Author Topic: Are Little Boxes Slowly Eroding the VG Empire?  (Read 3044 times)

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Offline vanceg

Re: Are Little Boxes Slowly Eroding the VG Empire?
« Reply #75 on: December 05, 2017, 08:27:06 PM »
Well, I think we're surely thinking of the wrong market - We aren't looking to sell to ALL guitarists.  Shit, even Fender isn't selling to ALL guitarists.  We are looking to sell to some small percentage of guitarists.  That's plenty!  If 0.01% of the guitarists used Hex, we'd have enough folks to justify developing more hex tools. 
And, It strikes me that a hex pickup is absolutely as easy to install as a normal pickup.  A 13pin cable is still just one cable. 
If we just entirely ditched the idea of these damn 1950's technology monophonic pickups and ALL just started to convert over to using Hex exclusively, there really wouldn't be an issue.  That is - the problem seems to be MIXING the two (hex and monophonic)... If you don't give a flying hoot about hearing your monophonic pickups, and you had a small box (or onboard device) that did pickup "emulation" (not necessarily emulating existing pickups...but simply making the hex pickup sound 'however you want it to') then we'd have a system that would produce "normal" guitar tones... perhraps even convincing "classic" tones... and you are playing your favorite guitar. 

What I'm getting at is:  1)  We don't have to have everyone convert because just a small part of the market is still huge  2) Hex pickups are really physically QUITE easy to install and configure  3)They can fit in standard pickup cutouts... you don't HAVE to drill new holes in your classic gutiar  3.5) Don't put them on your favorite old classic guitar if you don't want to...just put them on new instruments.   

I just don't buy the idea that they are more difficult or cumbersome than monophonic pickups...UNLESS you are insisting on adding them on to guitars that already have monophonic pickups in them and you don't want to alter those instruments....then, quite obviously, ANY modification is not ok.


We may not be trying to solve the correct problem. I agree that hex PUs and the cables etc. are a royal pain. I simply would rather play my high-end Telecaster, Gretsch, etc. than my LGX-SA, even though that is a good guitar. AND, I might use those guitars if a pickup could slide discreetly and wireless under the strings by the bridge with a connection to a control box or similar. Sure.

But, here is the bottom line to my way of thinking. Most guitar players simply don't CARE enough about either synth or modeled sounds. EHX is cleaning up in the market by selling little stomp boxes to the guy who wants to throw in a quick synth stab or have a Rhodes fake on one song. Sure, there are enough esoteric players to justify some pretty weird boxes - The EarthQuaker Rainbow Machine for me is the poster child of the WTF movement in strange pedals. But even the guys who play EarthQuaker or other odd pedals may turn right around and run their Strat into a drive pedal to play the blues for a weekend gig.

Seriously, think of the guitar players you know in your area. How many of them would adopt synths and get into the stuff we do here EVEN IF the guitar magically connected to synths or modeling boxes with no modifications to the guitar at all? The guitar players I know drool over Martins, or Bad Cat amps, or the T-Rex real tape echo. They are into the crunch, the warmth, the soul of the guitar. The DEMAND is the problem my friends, not the SOLUTION.

Offline vanceg

Re: Are Little Boxes Slowly Eroding the VG Empire?
« Reply #76 on: December 05, 2017, 08:28:36 PM »
While I really don't like the 13pin cable... I don't consider it ANY more "unwieldy" than a standard guitar cable.  I mean... it falls to the floor when I unplug it, i have to step over it when i turn around with my guitar on... sometimes i trip over it... JUST like I do with a 1/4" cable. 

Point proven! All ugly or irreversible destructive mods.

To be fair to Fishman what they did absolutely get 100% right was going wireless - that's a big chunk of unwieldy GK cable pain gone.

Personally I think the future of midi guitar (not modelling etc) is 1/4 inch stock out and  software conversion.

 Roll on MG3 floor pedal guitar to midi converter....

