Are Little Boxes Slowly Eroding the VG Empire?

Started by Rhcole, December 04, 2014, 10:07:44 AM

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vanceg

All of these are REALLY relevant points, and spot on.  While I am OFTEN tempted by the idea of buying some of these amazing new creative pedals, I quickly realize that all of the preset management that I do, parameter recall, changing of patching and effect order, would be prohibitively difficult (but possible!) using a "bunch of little boxes"... The big advantage I see of many of these individual boxes is:  They each have their own personality, and that can be a real strength when building up a collection of sounds you enjoy playing.

Laptops, too, have difficulty with providing real unified parameter and routing flexibility, though a few apps absolutely allow for that. 





Quote from: SuperNiCd on December 04, 2014, 10:51:21 AM
Well, speaking for myself, little boxes. as good as they might sound, have a big problem.  It takes an awful lot of them to equal all the virtual little boxes found in something like a VG-99, GR-55, GP-10, etc.  They are missing a global preset system that ties them all together to let you change their settings in a single stomp.  They don't have a nifty assigns system to let you modulate the controls of 3 of the boxes at once with one expression pedal.  For me, lots of little boxes = one big headache at performance time.

Tablet apps, at least right now, have similar problems, since they are forced to operate in their own sandboxes, but that's changing.  PC/Mac apps are better but are still a headache to set up and maintain in such a way that they work harmoniously together.

I say the state of the empire is intact.  But the King should pay attention and heed the warnings. :)

vanceg

Heheheh:  The alternative to the 13pin connector I am LOVING right now is the Lemo connector. But it will absolutely never become an industry standard as the cable is $250 and the connectors (for use in manufacturing gear) are $80 each...


Quote from: pasha811 on December 05, 2014, 08:41:46 AM

VG world is a great world but many others are doing well without a 13 Pin pickup... industry standard, ease of use.. that's what matters the most. People love a 12 Euro Jack cable.. if broken, it's replaced. You cannot do the same with a cable that cost 4 times as such!


vanceg

I agree. But I'm (Very seriously) thinking this time period will be at LEAST 15 years.  More likely quite a bit longer.  Processing has to increase many orders of magnitude to get to where we can do what we can with Hex processing now.  That said, with the products out on the market now, I think we are using about 0.1% of the potential of individual string processing.


Quote from: Bill Ruppert on December 05, 2014, 09:46:52 AM
13 pin hex pickup will vanish in time.
As processors speed up it will be done with a mono source.
Mark my words its just a matter of time!

vanceg

A variation on Occams Razor could be useful here:  What is the simplest way to get the functionality that 13 pin offers?  Is it to build a massively powerful processor, take a signal signal and rip it apart, analyze it, break it into consituant pieces and process each one, then stitch them back together... .or is it attaching a 1/4" by 4" pickup and an extra jack to a guitar?   Hex is, and will remain, MUCH easier.   

We don't just need signal processing to get much faster in order for us to get the functionality out of a single pickup that we do out of Hex processing, we need that advanced signal processing to be signficantly easier and cheaper than the hex alternative.... and I Really REALLY don't see that happening for a long time.

However, I could imagine a world where enough people say "eh... I don't need the features I see available in the hex processing world... I can get some  of the way there using things like  the SY300".  To that I'd say:  You haven't seen what hex can really do yet.  I mean, there is NO full end-to-end hexaphonic processing system yet!   There is nothing like the VG-99 that provides a hex patch all the way through.   WE ARENT EVEN to the place where processing is cheap and fast enough to do that yet. We haven't even heard what can be done yet! 

I'd say - It's not ending... It hasn't yet really started.



Quote from: pasha811 on December 05, 2014, 10:46:30 AM
Although I agree with Bill Ruppert about the technological progress I think that physics cannot be won.
Many have tried the software route with Max/MSP (Fourier Transform, zero crossing or other tricks).No one really succeeded.
We need CPUs so fast that compute and disassemble the single audio stream into its components in parallel.
I think that we could do some progresses but 13pin will always have the edge. .. But I am no programmer and I can be wrong.
However I took note of what Bill said. Just to prove me wrong in the future.. ;-)

Best
Pasha

vanceg

Quote from: mbenigni on April 15, 2015, 06:33:44 AM
It's useful to also consider this question from the point of view of the manufacturer.  Yes, we can all agree that 6 signals will forever outperform 1 signal in many ways.  But as that gap in performance closes, the market for the hex solution becomes more and more niche, and the case for a profitable business model evaporates.  So even acknowledging that the hex pickup is "better" (it's both better and worse IMO) you might see compatible products disappear in time.  It's much easier to bank on a customer base comprised of folks with guitars with 1/4" jacks, and it's even easier to bank on CPU's getting faster, i.e. better at parsing polyphonic information from a mono signal.

