Are Little Boxes Slowly Eroding the VG Empire?

Started by Rhcole, December 04, 2014, 10:07:44 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Bill Ruppert

#25
?
What are you talking about?
I am not ready to write off the hex pick up.
I use it all the time and love it.
What I said was in the FUTURE when processing speeds up and gets better, boxes will be there that produce very usable/musical polyphonic pitch extraction from a mono source.
I dont know when that will be, BUT I HAVE seen things that show this will come to pass.

The world is not flat.


Quote from: Smash on April 14, 2015, 09:58:29 AM
This ^

Jumping on the coat tails of Melodyne and pulling information from a single polyphonic source is an amazing feet and opens the door to translating those grouped pitches into grouped pitches of another timbre - organ, sax, synth pad etc.

But it doesn't allow effective splitting. There is no way ever that the box can know which string played which note, it can only ever interpret the pitches and translate to a different sound. It's only half the picture. Massive market of course for players who want something to just work but not want or need the depth the hex option brings - there will always be players who want total control but I guess they (we) are in the minority.

Really quite surprised at you Bill being ready to write off hex pickups completely on this basis (well perhaps not considering your employer! :p) - the hex pup is still far more flexible and as someone who's known for being one of the most outside the box VG programmers (with the exception of Mr Keller) I'm surprised you can't see the potential of the union of this accurate pitch extraction technology used in conjunction with hex. Personally I think Hex is still here to stay - we just need an up to date flagship to remind everyone why it's so good!  ;)

Elantric

QuoteWhat I said was in the FUTURE when processing speeds up and gets better, boxes will be there that produce very usable/musical polyphonic pitch extraction from a mono source.

In 24 hours we will know if the future arrives sooner than expected 
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=14460.0

CodeSmart

It's cold today, I think Il'l light up a unhealthy fire with all my 13-pin guitars, Roland V-gear, GKMX dev. stuff and the hundreds of GK-cables I just got delivered. The blue box revolution is here! Times are a changing. Hallelujah!!!
But I got more gear than I need...and I like it!

Bill Ruppert

CodeSmart
Your GKPX-14 made a little cameo in the up coming EHX video:-)
B



Quote from: CodeSmart on April 14, 2015, 12:19:02 PM
It's cold today, I think Il'l light up a unhealthy fire with all my 13-pin guitars, Roland V-gear, GKMX dev. stuff and the hundreds of GK-cables I just got delivered. The blue box revolution is here! Times are a changing. Hallelujah!!!

CodeSmart

Quote from: Bill Ruppert on April 14, 2015, 01:22:51 PM
Your GKPX-14 made a little cameo in the up coming EHX video:-)
Nice Bill, thanks  ;D
But I got more gear than I need...and I like it!

Smash

Quote from: Bill Ruppert on April 14, 2015, 10:32:51 AM
?
What are you talking about?
I am not ready to write off the hex pick up.
I use it all the time and love it.
What I said was in the FUTURE when processing speeds up and gets better, boxes will be there that produce very usable/musical polyphonic pitch extraction from a mono source.
I dont know when that will be, BUT I HAVE seen things that show this will come to pass.

The world is not flat.

not quite what you said...

Quote from: Bill Ruppert on December 05, 2014, 09:46:52 AM
13 pin hex pickup will vanish in time.
As processors speed up it will be done with a mono source.
Mark my words its just a matter of time!

"hex pup will vanish in time"  - I just made a case against that point of view.

Clearly you weren't talking about the immediate future and, as I was responding in context, neither was I.

I am just surprised that you think that pitch translation will wipe out hex completely when (IMHO) it's only part of the toy box - a large part admittedly but still only a part nevertheless.