Offline sec6

Re: Are Little Boxes Slowly Eroding the VG Empire?
« Reply #77 on: December 05, 2017, 09:49:23 PM »
While I really don't like the 13pin cable... I don't consider it ANY more "unwieldy" than a standard guitar cable.  I mean... it falls to the floor when I unplug it, i have to step over it when i turn around with my guitar on... sometimes i trip over it... JUST like I do with a 1/4" cable.

My frustration with 13-pin cables ended when I stopped using the ones made by Roland. Thanks Codesmart and Gittler! 
Les Paul DC Standard (GK Kit), Ibanez RG420GK, Boss GP-10, Ableton 9 Intro, Omnisphere 2, Arturia Synclavier, Arturia VDM

Offline Smash

Re: Are Little Boxes Slowly Eroding the VG Empire?
« Reply #78 on: December 06, 2017, 01:49:07 AM »
The problem here is you're already converts lol!  ;D

Vped can run mg2 but how well? I thought it was largely dismissed as a box for various software issues and shortcomings.

Mg2 on ios simply doesn't hack it in terms of either latency or accuracy in close knit chords- if you want slow attack pads only then great. On ios it doesn't come close to FTP from my experience.

And I agree a full GK install doesn't harm the looks of a guitar. Some beautys on this forum - no question. But the people here on this forum are in the minority in terms of wanting to hack their guitars - if the manufacturer takes the same tact that if customers really want it theyll do it it will always result in niche take up.

Joe Guitarist isn't interested in modelling? You're joking! Kemper? Katana? and every single MFX out there all have modelled effects. Modelling as a concept is absolutely accepted by majority (not all granted) what we're talking about here is ultimately accessibility. EHX success (based on title of this thread) tells you Joe Guitarist will go for it its painless.

I don't think the answer will come from groups like this as we're all too blinkered by the past telling us what isnt possible. Theres a lot of 'its not possible' attitude - it needs left of field, blue sky (hate that term!) thinking. The SY was a step in the right direction but didn't quite hit the mark.

Again it's all just imo - I just think it needs a rethink before a new GK flagship is viable.

The answer to the OP question is Yes, they are.........because they're painless and they work

« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 03:21:39 AM by Smash »

Offline Brak(E)man

Re: Are Little Boxes Slowly Eroding the VG Empire?
« Reply #79 on: December 06, 2017, 03:04:45 AM »

Joe Guitarist isn't interested in modelling? You're joking! Kemper? Katana? and every single MFX out there all have modelled effects. Modelling as a concept is absolutely accepted by majority (not all granted) what we're talking about here is ultimately accessibility. EHX success (based on title of this thread) tells you Joe Guitarist will go for it its painless.


Most of the Joe Guitarists are still arguing solid state vs tube , kemper are seen as a bad replica , not comparable to the " real thing " and barely accepted. Katana as a regular amp with the side Q ( if they are models ? ) about the different amps in Katana. ( and most of them won't check out the sneaky amps , too complicated) and most of them run their stomp boxes with Katana instead of the built in FX.

As far as multifx goes , they want them working as stomp boxes.
One button per fx , one knob to tweak per fx etc. and preferably analogue with a tube in there
at least for show.

Ehx success I think is based on the fact that they look like the stomp boxes that Joes got used to ,
less than how they sound , and that they did make Big Muff , Electric Mistress etc.

I do think you're right in general.
The wart the hex the cable the model fx aren't rocknroll
And for the major part of Joes that's what matters.

that's where it's at IMO and I don't see that changing.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 03:12:42 AM by Brak(E)man »
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Offline Smash

Re: Are Little Boxes Slowly Eroding the VG Empire?
« Reply #80 on: December 06, 2017, 03:20:42 AM »
The valve bit made me laugh - suddenly had the thought of a "new" analog digital delay, featuring the crystaline clarity of digital with warm fuzziness of valves! :D Sad thing is it'd probably be lapped up, lol!

Offline Dream_Theory

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Re: Are Little Boxes Slowly Eroding the VG Empire?
« Reply #81 on: December 06, 2017, 03:24:14 AM »
Not uglier? Thats a tech head guitarist talking, and thats the problem  ;)

I think the fact that pretty much all acoustic guitar pups are well hidden if not invisible now tells you no one wants an ugly bolt on.