I'd mark this as a great moment for manufacturers, who now find themselves sitting on enough processing power, to take their existing products and IP that they have spent so much time and effort in developing, multiply them x 6, put 6 copies of them into one box, and start creating an entire ecosystem of hex-based processing effects.  MUCH cheaper than developing all new technology, much better cost to return potential. 

vanceg

I absolutely realize that.  I also realize that there are enough guitar players out there to support a large group of huge companies and an ENORMOUS group of small companies....  it's an enormous market.   And I'd assert that the exact same thing could be said 'back in the day' about "most gutiarists don't want to weigh themselves down with technology" and "wouldn't know what to do with a whole new range of sounds".  But if someone told me in 1976 that guitar rigs would get as crazy as they have been since the 80's, I would have said "there's no need, gutiarists don'w want that".   We HAVE adopted a huge amount of technology since then. 

All of this is to say:  I think we just haven't seen what hex can REALLY do yet (well, perhaps YOU understand it!... but most guitarists haven't been able to envision it yet)... and the existing products just grab the low hanging fruit (alternate tunings, for example).

But I agree - It is going to take normalizing some of this stuff for guitarists to become comfortable with it.  That said, hex pickup and 13 pin cable is NOT hard.  At all.  If there were a set of pedals that we could plug together and do hex processing, there would be a (small at first) market for it... but it would become normalized.



Quote from: Bill Ruppert on April 10, 2016, 02:48:38 PM
Hi Vance!
You have to realize 80% of the guitar players in the world are not like us who get chubbies when we have a piece of gear and a manual to read! ( new gear thrills me to my toes!)
Most folks really do not want to mount a special pickup on their guitar or learn how to set it up AND learn how to adapt their playing AND learn how to operate or program a unit.
Its just the way it is.
I wish it wasnt!

vanceg

And you could create a cool product if you could get this information split out in real-time.  As the makers of Melodyne will tell you, their technique is not suited to real-time, even with enormous amounts of processing.  Near-real-time, yes.  But the technique they use just isn't suited for instant splitting of the signal into "virtual sources".  The guitar also presents some very interesting challenges such as:  The same pitch can be played on different strings... even simultaneously.  This would seriously make the splitting of signal much, much harder.  How would you know what string it originated from?  Timbre?  perhaps.  That's a heck of a trick, though.

I LOVE melodyne and use it a lot.  And I totally agree that someday perhaps systems will be there capable of splitting signal in to 6 parts...just like is possible now with a $150 pickup... but when will it be cheaper and easier and the "best method" for doing that?  It's going to be very hard  to beat a simple hex in terms of price and efficiency.


Quote from: Kevin M on December 01, 2017, 10:38:40 PM
Some Melodyne editing features:





alexmcginness

Quote from: SuperNiCd on December 05, 2014, 07:45:22 AM
Kind of interesting to hear from those who have championed 13 pin gear at some point in their careers, and what's in their guitar chain now.  I wonder how many have more or less abandoned it, at least for "every day" use, and have moved on to something else.

My main guitar chain is still the VG-99 when Im gigging. Theres nothing that touches it for live work IMO. Its super easy to tweak being at waist height. Presets which is something the EHX boxes dont have. Midi. Separate programmable outputs. Stereo. Tons of EQ available per patch. The list goes on.
Id use the little boxes in the studio but a couple of the little boxes ( an early to mid 70s Big Muff and a Guyatone TO-2 ) Ive modeled into the 99 so I dont need them on the road. I cant ever see myself giving up the 13 pin/vg-99. Ive got a few old guitars and Ive used Har-Bal to model them into the 99 and then tweaked the settings to take away some of the things I dont like about real guitars. String balance on the Strat emulation I did as the real Strat has fixed pole pieces as well as the ability to eq separate strings if needed. Theres just a bunch of stuff.
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.

