Digitech Trio / Digitech Trio Plus

Started by Elantric, February 03, 2015, 04:27:03 PM

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Carbonius

#125
I went out and bought one of these from a music store that has a 30 day return policy. There's only so much you can figure out by reading every single word printed on the internet!

Using the amp out and the mixer out certainly gets rid of any emulation to either signal. However, the drum set does not sound as good as when you use headphones out. When using headphones out the drum set has various parts of the kit that are panned. It gives a much fuller sound. However, the guitar signal then has the emulation on it. As soon as you use the headphone jack, the other 2 jacks are muted. I think all outupts should be left on for maximum usage. A switch to turn off the emulation would be best.

I tried using only amp out as DigiTech suggested to me, but the drums sounded substantially worse (to my ears). The emulation on the bass & drums is to make it so them sound good through a traditional guitar amp. The cymbals sounded thin and harsh

Having the Looper built into this pedal is just awesome. You can program your music and get the bass line set the way you want it. Then shut it down and set it so that it counts you in with drumsticks, starts the backing band playing and also starts recording on your Loop all at the same time. The loop then automatically stops when your recorded music comes to an end and repeats. It takes all the hassle you have in nailing the start-and-stop points for your loops. Another Plus,  it's stores your loops  in the song.  If you don't like the bass line you could just record your own and it saves it.  You could also add rhythm guitar and it saves it.

BUT... there is absolutely no way to have stereo drums without the Loops being fed through the same signal with speaker emulation. The only way I can get a really nice acoustic tone out of this is to undo the speaker emulation EQ with an EQ on my guitar signal before it enters the Trio Plus. Of course completely undoing it is impossible, but I could improve it.

supernicd

I didn't even realize the drums were stereo when using the headphone out. I don't think I've ever used headphones with it. I generally just plug the mix out into a mixer and pipe it out through some studio monitors. For me it's really a practice tool.  I don't use it for performances so I guess it doesn't bother me that much. Would have been really nice if they'd have let you select whether to apply cab sim or not though.

Wonder if that could be done via a firmware update somehow...  just as a guess it is probably a software thing rather than some dedicated chip doing the sim.
Strat w/ GK-3, Godin LGXT
VG-99, GR-55, GP-10
---------------------------------------------------------------

Carbonius

Good point, about software vs chip. Hopefully a firmware update can fix it. One of those "hold down this when plugging in the unit to disable that" kind of thing.

Do you know how to stop a loop with layers when the whole band is playing??

I can't figure it out. You can undo a loop by holding the loop button for 2+ seconds. But once you've added a layer, holding the button only undoes that 1 layer. There's nothing in the pdf manual about it. When you have no band playing, you can stop and start the loop with the band button. But when the band is playing, that stops the whole band, not just your loop. So far my only option would be to turn the volume of the loop on or off with the rotary switch. That's not ideal live.

JeffTronics

I have yet to check out giveabits python development to extract the audio and midi data from the Digitech Trio Plus's SD Card.

He's been posting on page two of: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-many-guitars-so-little-time/1083153-digitech-trio-plus-warning-2.html?highlight=trio

github page is here: https://github.com/giveabit/Trio-Plus-Data/blob/master/README.md

I have been investing a lot of time with the Trio with my VL3 setup.
http://support.tc-helicon.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/115000231727-VL3-and-DigiTech-Trio-Plus-Setup-and-Looping-Knowledge-Share

Since the VL3 looper record time is generous, I have been setting separate loop tracks for the Bass and Drums. And yes, some of the Drums via headphone jacks are panned. Pressing "Simple Bass" during playback can add some nice variations to drums and bass and you can hear the drum effects.

I too would like to bypass the emulation since it compresseses the output. Perhaps the extraction utility from giveabit offers higher quality for post processing the files in the looper or DAW playback.

My wish is for Digitech to developm something more flexible but not sure how in demand this cool like box is for them to bring it to the next level. They touted in their Trio Plus videos, they listened to their users.. so hopefully they are getting feedback. Surprises me since they don't have a forum setup for their site.

Since I use the VL3 looper, I get around the Digitech's looper limitations. However, one thing I tried to get around the Trio's looper undo issue is, record the first loop as silent. Don't play anything. Than, the next loop layer set you can at least Delete without having to Stop and Delete, which you have to for the first initial layer.

I have BIAB, but can play with it, the same time I play my guitar.

Carbonius

Hi JeffTronics.

Although Digitech doesn't have a forum, they do respond to email. In fact, they respond in hours! They told me that there is currently no way to stop a loop once you have started it, but they are thinking of adding this function in future firmware updates. I've asked them to add the traditional double-press action to stop loops. I also asked them to put in a bypass feature for speaker cabinet emulation.

