New analog guitarsynth like the GR-700, but with better tracking please!

Started by strengdal3, May 03, 2017, 08:58:53 PM

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admin

IMHO - GR-700 was not a " huge improvement over its predecessor (GR-300 )
http://www.joness.com/gr300/sound-on-sound-history-of-roland-99.htm


Note the GR-700 has nearly the highest latency of any guitar synth product  Roland ever made - latency is only  eclipsed by the Roland GM 70

http://www.joness.com/gr300/MIDI_SPEED.htm



Brak(E)man

Quote from: admsustainiac on August 07, 2017, 12:50:15 PM
Note the GR-700 has nearly the highest latency of any guitar synth product  Roland ever made - latency is only  eclipsed by the Roland GM 70

It's true but playable,  IMO the gr55 trig is way worse.
The 700 have a really nice sound and the Gr707 is
a great guitar, and looks like a million ¥
I'm holding on to mine with a very firm grip
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

GuitarBuilder

Quote from: admsustainiac on August 07, 2017, 12:50:15 PM
IMHO - GR-700 was not a " huge improvement over its predecessor (GR-300 )
http://www.joness.com/gr300/sound-on-sound-history-of-roland-99.htm


Note the GR-700 has nearly the highest latency of any guitar synth product  Roland ever made - latency is only  eclipsed by the Roland GM 70

http://www.joness.com/gr300/MIDI_SPEED.htm




I don't get it - the GR-300 is not a MIDI synth.  How can it have latency?
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

chrish

My guess  is Guitar Pitch to control voltage triggering analogue oscillators and then that wave form getting it's saw tops chopped off results in analog tracking time.



My Hope Is that analog  electronic engineers will figure a way to take a hex distortion circuit and shape Distortion circuit waves into other usable oscillator waveforms,, without actually triggering an analog oscillator (VCO).

Passing the guitar string through an analog distortion circuit is like directly playing with light. The guitar string becomes the oscillator that gets further shaped into a distortion waveform.

That spicetone hex pedal was an eye opener.

admin

Dr joness measured the time it takes to pluck a string and output an audio signal

The GR-300 had very low latency
Latency occurs on any instrument-and not restricted to guitar to MIDI systems  , even pipe organs have latency

chrish

Quote from: admsustainiac on August 08, 2017, 04:42:58 AM
Dr joness measured the time it takes to pluck a string and output an audio signal

The GR-300 had very low latency
Latency occurs on any instrument-and not restricted to guitar to MIDI systems  , even pipe organs have latency
and even the human brain has latency in interpreting a perception.

chlorinemist

Futuresonus Parva

+

Fishman Tripleplay

=

what you want and more.



Also consider the Spicetone 6Appeal, another robust analog guitar synthesizer that pushes the strings-as-oscillators method to its limit.

GuitarBuilder

Quote from: admsustainiac on August 08, 2017, 04:42:58 AM
Dr joness measured the time it takes to pluck a string and output an audio signal

The GR-300 had very low latency
Latency occurs on any instrument-and not restricted to guitar to MIDI systems  , even pipe organs have latency

His data was erratic - if you look at Wayne's raw sample numbers:

http://www.joness.com/gr300/MIDI_SPEED.htm

You'll see that individual strings vary from 0.8ms to 6.6ms; I think he's at the limit of being able to measure the GR-300.  He chose the average (3.3ms), but one could just as easily argue for the shortest time (0.8ms).  Because of the analog circuitry, the GR-300's response should be essentially instantaneous (like the GR-100), with propagation delays of fractional microseconds.
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

MrSparkle

So here's my 2c. It's been a long round-about with this guitar synth for me. Quick list of what I own(ed):

Guitars: Roland G505, G303, Ibanez RG1520G, Fender GK-ready Strat, numerous GK3 loaded guitars, a Fly retrofitted with a GK-2 internal, Multiac SA (RMC), etc.

Been around the block. Not to mention a slew of the VG/GR/GP/GM and Axon boxes.

First things first -- I think the 24-pin cable itself is a sturdier beast. I like the clamps, I don't like the 13-pin connection.