whippinpost91850

I use 13 pin every gig. Mostly with my GR55, but occasionally with my ATG-1

Brak(E)man

13 pin here too , every gig and almost every studio session from -96 and to this day.
The exception being SY300 and iPad with Jamup , Flux:FX and Loopy HD
(If they came with 13 pin I'd be over the super moon ! )
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

mooncaine

I'm using it now more than ever because I'm doing signup shows where the leader makes a set list and friends sign up for slots on the tunes. It's like sitting in with a cover band, except just about everyone is sitting in. So having the VG-99 for those shows makes it fun and easy. It's like having the history of electric guitar at your fingertips, almost.

alexmcginness

#61
Quote from: mooncaine on December 03, 2017, 07:38:44 PM
( The VG-99 ) It's like having the history of electric guitar at your fingertips, almost.

Bingo! If youre doin covers...theres nothing like that box. This Paul Hanson demo sold me on the unit.



VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.

Smash

#62
Hex is still king, but it's lead is now much reduced.

One of the major problems in my opinion is the pick up.

Yes, I know it's relatively easy to fit if you've got the patience and strong desire to unleash what it's capable of but the Gk pickup and wart hasn't really changed an awful lot in appearance since it was introduced. And whichever way you slice it - it's fugly man!

Spent 1k, 2k more? on a super dooper triple AAA last remaining rain forest uber rare tone wood flame grilled top that looks incredible and then have to stick what looks like a giant USB charger to the front of it?! really? you think?? I'd wager many guitarists are put off just by the inherent ugliness of the thing before they'd even consider the benefits. People will buy one guitar over another purely on aesthetics so we know guitarist are largely tarts (UKism btw). And the thing is, it really doesn't have to be like that at all.

Hex simply isn't sexy - apart from the Submarine which looks much more like a cool retro "regular" guitar part and does actually look good in a sound hole.

Even Fishman fell into the same trap by taking too much creedance by the Roland design and not breaking the mold - literally. It's another utilitarian design that ruins the aesthetics of any guitar it's put on.

God at least make the knobs inter changeable with regular guitar controls so it can look vaguely like it's supposed be part of the guitar it's strapped to!

So, IMHO, for HEX to even get a foot in the door with Joe Guitarist - even at this 11th hour - the pup needs to:

a) get seriously sexy - and I mean look like a premium, designer product and

b) be and instant mount/dismount device - it's an instant gratification world - if a guitarist has to start reading instructions, fiddle around with a tiny screw driver with a blade the size of a pinhead that looks like a toy that's come out of a Christmas cracker and then micro meter measure string gaps (then have to compromise because the radius is too pronounced on the pup compare to modern radius necks) well, you're going to lose a shed load of potential customers before you've started. Not forgetting having done that you still need to manually (Really?? 2 sequel to Really?? 1) adjust the string levels (Still have absolutely no clue why this isn't automated -  just in terms of consistency of user experience let alone convenience. Actually I do know - it's historical - that's how it's always been done. Pah)

It's all turn offs.

EHX come along. One box. Makes you sound like a Rhodes or Mellotron or whatever. No faff. just stomp on the footswitch. Win.

chrish

#63


Your post has me wondering how acoustic guitar players felt when they first saw a pick up placed on a guitar with all the associated knobs.

And then what about those big tremeloes?

The GK warts arent any uglier than any other Hardware that's slapped on a beautiful piece of wood. The added hardware  is just  additional sound shaping tools .

Although I do prefer the gk3 look and mounting options over the old GK2's.

But if someone wants to buy 20 pedals in order to get an assortment of synth sounds with the convenience of quarter inch Plug and Play then go for it.

The main problem for digital pedals that I see is that they don't have digital in and outs which forces the user to undergo multiple da to ad conversions, each adding  digital artifact noise along the signal path.

Smash

#64
Not uglier? Thats a tech head guitarist talking, and thats the problem  ;)

I think the fact that pretty much all acoustic guitar pups are well hidden if not invisible now tells you no one wants an ugly bolt on.