I would encourage you to email them with your requests. The more people that email them, the more likely that we will get the requested updates. You can email them by clicking on this link http://digitech.com/en-US/support (only info with an aster-ix next to it is required for the email to go).

JeffTronics

Thank you for the suggestion to email them. Here is a copy of what I emailed them. Sharing with fellow Trio owners.

I mostly use the Trio in tabletop mode with a foot-switch in a live setting to Jam/Improv with because I do find it useful to access both drums and bass knobs while playing, and do not want to keep bending down to make changes while playing.

My normal use of the Trio is this. After teaching the trio band, I frequently press the simple bass mode and hold the part button down for tempo changes in the current style. This gives me subtle changes to what the trio band is playing and keeps it sounding interesting while I play along.

While playing...

* I Switch between suggested styles for in the same genre (green led indicated ones), to further give a sense of realism to the overall playing. I am familiar enough with the Trio to plan ahead and know what genre and styles work well together. 

* I will also fade in and out of drums and bass for guitar solo's with each. 

Pop and Jazz genres are my favorite because I think the bass and drum kits sound much better than some of the other genres and styles.


If DigiTech is working on another version or can implement some of the following in a Firmware update for the current one, I would appreciate it.

My suggestions, in no particular order.

* Support for more foot switch controls (i.e. 6 switches) -  It would be nice to be able to navigate between the bass modes, toggle the part-hold button (when you hold part for the change in tempo), and navigate between different styles of the selected genre; hands free while playing.

* MIDI Sync - In my case I would like to sync to my VoiceLive3 and BeatBuddy. While both devices already have a looper and drums, the ability to sync the Trio with them would offer me greater flexibility and creativity.

* Volume Levels  - I noticed when changing the 3/4 timing in styles, in some genres, the drums are overwhelming louder. It would nice to attenuate these differences in all genres and styles so there are no surprises when changing the style. The Levels should be consistent across all genres and styles

* Looper Delete options - Allow for deleting even the first loop layer, without having to stop the band.

* Tempo LED Indicator - it would nice to know what the current tempo is and display MIDI sync information, if it were to be implemented.

* Drums and Bass Patches -  give the ability to choose what drum kits and type of bass to use for any genre. Even if this were an option via the software to customize the unit and specify what type of drums and bass I prefer for any style.

* Drum Kits panned - I would like to see more drum kits that are panned. Having stereo drums offers more realism than when they are only centered.

* Genre - Add Reggae

* I/O Options - Stereo is extremely important to me.
* Please give the option or remove the emulation on the headphone jack.

* Fx  Insert I/O. Have L/R support for Stereo

* DAW and Software interface support - It would be nice to have the files in a more familiar and accessible format. Especially if I want to post process them in my DAW

Carbonius

Awesome JeffTronics. They are currently considering different things for a future firmware update, no ETA on that.

In addition to email, I found you can also chat with them. I had to wait 5-10 minutes for someone to get to me, but then they were dedicated to me. If you turn your audio up, it notifies you whenever they post.

COPY & PASTE?? One very important thing I asked them about was the ability to move and/or copy a recorded part. Sometimes it is quite hard to teach the Trio a part. There's times where I want the exact same music, but just more intense. I can't reach down and touch the PART button while performing. A basic copy and paste function would be great. Any ways, there's no way to currently do it. Even in the "Trio Manager". Is there anyone that has found a way to access the internal files of the recorded songs??

JeffTronics, I saw your link to the guys extracting audio on the other forum, but I didn't see what I am looking for there. I should state, I am new to all this! It may have been there and I just didn't understand it. At any rate, obviously the unit saves parts separately. Theoretically, you should be able to copy them and move them just as in any other type of programming.

It kind of sucks that looped audio stops immediately when you switch songs. I understand why it does, and there are advantages to the current system. I just was hoping I could have some looped music play while I switch songs rather than have dead air. I guess I need another external looper, even a very basic one. Nice thing about the TRIO looper is that loops are saved to the part. I wanted a backing track for a bridge section of a song and it worked great. As the sequence went to that part, my backing track automatically played.

JeffTronics

QuoteIs there anyone that has found a way to access the internal files of the recorded songs??

I think the guy working on the extraction tool, is the only way I see now. And, I too have not have the opportunity to try it out.

Thanks again for nudging me to email them. They responded today and offered me a position with their research and development team - ha ha. kidding. But they did thank me, and will forward my suggestions to their dev team.

Maybe they have something bigger and better in the works along the lines for what we are making noise about.