Secondly, I think the original Roland G-guitar control layout absolutely smokes the 13-pin GK lay out. The touch vibrato, VCF cutoff/resonance controls, blend knob, master volume, and the hex distortion... the controls are what make the guitar unique and more expressive.I know that you can program the GK buttons in a variety of ways, but it's just not the same organic response.

Now onto the synth tones... I'm a fan of the GR-1 and the ideas that the VG99/GP10 have going on. I use the GP10 on all solo/duo acoustic gigs where I want octave-down E/A strings (for bass accompaniment), and the convenience of having EQ/volume and some other aux. effects in one tiny box is brilliant.

Beyond this, I played around a lot with the VG99/VG8 but frankly, when you A/B the GR-300... the analog tone and response simply crushes any of the digital algorithms the GR55/GP10/VG99 put out. And the 300 isn't entirely a one-trick pony; the filters and pitch tuners give you tonal palettes to play with.

But yes, it does have a sonic sig., and Metheny forever claimed it. :P I agree with OP. It would be wonderful if the GR-700 concept was rebooted, because it the 700 has way more sonic possibilities than the 300.

However, this is my take: Roland R&D will never invest in guitar synths like they did in the 80s. That was a golden era, and the build is absolutely wild. The GR-55/GP-10 are selling decently well, and we'll just see more stream-lined boxes like that. I don't anticipate they'll make some revelations with the guitar modeling. I tried hard to get the acoustic/12-string/L5 stuff sounding cool and usable... tried IRs, amps, some post-analog fx boxes and EQ, but frankly in the end, it sounds so plastic compared to the real things (hollow bodies). Life's too short to sound plastic and trying to add effects to compensate.

The original G-series guitars are where it's at. They're synth guitars, and they did it right. I'm really curious in trying the GR-700, to see how bad the latency is. I feel like latency is less important than accuracy and expression. I always had a hunch that the GM-70 'felt' better than the later stuff (GI-20, Axon), even though it was slower.

chrish

 I agree with  a lot of what you say. I also think analog has better feel and sound however I wonder if  that's just because our brain connections were formed using analog.

I have to admit the acoustic  guitar simulation in the VG 99 sounds really good especially when mixed with some analog magnetic pickup.

The distortion in the Vg99  can't hold a candle to the analog spice tone 6appeal.

I just sent this email to spice tone the other day.

hello I just wanted to say that I'm really enjoying my spicetone 6 appeal.

I was wondering if you guys are working on any future hex products?

Personally I think that a recreation of the Roland gr300 from the late 1980s would be a big seller.

Many of the guitar players that I know through my Forum interactions are looking for that Pat Metheny horn sound and the only thing available now are digital Recreations that Roland puts out.

The digital Recreations come close but they're not analogue and don't have the analogue sound or feel that your spice tone distortion pedal has.

At any rate I will definitely be a customer of your next analogue hex product whatever form it takes.

admin

Still can't understand the title of this thread -

"analog like GR 700 ") ????

Would be better if it said "analog like GR-300"

GR-700 had zero analog -it was strictly a guitar to midi unit based on the JX-3P keyboard ,  with high latency

chrish

Quote from: admsustainiac on September 08, 2017, 08:58:36 PM
Still can't understand the title of this thread -

"analog like GR 700 ") ????

Would be better if it said "analog like GR-300"

GR-700 had zero analog -it was strictly a guitar to midi unit based on the JX-3P keyboard ,  with high latency
my understanding is that the gr 700 was midi triggering two DCO's per string.

My understanding of a digitally controlled oscillator is that the front end is digital pitch information and that information is used  for the analog waveshaper end of the oscillator.

From there the analog signal passes to an analog filter and so on in all analog subtractive synthesizer architecture.

But let me do some more research to check what I said.

chrish

This is from dr. Joness site about the gr 700.

