GP-10 - DSP Alt Tune Anomalies

Started by djidoe, February 25, 2015, 12:27:51 PM

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djidoe

Hi, I have a big problem using the GP10 : When I virtually tune the guitar a whole step, I get these bad artifacts on the D string.

Listen to the mp3 in the link please : https://www.dropbox.com/s/gucw6irnrf6t3nz/Artifact%20GP10.mp3?dl=0

Is it a problem with GK3 or GP10 ?

Someone else got that problem and get rid of it ?

I'm very disappointed :(

Elantric

#1
I assume you are using a GK-3 ( not Piezo system)

What type guitar?

What String gauge?

The GK-3 is extremely important to get set up correctly ( height, verify strings are not slapping the top of the Gk-3 PU, etc)

In 2014 I have much better results with all my 13 pin gear using my 2013 Godin LGX-SA with recent RMC Piezo electronics. Older "pre-Summer 2011" era  Godins are not equal IMHO. and GK-3's tend to move over time, and need attention to setup periodically     



djidoe

Yes using GK3 (internally installed)

Charvel w/Floyd Rose

EXL 110

Strings are not slapping on the pickup...

Elantric

#3
QuoteCharvel w/Floyd Rose

Strings are not slapping on the pickup...

Might want to check -

The FLoyd pivots the entire bridge saddles up and down, which means the Gk-3 PU distance from Strings  is a constant moving target as a result of any movement of the tremolo bar

+ Extreme plucking of the strings can create a "diving board" b-o-i-n-g sound on most Floyds

Elantric

#4
Upload this specific GP-10 patch  - so others can try
(Id be freaking out if my GP-10 delivered that behavior!) 

Instructions for GR-55 patch uploading to VGuitarForums

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3260.msg61198#msg61198

Just upload on this same thread.

gumtown

Try adding some dampening material, in particular, to the springs on the Floyd Rose.
Maybe under the strings forward of the nut too, sounds like a resonance occurring.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Spider

Strange sound...

For me pre 2011 Godin with GP-10 are similar to GK. I hear some warbling (or... spring like sound...) in some open "folk" position on acoustic guitar but I can eliminate it using "PU Phase' inversion and (more important) lowering "Piezo Tone L" parameter by -5/-7 dB in GK settings.

Elantric

#7
QuoteTry adding some dampening material, in particular, to the springs on the Floyd Rose.
Maybe under the strings forward of the nut too, sounds like a resonance occurring.

+1

I suspect this is the root of your issue

The un-dampened rear springs on your tremolo are getting picked up by the GK-3, and creating low frequency dissonance that is being Alt tuned along with your strings, and becomes noticeable on the GP-10 output as your string vibration decays

Many use Heat shrink on the springs as dampers

http://www.snapagogo.com/uploads/source/1812013/1372711246_1843756188_P1020106.jpg     

other strategies

The tremolo springs on some guitars ring so loud when playing that they're audible through the amp, and add all sorts of unsavory dissonant overtones to your notes. This is a good cure.

LinzHenderson

Just an idea, but your GK-3 isn't mounted in reverse, or GK settings set to reverse? One of my GK guitars has a reverse mounted pickup, and I noticed a similar problem when I forgot to switch settings once. Sounded bad (obviously) even without alt tuning though, so probably not your problem.

djidoe

Hi !

So I have sold my Charvel guitar to buy a Godin XTSA...

I made the system settings in GP-10 (PIEZO R... and everything)

The digital artifacts are always there, and particularly annoying on C power chord (5th string 3 fret).

So I asked my seller to try a new GP-10 to see if mine was defective... And NO it was not defective... The same problems occured on the new GP-10.

I even tried to damp my tremolo springs in the Godin XTSA... not even better

I'm stucked :(

Elantric

#10
Post MP3 audio example (better a YouTube Video

and GP-10 patch example of your problem

QuoteSo I have sold my Charvel guitar to buy a Godin XTSA...I made the system settings in GP-10 (PIEZO R... and everything)

What specific year is the Godin xtSA?
Read the complete Godin xtSA thread
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3912.0


I recommend adding a  SuperVee Mag-lock to the Godin xtSA  for Tremolo Stability, improved Guitar to MIDI tracking , and solve diving board noises on each plucked string.




https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3912.0

During the Christmas break I finally had some time to play with the GR-55 and my new Godin xTSA RMC pickup guitar.