And you're kind of missing my point - I'm sure Joe Guitarist would be happy to try a hex multi processor if that initial wart problem could be overcome.

Maybe it's not ugly enough. The hex could be sturdier and bigger. The connectors would be more durable, the installation less intimidating. Less delicate, more rugged might appeal to guys used to adjusting a bridge with a standard size  screwdriver. Jeep mentality.

Maybe it's ugly because, like a zit, it tries to hide but it can't. So make it big and chrome finished. Call it the "Whalloping Galumpke" and include a Bixby.

Or... ditch the gk3 knot in favor of a waist level control surface, so maybe the A/D could be moved there. Then the wire off the guitar would be very thin and small- just zip tie it to your mono cable. These thin cables would be cheap and click into the hex like telephone cords.

Or... how about locating the A/D circuits in a special modified strap? It could have sensor controls that you activate by touching. Or make some kind of cyborg gauntlet, like a Michael Jackson glove with exposed fingers, or a velcro band you can put on your upper arm like a jogger's biofeedback thingy.

I like the GK-3 as is because it's a cheapest most efficient compromise, but maybe having more options could help reach more people?
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 08:59:14 PM by Dream_Theory »
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Offline admsustainiac

Re: Are Little Boxes Slowly Eroding the VG Empire?
« Reply #82 on: December 06, 2017, 03:52:47 AM »
The valve bit made me laugh - suddenly had the thought of a "new" analog digital delay, featuring the crystaline clarity of digital with warm fuzziness of valves! :D Sad thing is it'd probably be lapped up, lol!

http://effectextra.blogspot.com/2010/10/guyatone-flip-ad-x-analog-delay-with.html



Offline chrish

Re: Are Little Boxes Slowly Eroding the VG Empire?
« Reply #84 on: December 06, 2017, 10:20:23 AM »
http://effectextra.blogspot.com/2010/10/guyatone-flip-ad-x-analog-delay-with.html

(Image removed from quote.)
I remember seeing another tube delay on the Forum. It looked like a Whitman's sampler candy box.

One thing I think is very interesting is why we care whether or not Joe Blow guitarist gets into Hi-Tech hex processing.

 Is it  the lack of aesthetic appeal, or learning curve, lack of understanding of what the product can do, or even added expanse keeping high tech gear a niche market?

 Or is it really about what their favorite rock stars are using?

The only reason  I can think of why we care is because, as high-tech guitar enthusiasts and sound explorers, we want more of those products.

 





« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 10:22:58 AM by chrish »

Offline Rhcole

Re: Are Little Boxes Slowly Eroding the VG Empire?
« Reply #85 on: December 06, 2017, 10:25:59 AM »
Bingo. If Roland had sold enough VG-99s, we would all own VG-120s by now.

Offline vanceg

Re: Are Little Boxes Slowly Eroding the VG Empire?
« Reply #86 on: December 10, 2017, 07:18:01 PM »
I guess that part of my point is:  The MASS of "Joe Guitarists" aren't going to care about a lot of what hex pickups can do.  But that mass is so huge that just a small portion of that mass could still be an interesting market, even for the big players.   There are some capabilities which are most easily achieved by using hex pickups (alternate tunings, pitch detection on each string, many unique and obviously useful effects like hex distortion) that would not be a challenge to see as being useful to the "average" guitarists (as opposed to us "already converted weirdos").  Just those two facts would make me think that there is ENOUGH of a market for Hex pickups to continue some effort developing for it. 

Now, the big players can take some big risks - Like introducing this technology to the wider market.  And they can survive when the whole market doesn't pick it up.   And the super small players can make targeted products and stay alive because they only need a small customer base to stay afloat (at least for a while).  It's the middle sized companies that seem most challenged at being able to introduce and sustain such products.

Frankly I don't know if hex processing will take off ever... but it seems like it could.. and it SURELY seems like it can exist as a long term sub-market....