Tombsy

Hi, just joined these forums because of this interesting discussion on the Trio Plus. I love the machine, have been using it live with mixed results but I definitely think it's got massive potential. Here is an email I just sent to Digitech Support:

Hi Digitech Support / Development team,

Just wanted to leave some user feedback / feature requests for the Digitech Trio+ Band Creator.

Overall - a fantastic pedal, one of my favorite pieces of musical equipment I've owned to date. Finally allows me to control drums and multiple instruments in a live situation and feels very musical. Genius integration of the looper, thanks for making it so easy to sync the timing and lay down the tracks. Also the addition of Intensity gave much more dynamic range.

Things I'd love in a Firmware update for the Trio+ that would make it perfect for live use, all relate to use of the FS3X footswitch:

- Ability to toggle Intensity via the footswitch. On so many songs, I have to teach the Trio+ two parts which are identical beat-wise except one is normal, one intense (for a chorus or bridge). I'd rather just control this live by foot, would have a more musical "feel" about just changing it on the fly too
- Ability to have an "accent hit" (mainly cymbal crash) from the footswitch. Your closest rival, BeatBuddy, has this feature and it really would be useful to embellish the main rhythm with completely free-time, dynamic cymbal accents.
- Have a Pause/Play feature on the footswitch which pauses the current part (with a cymbal crash) and restarts it at the beginning of the part. This is more important when a sequence isn't programmed, and parts stop abruptly in a way no real drummer would ever stop a section. Sometimes I've found it would be good *not* to sequence certain songs, so there are no rules about where the band can take the song live, except it needs a crash whenever a drum part stops / pauses.
- Have all existing and new footswitch features user-assignable and inter-changeable via Trio Manager (saved within each song). The existing pre-set configurations are too rigid and it is inconvenient to unplug and plug the footswitch back in during a live performance. For example, I personally would like Intensity, Pause/Start and Accent Hit on my configuration for most songs, with Alt Time or Mute Bass replacing one of these on different songs.

Thanks for your time and consideration,

Carbonius

Great email Tombsy. I was thinking about an "intensity switch" after I emailed them, glad you mentioned it. Also, excellent idea about having switch assignment saved to each song.

After using this live, I really want the ability to switch songs with my feet. Currently I have to stop playing then carefully turn the rotary knob. Sometimes it jumps 5 banks when I move it once, so I move it back, then it jumps 2, all while I have dead air because I can't play and do this all at the same time. An up & down button would be ideal, but that takes up to much space when there are so few switches. I would be happy with a switch the advances forwards only. I just have to save my set in consecutive order via the Trio manager ahead of time. I know there would still be time lost while the unit loads, but at least I could have both hands on the guitar to play while it's happening.

I would have to give up a switch on the FS3X for that to work. I would give up the looper as I am mostly using pre-recorded loops in parts as backing tracks. If I really need looping for a certain song, I could put the Trio on the ground. From left to right I want BAND; SONG; PART. Having the PART button in the middle is not good. It's too easy to bump the other 2 buttons.

In "Table Top" mode I would prefer LOOP; BAND; PART (from left to right). I only need BAND live twice a song, but in need PART as much as 20 times in one song. Having PART in the middle is cumbersome when I am focusing on playing.  I liked sequencing the parts, but it locks me in as far as my performance is concerned. Having user-assignable footswitches saved per song would be ideal.

I forwarded similar comments and positive feedback to Digitech for their consideration.

Jimmyward

What i would like. click band to start learning part 1, then with one click start learn part 2. that way button one footswitch for part 1 and another for part 2, that way if a song is requested that you didn't have program in. you could play the verse then chorus solo then have the drums and bass come in for the rest of the song. then you could use the trio for the entire show instead of just the songs you hoped would go over with the crowd.
I know my redneck logic is hard to follow, hope you'all understand. ???

Carbonius

The problem with making songs live is that it isn't too often that you can play a piece once and have it come out just right the first time. Not just that, the trio may decide you are playing jazz and give you some crazy beats when you were doing a rock some with some interesting hooks. Also, you can't play with all the extra notes and expect it to understand you. What I mean is, if you play the guitar part with all the fills, syncopation and off time accents, the Trio will get confused. You basically have to play like a really boring bass player and then enable the Trio to get busier afterwards. Sometimes I swear I got it right but the unit argues. 2nd or 3rd take usually gets the very basic parts.

I spent hours today trying to figure out how I could teach the unit a song. The beat structure per part was unusual. 15 beats here, 17 there, etc. It also had an unusual chord structure. It was certainly in 1 key, it just moved around strange. I had to do the math so I could feed the unit 12 or 16 beats. In the end I had to break some single parts into 2 separate parts, as the Trio just kept confusing them. I won in the end, but it was draining!