I'm using these settings below with much success using my 2012 Godin xTSA (RMC) and stock GR-55 (rev 1.50 firmware ) and Boss GP-10

Thanks Jim Williams!



On both my xTSA'a - the COSM Modleling sounds most excellent .

This is AFTER I follow Jim Williams Piezo Setup.

--
In System, Set the GK PU type to:
PU type ;  PIEZO R
Scale :  ST
PU phase : NORMAL
PU direction : NORMAL
S1/S2 position : NORMAL
MORM PU gain : 0 dB
PIEZO TONE  LOW  :    -2
PIEZO TONE HIGH  :   +3

"DIS"
10.0 mm all strings (does not matter GR-55 ignores this for all Piezo PU selections)

"SEN"
Set the sensitivities for all strings to "50" average (+/-5  - that is all my strings have sensitivity set in the range between 45-55 .

"VEL"
Velocity Dynamics :  2
Play-Feel         :  2 (may vary depending on how you play synth tones)
Low-Velocity Cut  :  8-9

"NUA"
Nuance Dynamics   :  4
Nuance Trim       :  4

"DOW"
Shift   :   0
===============


Be sure you are using Headphones when forming opinion on the sounds  / patches of your Roland gear.!!


Ive voiced prolifically on this forum my preference for GK-3 type pickups for use with Roland COSM Modeling systems , but there have been some minor incremental developments  / improvements in the RMC electronics over the years. I admit bulk of my prior opinions on RMC piezo pickups were based upon a 1998 era RMC Piezo Polydrive 1 install in a Les Paul feeding  a Roland VG-8, where I could always "hear" the underlying RMC piezo characteristics in the VG-8's output, regardless of any patch or tweaking.

In contrast, the GR-55 with firmware 1.50 , and using Jim Williams Piezo setup suggestions

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3965.msg53317#msg53317

and string sensitivity at an average of "50" for all strings with this new Godin xTSA - the GR-55 sounds wonderful. True the GR-300 preset still has low frequency handling noises and random noises, (the optional RMC OPT-01 sub filter board should cure this) -


In context when using only the 13 pin cable. The Godin's Normal Mag PU"S (Or Mono Piezo Signal  - depending on the guitar volume control settings) will  feed pin #7, on the 13 pin cable where the GR-55 can act as a "GT-100 like" COSM Amp Modeler. All audio output occurs at the GR-55 Stereo Output jacks.
My first order of business was modifying ALL GR-55 User Presets to enable the use of the Godin's Normal pickups and enable use of the three way "Guitar / Mix / Synth" switch on the Godin - and for me, thats where the magic of the GR-55 happens. Many factory GR-55 patches become 300% more useful.
For example, one GR-55 Xylophone patch had a great multitap delay that when used with only straight normal pickups becomes a wonderful world of great tone where the Roland COSM Amp modelling and effects can be appreciated.

I do think the only way to go with the GR-55 is to use an external stereo Volume pedal, and then dedicate the on board GR-55 Expression pedal to "pan / morph" different effects / tones within a single patch. I also find that the xTSA and RMC Piezos and GR-55's Acoustic Modeling sounds very excellent !

But I also notice that with little effort, palm Muting IS possible and get very close to the sound of the Normal pickups.  Finally having a working  "Guitar / Mix / Synth" switch on the Godin  allows instant verification and reality check on the COSM Guitar Modeling and for me opens up worlds of usefulness for the GR-55.     

djidoe

Thanx for helping,

Sorry but how to export a single patch ?

I'm using Boss Tone Studio for GP-10.

My Godin is year 2014.

Elantric

#12

Boss GP-10 Frequently Asked Questions
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=11796.msg85343#msg85343

GP-10 BOSS TONE STUDIO HELP
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=11880.msg85721#msg85721


INSTRUCTIONS FOR BOSS TONE STUDIO for GP-10 (July 2014 ) PDF
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=11879.0;attach=9641


To export patch data as a *.tsl file from BOSS TONE STUDIO for GP-10 (
1. Click to select the LiveSet to Export
2. Click Export button at the top of the screen.
3. The dialogue box appears. Input a file name and destination folder and click Save.
4. When the message Completed. appears, click OK to finish.
* tsl file is created in the folder set.