And you're kind of missing my point - I'm sure Joe Guitarist would be happy to try a hex multi processor if that initial wart problem could be overcome.

Brak(E)man

Quote from: Smash on December 05, 2017, 10:35:59 AM
Not uglier? Thats a tech head guitarist talking, and thats the problem  ;)

I think the fact that pretty much all acoustic guitar pups are well hidden if not invisible now tells you no one wants an ugly bolt on.

And you're kind of missing my point - I'm sure Joe Guitarist would be happy to try a hex multi processor if that initial wart problem could be overcome.

Most of my hex guitars have built in GK
for practical reasons though
and I doubt that Joe Guitarist would.
There are the line 6 guitars and the Roland Strats etc.
Not that many Joes have tried them is my guess.
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Smash

#66
Line 6 isn't hex out though.

I still think if there genuinely is life left in hex then things like a wart/pup redesign and obvious stuff like auto level calibration (how many times has level setting been discussed) is core to increase take up. It has to be as painless as possible to encourage the switch. But I freely admit I have no market place experience - its just gut feeling about blockers to take up and the pup/wart is I think anyway, unarguably the first hurdle.

admin

#67
Quote from: Smash on December 05, 2017, 03:45:05 PM
Line 6 isn't hex out though.

I still think if there genuinely is life left in hex then things like a wart/pup redesign and obvious stuff like auto level calibration (how many times has level setting been discussed) is core to increase take up. It has to be as painless as possible to encourage the switch. But I freely admit I have no market place experience - its just gut feeling about blockers to take up and the pup/wart is I think anyway, unarguably the first hurdle.

Many have tried to market hex PU's before - but are just relegated to history now
http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/Issue/2010/Feb/Putting_the_Hex_On_the_Postmodern_Pickups.aspx


http://jpsongs.com/troubadortech/mgtr.htm
https://www.web.archive.org/web/20010414010138/http://home.swipnet.se/bonotron/p_ups_uk.htm









https://www.web.archive.org/web/20000324230922/http://www.johnbirchguitars.demon.co.uk/midi.htm



http://www.muzines.co.uk/articles/out-of-the-shadows/1923





https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-1986-Schaller-Shadow-GTM-6-Mulitplexer-with-MIDI-Guitar-Wiring-Harness-/141334247741


Smash

#68
Point proven! All ugly or irreversible destructive mods.

To be fair to Fishman what they did absolutely get 100% right was going wireless - that's a big chunk of unwieldy GK cable pain gone.

Personally I think the future of midi guitar (not modelling etc) is 1/4 inch stock out and  software conversion.

Roll on MG3 floor pedal guitar to midi converter....

Rhcole

We may not be trying to solve the correct problem. I agree that hex PUs and the cables etc. are a royal pain. I simply would rather play my high-end Telecaster, Gretsch, etc. than my LGX-SA, even though that is a good guitar. AND, I might use those guitars if a pickup could slide discreetly and wireless under the strings by the bridge with a connection to a control box or similar. Sure.

But, here is the bottom line to my way of thinking. Most guitar players simply don't CARE enough about either synth or modeled sounds. EHX is cleaning up in the market by selling little stomp boxes to the guy who wants to throw in a quick synth stab or have a Rhodes fake on one song. Sure, there are enough esoteric players to justify some pretty weird boxes - The EarthQuaker Rainbow Machine for me is the poster child of the WTF movement in strange pedals. But even the guys who play EarthQuaker or other odd pedals may turn right around and run their Strat into a drive pedal to play the blues for a weekend gig.

Seriously, think of the guitar players you know in your area. How many of them would adopt synths and get into the stuff we do here EVEN IF the guitar magically connected to synths or modeling boxes with no modifications to the guitar at all? The guitar players I know drool over Martins, or Bad Cat amps, or the T-Rex real tape echo. They are into the crunch, the warmth, the soul of the guitar. The DEMAND is the problem my friends, not the SOLUTION.

admin

#70
QuoteRoll on MG3 floor pedal guitar to midi converter....

already exists


ModeMachines Vped Pro


https://www.modemachines.com/vped-vped-pro

Go to 2:14 minutes




admin

#71
QuoteRoll on MG3 floor pedal guitar to midi converter...