"If you are unfamiliar with the JX3P, it is a six-voice, two-DCO-per-voice, conventional analogue polysynth"

So gr 300 pitch to voltage controlling voltage controlled oscillators

The gr 700 pitch to MIDI controlling digitally controlled oscillators


http://www.joness.com/gr300/sound-on-sound-history-of-roland-99.htm

And this article explains the difference between DCO and a VCO and how they work.

from r/synthesizers



Elantric

I know how they work - and have spent lots of time with both GR-700 and GR-300  - each are completely different architecture

the GR-300 with its ultrafast near zero latency was a real tool

meanwhile the GR-700 's latency I found completely distracting, was only good for playing Billie idol "eyes without a face" -synth pad backing tones

You never get anywhere near a Pat Methany  / King Crimson "Discipline"  GR-300 tone and fast response to your touch experience  using a GR-700

chrish

Quote from: Elantric on September 08, 2017, 10:21:08 PM
I know how they work - and have spent lots of time with both GR-700 and GR-300  - each are completely different architecture

the GR-300 with its ultrafast near zero latency was a real tool

meanwhile the GR-700 's latency I found completely distracting, was only good for playing Billie idol "eyes without a face" -synth pad backing tones

You never get anywhere near a Pat Methany  / King Crimson "Discipline"  GR-300 tone and fast response to your touch experience  using a GR-700
yes the gr 700 has those classic 80s cheese sounds but it is analog cheese. ;D

I was responding to this quote "GR-700 had zero analog"

"The JX-3P shares the same great analog filters and VCAs as the JUNO and even the JUPITER series. Just like the JUNO, it's a six voice polyphonic feeding digitally controlled oscillators (DCOs) through analog filters, envelopes and amps."

http://www.vintagesynth.com/roland/jx3p.php

So would you have any concerns about purchasing a 30 +year old gr300?

Elantric

The GR-300 is relatively serviceable  - as with most old electronics , it the  electrolytic caps that fail, but all caps are still available today  be replaced and anyone with  electronics experience can maintain the power supplies

However, there are many ICs on the GR-300 that have been "end of life"  for years - but same as the unobtainium ICs in a 1984 GR-700  / JX-3P /MKS-30 ( all three share the same Synth engine design and all three employ the PG-200 programmer
http://exellon.net/book/The_Complete_Synthesizer.pdf
http://www.analogindustries.com/b1764/



https://reverb.com/p/roland-pg-200-controller-for-jx-3p-and-mks-30
( hmm - maybe I should sell mine)

http://www.vintagesynth.com/roland/mks30.php
The MKS-30 is a MIDI rack module version of the JX-3P with some enhancements. It is an analog synth with two DCO's (digitally controlled oscillators) per voice, six voice polyphony, it responds to velocity, and has 64 internal and 64 cartridge memory patches. The typical assortment of analog filter, envelope, LFO and oscillator sections are here with easy and straight-forward programming. It can be controlled by the PG-200 programmer for easier hands-on tweaking. Never quite gaining as much popularity as the JUNO series synths, this synth is as good as inexpensive analog gets! It is used by Cirrus.

JX-3P is on lots of Oingo Boingo hits

and the rare 24 pin connectors

All service notes for both are here
http://www.joness.com/gr300/
http://www.joness.com/gr300/service/G-303_G-808_GR-300_SERVICE_NOTES.pdf
http://www.joness.com/gr300/service/GR-700_SERVICE_NOTES.pdf


Making the Roland 24-pin connector for the GR-300
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=11980.0




Make a 24pin to 13 pin converter box


15 years ago the undisputed VG/GR custom shop was TSC / Proix in Japan
http://web.archive.org/web/20050203003125/http://www.proix.com:80/


http://web.archive.org/web/20081017163229/http://www.proix.com/accessory.html

http://web.archive.org/web/20050203183454/http://www.proix.com:80/accessory.html






aliensporebomb

Bill Ruppert found out the key to getting the GR-300 in the VG-99 to respond is crank the living daylights out of GK sens then the thing sits up and barks.  And I've found that to be true.  But dang, the 300 is fast fast fast for triggering like nothing else - see link:
https://soundcloud.com/aliensporebomb/bleargh6-vg99-gr300

And I've found some more new programming breakthrus in the 99 that help the distortions along. 

But yeah, some of the older gear's "commitment" and marketing are part of what made them succeed.  When the 99 came out it was two ads and then nothing.  And I never did see an ad for the GP-10 though I did see an ad for the GR-55 a few times.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

chrish

Quote from: aliensporebomb on September 09, 2017, 06:41:33 AM
Bill Ruppert found out the key to getting the GR-300 in the VG-99 to respond is crank the living daylights out of GK sens then the thing sits up and barks.  And I've found that to be true.  But dang, the 300 is fast fast fast for triggering like nothing else - see link:
https://soundcloud.com/aliensporebomb/bleargh6-vg99-gr300

And I've found some more new programming breakthrus in the 99 that help the distortions along. 