Good luck with it. It's a cool tool that's forced me to play cleaner and in better time.

JeffTronics

#137
I decided to make things interesting at my end. I'm probably not alone when I say, I also have a BeatBuddy and wouldn't it be nice to sync the DigitechTrio and BB. The Trio we know, does not support Midi. I recently purchased a SoundBiteMicro and having some success with it. It's handy and the more I experiment with it I can sync my Trio and BB.

http://www.redsound.com/

The site doesn't showcase much in terms of videos, but you can check the support PDF out. I will say, I had a very personable shopping experience since they are in the UK and handled my transaction via PayPal. The product arrived within 7 days, and the packaging was well done.

http://www.redsound.com/images/sbmicro-manual-v1.pdf

With a device like this I can see how it's in the live DJ's arsenal.

Trio Headphone out to the SoundbiteMicro Audio IN
BB MIDI to SoundBite Micro MIDI. They provide a special MIDI cable

The device has live beat detection coming from the Trio. You can see the Tempo on the BB adjusting accordingly. The device has additional features to allow you to manually get creative by creating loops and also dialing in the sync beat if it's off.

There is some drift sometimes and I think this happens more often when I include the Trio's Bass. There is some learning curve to pair up the appropriate BB style with the Trio. But the more I play it, I find some good matches. And, of course since BB's stereo imaging is better, you get a nice enhance mix between both devices.  Once I have both device going in sync I am pleasantly surprised it remains in sync when I decided to switch between different Trio styles. Also, instead of outputting the Trio's drums to the Micro, i turned it down and sent the Bass signal only. The SoundBite detects and establishes a beat form the Bass to!.

Anyone else experiment with syncing these two devices? if so, how would you do it in real time?



 

Elantric


mordecai

This may have been covered but can't seem to find it so I'll add to the thread. I have the standard Trio and want to connect it to the AUX input of the Voicelive 3. The issue is I don't want to have the guitar effects/cab etc so going out the headphone jack isn't an option.

I put a dumby plug in the guitar out and then want to have just the drums and bass go out the mixer output to my Aux in on the VL3. Here is the issue I just get one side of the L/R signal. I know it's a mono output on the Trio so I got a mono to mono 1/4" to 1/8" jack and it doesn't work still the same thing where  I have to just unplug it enough to get the full audio and that obviously isn't going to fly on a floor unit for long. So my question is what cable are people using to connect this unit to a stereo input? Am I missing something here or maybe I got the wrong tip type on the cable. For now I just am using a guitar cable into my Focusrite 18i8 and it's working fine but I am moving away from using the Focusrite and want to just use the VL3. All help appreciated.

JeffTronics

...always some trial and error when it comes to these connections. I would think on the VL3 1/8 Input, that end should be stereo, not mono. The trio side, the 1/4 should be Mono. Mono>Stereo

Something like this....(don't spend a lot of money, go cheap)

http://livewire-usa.com/ss5eq/

With my Trio Plus, I'm currently using the headphone out for the stereo panning but it's going to my DAW. My DAW interface goes to my VL3. For a period of time I went directly to VL3 from Trio's headphone out. There is some reduced dynamic range on both the Trio due to the cab sim, and the VL3's Aux In. Not sure if you noticed it sounds different when routing through VL3's Aux In. But I can live with it.

Jeff

mordecai

Thanks, that's what I needed.  You are correct in the lower fidelity with the aux in usage on the VL3. The internal limiter is part of it, when using headphones, some adjustments there and it helps. It does fine for my needs overall. Really hoping they update the VL3 series to have better guitar amp sounds and some more robust routing. Since I have young kids now(both under 2) I am setting up a little music station for myself in a different part of the house so I can be able to sing full volume at night and what not. So it's just a mic stand, iPad attached to mic stand, vl3, and trio with headphones and maybe my tc fx150. Essentially my reduced live rig but I don't use trio live just practice/creation tool. Thanks again.

JeffTronics

Your music station idea, I believe it's also called a Man Cave - ha ha. I have that going on too, but not the family dynamic to contend with.

I wrote TC-Helicon support alerting them to the Aux input limitation. It's concerning when support's reply is , "You're the first person to have reported this". I always love to be first, even though there are no special awards that come with it. I'm not alone with the limitation experience and I was part of a forum thread on TC-H'S site (the older forum before they changed over to the new one). We agreed things just sound different when plugged into Aux. It will have to suffice for now, but it's a difficult compromise when we want to chain all of our toys together. GR-55>GP-10>VL3 Aux. Not to mention fitting the Trio in somehow.