Or Mobile for Acoustic Guitar to JamOrigin Midi Guitar (iphone)

HONZ Tech ToneWood Amp for Acoustic Guitar


https://www.tonewoodamp.com/
https://support.tonewoodamp.com/support/solutions/articles/17000033516-which-apps-can-i-use-with-the-tonewoodamp-


https://www.tonewoodamp.com/video-channels/


vanceg

Quote from: Brak(E)man on December 05, 2017, 12:19:56 PM
Most of my hex guitars have built in GK
for practical reasons though
and I doubt that Joe Guitarist would.
There are the line 6 guitars and the Roland Strats etc.
Not that many Joes have tried them is my guess.

Yeah - My hex pickup installs aren't one bit uglier than normal pickups. Quite attractive, I'd say.

vanceg

What "MOD" are you talking about - The hex pickup is the KEY pickup.  It should be the one and only pickup.  ;)


Quote from: Smash on December 05, 2017, 04:11:33 PM
Point proven! All ugly or irreversible destructive mods.

To be fair to Fishman what they did absolutely get 100% right was going wireless - that's a big chunk of unwieldy GK cable pain gone.

Personally I think the future of midi guitar (not modelling etc) is 1/4 inch stock out and  software conversion.

Roll on MG3 floor pedal guitar to midi converter....

vanceg

Well, I think we're surely thinking of the wrong market - We aren't looking to sell to ALL guitarists.  Shit, even Fender isn't selling to ALL guitarists.  We are looking to sell to some small percentage of guitarists.  That's plenty!  If 0.01% of the guitarists used Hex, we'd have enough folks to justify developing more hex tools. 
And, It strikes me that a hex pickup is absolutely as easy to install as a normal pickup.  A 13pin cable is still just one cable. 
If we just entirely ditched the idea of these damn 1950's technology monophonic pickups and ALL just started to convert over to using Hex exclusively, there really wouldn't be an issue.  That is - the problem seems to be MIXING the two (hex and monophonic)... If you don't give a flying hoot about hearing your monophonic pickups, and you had a small box (or onboard device) that did pickup "emulation" (not necessarily emulating existing pickups...but simply making the hex pickup sound 'however you want it to') then we'd have a system that would produce "normal" guitar tones... perhraps even convincing "classic" tones... and you are playing your favorite guitar. 

What I'm getting at is:  1)  We don't have to have everyone convert because just a small part of the market is still huge  2) Hex pickups are really physically QUITE easy to install and configure  3)They can fit in standard pickup cutouts... you don't HAVE to drill new holes in your classic gutiar  3.5) Don't put them on your favorite old classic guitar if you don't want to...just put them on new instruments.   

I just don't buy the idea that they are more difficult or cumbersome than monophonic pickups...UNLESS you are insisting on adding them on to guitars that already have monophonic pickups in them and you don't want to alter those instruments....then, quite obviously, ANY modification is not ok.


Quote from: Rhcole on December 05, 2017, 04:19:59 PM
We may not be trying to solve the correct problem. I agree that hex PUs and the cables etc. are a royal pain. I simply would rather play my high-end Telecaster, Gretsch, etc. than my LGX-SA, even though that is a good guitar. AND, I might use those guitars if a pickup could slide discreetly and wireless under the strings by the bridge with a connection to a control box or similar. Sure.

But, here is the bottom line to my way of thinking. Most guitar players simply don't CARE enough about either synth or modeled sounds. EHX is cleaning up in the market by selling little stomp boxes to the guy who wants to throw in a quick synth stab or have a Rhodes fake on one song. Sure, there are enough esoteric players to justify some pretty weird boxes - The EarthQuaker Rainbow Machine for me is the poster child of the WTF movement in strange pedals. But even the guys who play EarthQuaker or other odd pedals may turn right around and run their Strat into a drive pedal to play the blues for a weekend gig.

Seriously, think of the guitar players you know in your area. How many of them would adopt synths and get into the stuff we do here EVEN IF the guitar magically connected to synths or modeling boxes with no modifications to the guitar at all? The guitar players I know drool over Martins, or Bad Cat amps, or the T-Rex real tape echo. They are into the crunch, the warmth, the soul of the guitar. The DEMAND is the problem my friends, not the SOLUTION.