But yeah, some of the older gear's "commitment" and marketing are part of what made them succeed.  When the 99 came out it was two ads and then nothing.  And I never did see an ad for the GP-10 though I did see an ad for the GR-55 a few times.
I saw Bills tip on one of the old threads (there really are some old threads here worth studying) and tried cranking the sensitivity up to 100 but that just resulted in the sensitivity meters Maxxing out due to noise.

So I just cranked back the sensitivity until The  sensitivity Meters registered zero noise.

The noise could be from the fact that I had to mount the GK 2 pickup on the pickup ring of my old early 80s Ibanez artist. I remember Elantic talking about how the magnetic pickups on the guitar can create interference with the GK pickups. I didn't think that was a problem until I maxed out the sensitivity meters.

Elantic thanks for that run down on concerns for old electronics.

Makes me wonder how many GR300's Metheny keeps around for spare parts.


Brak(E)man

swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

chrish

Quote from: Elantric on September 08, 2017, 11:13:40 PM
The GR-300 is relatively serviceable  - as with most old electronics , it the  electrolytic caps that fail, but all caps are still available today  be replaced and anyone with  electronics experience can maintain the power supplies

However, there are many ICs on the GR-300 that have been "end of life"  for years - but same as the unobtainium ICs in a 1984 GR-700  / JX-3P /MKS-30 ( all three share the same Synth engine design and all three employ the PG-200 programmer
http://exellon.net/book/The_Complete_Synthesizer.pdf
http://www.analogindustries.com/b1764/



https://reverb.com/p/roland-pg-200-controller-for-jx-3p-and-mks-30
( hmm - maybe I should sell mine)

http://www.vintagesynth.com/roland/mks30.php
The MKS-30 is a MIDI rack module version of the JX-3P with some enhancements. It is an analog synth with two DCO's (digitally controlled oscillators) per voice, six voice polyphony, it responds to velocity, and has 64 internal and 64 cartridge memory patches. The typical assortment of analog filter, envelope, LFO and oscillator sections are here with easy and straight-forward programming. It can be controlled by the PG-200 programmer for easier hands-on tweaking. Never quite gaining as much popularity as the JUNO series synths, this synth is as good as inexpensive analog gets! It is used by Cirrus.

JX-3P is on lots of Oingo Boingo hits

and the rare 24 pin connectors

All service notes for both are here
http://www.joness.com/gr300/
http://www.joness.com/gr300/service/G-303_G-808_GR-300_SERVICE_NOTES.pdf
http://www.joness.com/gr300/service/GR-700_SERVICE_NOTES.pdf


Making the Roland 24-pin connector for the GR-300
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=11980.0




Make a 24pin to 13 pin converter box


15 years ago the undisputed VG/GR custom shop was TSC / Proix in Japan
http://web.archive.org/web/20050203003125/http://www.proix.com:80/


http://web.archive.org/web/20081017163229/http://www.proix.com/accessory.html

http://web.archive.org/web/20050203183454/http://www.proix.com:80/accessory.html






I found this over on muffwiggler and thought it was interesting. Someone reverse-engineered the voltage controlled filter IC. The Roland IR 3109.

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=126397&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=

Elantric

QuoteI found this over on muffwiggler and thought it was interesting. Someone reverse-engineered the voltage controlled filter IC. The Roland IR 3109.

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=126397&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=

Excellent find - might want to make a PDF of that!

GuitarBuilder

"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

admin

thanks - these bits of crucial bits of information tend to get lost  - or held for ransom by PhotoBucket

Elantric


jim-analog


Greetings,

If you would be so kind as to elaborate on specifics of the EuroRack modular system optimized for gtr that you are working with, I'd be very much appreciative. Thank you!

Regards, Jim


Quote from: GuitarBuilder on June 09, 2017, 09:41:56 AM
I for one am experimenting with analog Eurorack synths designed specifically for guitar, with zero latency.