I have expressed wanting Stereo FX I/Os in the VL4 wish list because I think many of us bring our own effects to table and it let's them off the hook for implementing them later in the box itself.

I looked up the TC FX 150. That's cool, hope you're enjoying it.

For my home setup, I interface everything into the DAW and that pretty much gives me full control over everything I want. 

Have you been following the gearslutz thread for extracting the trio data to .wav files? I have some questions back to the developer.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-many-guitars-so-little-time/1124565-digitech-trio-plus-audio-extraction-tool.html

I'm currently bouncing back and forth between the trio and band in a box to explore some drums and keyboard backing track ideas. I like the simplicity of the trio once you understand how to teach it. But here again we are at the mercy of the cab simulation on the headphone jack. And, I need stereo drums.

BIAB on the other hand does eat up more time because you have to compose, than  spend hours previewing different real tracks. My overall concern is, I'm spending more time with at the computer than with the guitar. I'm thinking it  should be the other way around.

Both share common workflow concepts by building song parts and the ability to change things up during each part. And, indicating a sequence for how the parts are played.

JT

mordecai

I think you hit a lot of stuff in the head. I think at least an effects loops for guitar on the VL3 is needed. Feeding dirt boxes into the main input is fine but when things like whammy and a real wah come in it just isn't happening for vocals. As well as it would enable us to put amps we have already tweaked to our liking etc. The FX150 came with my vl3 :D when they were doing the buy the unit get the speaker. It does well l think for just basic monitoring. My Jbl503 and sub are preferred though(this is the volume issue). I don't want to get rid of my sub in my little studio room. So I am just moving and setting up a night fun area. I have my DAW(Logic) and all that as my preferred setup but trying this out for now when we have a new born in the house. "Don't wake the baby" is now my mantra... it's only for a time.

I agree that band in a box is very time consuming. When I first got it I was very inspired and got digging and loved it. Now it seems very time consuming. I have not seen that post for the Trio. I will definitely see what's up with that. The wavs could be used to pipe the chords into BIAB and save a lot of time. I find the Trio is great for song idea creation.

I work in IT and my struggle is I deal with programs and hardware all day and then coming home in that same mind frame I get lost going down the rabbit holes of BIAB and Logic w/plugins. This  can dominate my time over playing and creating. That's another reason I am thinking this stripped back setup may be a breath of fresh air in my creative world. Glad to have the choices though. Same reason I have an analog and tube amp setup as well, choices to spark inspiration.

mauricioluque

I just created my first cover with the Trio+ and I would share it with all of you here.
It is a version of "Every breath you take" (in G) and you can download it here: http://mauricioluque.com/digitech-trio-songs/

You will need the Trio Manager software to upload it to your device.

I hope you like it.

BrookfieldStrummer

There's a lot of interesting stuff here about the Digitech Trio plus.  I bought one recently and like it a lot, though as a newbie with it I'm not sure I'm in any position to comment as it may be that I just haven't worked out how to do something.  However, there are things I have noticed already that would make so much difference:  (Digitech Guys??)

   1. It would be great to have an ending ability and not just be left hanging at the end of a song. 

   2. I know that the physical design limits you to 5 parts and 12 songs simply by the number of buttons and switch positions.  I realize that you need to carefully analyze your song to get the parts right, and 5 parts may be ok for just drums and bass, but once you try adding loops you can need more.  Would it be possible to chain 2 consecutive songs in the sequencer to increase the number of parts?  At least this could greatly increase the capability relatively easily without a hardware redesign!

Finally, thanks to Mauricioluque for sharing a song.  I look forward to trying it.  I think that a song exchange is a great idea.
GP-10, GT-1, VE-8, VE-500, Trio plus, Godin, Gibson, Gretsch, Fender, Taylor, Takemine, Yamaha, Hagstrom, Lap & Pedal, Rivera, Marshall, Roland

mauricioluque

The endings and the breaks issue has an easy solution:

- for the endings, just add a third colour (red, for example) in the "ALT TIME" led/button (the one in the right top)

- for the breaks, add a third colour (yellow, for example) in the parts leds/buttons (1, 2, 3, 4, 5), so the Trio+ knows you a re recording a loop with breaks and it can insert silences (in the same way it does, in the simple bass button).

If somebody wants "Do you want to know a secret" by The Beatles ready for Trio+, just ask, please.

DreamTheory

Trio now under $50 on Sweetwater. About 2 years ago MSRP was $300, and it was best in show at NAMM. My how prices can drop on Black Friday.
electric: Epiphone Dot semihollow body, acoustic: mahogany jumbo, recording: Cubase Artist 11 or Tascam DP008

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