How to Upload Patches to VGuitarforums
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=13341.0

djidoe

#13
Here is my patch..

Alt tuning -2...

Without alt tuning it is tracking perfectly.

Happens frequently (almost exclusively) on C power chord.

Here is a wav file of the problem :

https://www.dropbox.com/s/hu6j6egr6gjpx7e/Artifact%20GP10.wav?dl=0


Many thanx again

Elantric

#14
I agree - sounds identical to the bad sounding Charvel of last time

Assume  - No drummers are nearby bangin on your Guitar strings with a pair of drum sticks?



and FWIW - I never hear those type of anomalies you are experiencing with ANY of my DSP Alt Tuning Modeling systems (Line6, Roland, Antares)

Yet you have consistent  / nearly identical results with either Piezo or GK-3  Type Hex PU's (  perhaps its your playing technique? Post a YouTube Video?)


I'd review your GP-10 *.tsl Patch settings, but I cant right now


Elantric

#16
Unplugged -

what is your guitar tuned too?

Is it in Normal tuning?




For example, if "unplugged" - you tune down all strings 1/2 step ( Eb, Ab, C#, F#, Bb, Eb)

or (worse) a whole step to "D" (D, G, C, F, A, D)  - the DSP Alt Tunings on Boss GP-10  WILL exhibit the anomalies you are experiencing 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guitar_tunings

djidoe


Elantric

And you are DSP Alt Tuning down 2 whole steps -

so "play C chord" , and Boss GP-10 outputs an 'A" chord ?

shawnb

#19
Is this the only patch with that behavior?

What happens if you return the tuning to normal on that patch?  Does the problem go away?

This really feels familiar...   I don't have a GP-10, but some COSM voices produce weird noises when certain parameters are very high, eg, 'body' on accoustics.   My first thought is to review the cosm parameters & back off anything that is maxed out.

(It reminds me of this old gr-55 thread... https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8305.msg59240#msg59240)
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

djidoe

Elantric : C (-2 semitones) gives you Bb

shawnb : Patch with normal tuning gives no artifacts.

I'm using the GP10 with no amps or fx... I'm using it only for detuning, primarly Les Paul with -2 or even -4 and some drop D with -2 or -4 semitones.

I run it through an AXEFX2 for modeling.

I'm really desesperate...


shawnb

Is it noticeable without the axfx?
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Majiken

Can anybody with similar equipment reproduce the effect?  Djidoe, do you have a backstop on your trem, and have you dampened everything possible including at the headstock? What if you physically detune the LP -2 (one full step, right?) and run it through the GP10 with and without modeling- no negative effect?

What is "almost exclusively" at the C on string 5, fret 3? That is the "resonant" note, and it is much better but still noticeable at Db, for example? What happens when you only play C-G, or G-C, still occur?

This is a toughie! Good analysis so far, the ring around the failure needs to be tightened so it is 100% reproducible- I'd say the problem is in the box, but others don't seem to be having trouble, so that makes me wonder.... maybe also try Shawnb's suggestion about lowering modeling settings at or close to max, maybe lower the sensitivity on the A string even further?
And, only based on hearsay, if you only use the GP10 for retunings and certain instrument models you might end up happier with the Antares....
You'll get there, and we will all be wiser!
Take what you need, put back a bit more, leave the place behind you better than it was before :-)

www.majiken.rocks

shawnb

Is this the D-string only?   As described in your first post?    If so, I suspect fret buzz. 
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

djidoe

The problem is there without a connection in the axefx, in headphones connected direct in the back of GP10, the problem is still there.

No fret buzz I assure you... Happen more frequently on 4th string (but happen less frequently on others strings).

I tried lowering/raising sensityvity... Nothing works

Tell me more about Antares, is ATG-1 is out ? I found very little info about that product...

Also, no store seems to sell Antares products in province of Quebec...