It's just a point of view man, healthy debate - "the world is not flat" as you say :)

mbenigni

It's useful to also consider this question from the point of view of the manufacturer.  Yes, we can all agree that 6 signals will forever outperform 1 signal in many ways.  But as that gap in performance closes, the market for the hex solution becomes more and more niche, and the case for a profitable business model evaporates.  So even acknowledging that the hex pickup is "better" (it's both better and worse IMO) you might see compatible products disappear in time.  It's much easier to bank on a customer base comprised of folks with guitars with 1/4" jacks, and it's even easier to bank on CPU's getting faster, i.e. better at parsing polyphonic information from a mono signal.

Toby Krebs

The little box that has killed it for me is this damn Talk Box.I had to make a decision recently about what to bring to my gigs to make my gigging more profitable/easier to set up tear down and lastly to give the audience what it wants to hear.It wants to hear me make a bunch of stupid noises with a Talk Box most of all so all I bring now is a Talk Box/wah pedal and a Tech 21 Fly Rig played through a EHX 44 Magnum (thanks Bill Ruppert) and a 1x12 cab.Thats it.I have been rolling this way since after the NAMM show in January. All of my Roland GR55/GR20/GT10 and a bunch of other giant footprint fun creatively exciting processors are in storage. I no longer get called to play the synth.I get a ton of calls asking me to play the Talk Box. I am glad so many of you are still pushing the envelope of what is possible to do with the electric guitar. Please keep it going!


Elantric

#33
Id focus on playing guitar - and find a volunteer who wants to "work the tube near the mic



Might be more of a crowd pleaser than my schtick - hold a limbo party mid set.


FWIW - build cheap talk box
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6218.0

thebrushwithin

I heard some "talk box" effects from Alex Hutchings, on the SY 300 demo. When I try it with voice, I might have to mix in the regular mic a bit, and see if that works.

chrish

#35
Quote from: Smash on April 14, 2015, 09:58:29 AM


Personally I think Hex is still here to stay - we just need an up to date flagship to remind everyone why it's so good!  ;)
Being able to change only my low e and a strings to a bass or baritone guitar sound with the vg8 has served me well. When i purchased the vg8 it was just updated to the ex revision and i thought that more updates would be on the way and this would be last floor box of that type that i would have to purchase. Ha.

vanceg

Even if it's someday possible to do processing on each individual string's signal using a standard Monophonic pickup...it will ALWAYS be harder to do that than it would be to process output from a hexaphonic pickup.  Why in the world wouldn't one want a hex pickup?  Sure, they need to be improved... but there is SO much more you can do with individual string pickups.  And, why stick so steadfastly to  your "classic pickups" if you want to stretch the bounds of what guitar can do?  If you want a classic old tone, use standard mono pickups.  If not why not put a hex pickup on your instrument?  They aren't difficult to install.  if you want to process hex and then mix that to Mono and run it though a bunch of standard mono guitar pedals, you can do that.  I just don't see the logic of pushing for using Mono pickups on guitar systems that are trying to go beyond with standard old guitar rigs can sound like.  Why?

Bill Ruppert

Quote from: vanceg on April 10, 2016, 02:23:54 PM
Even if it's someday possible to do processing on each individual string's signal using a standard Monophonic pickup...it will ALWAYS be harder to do that than it would be to process output from a hexaphonic pickup.  Why in the world wouldn't one want a hex pickup?  Sure, they need to be improved... but there is SO much more you can do with individual string pickups.  And, why stick so steadfastly to  your "classic pickups" if you want to stretch the bounds of what guitar can do?  If you want a classic old tone, use standard mono pickups.  If not why not put a hex pickup on your instrument?  They aren't difficult to install.  if you want to process hex and then mix that to Mono and run it though a bunch of standard mono guitar pedals, you can do that.  I just don't see the logic of pushing for using Mono pickups on guitar systems that are trying to go beyond with standard old guitar rigs can sound like.  Why?

Hi Vance!
You have to realize 80% of the guitar players in the world are not like us who get chubbies when we have a piece of gear and a manual to read! ( new gear thrills me to my toes!)
Most folks really do not want to mount a special pickup on their guitar or learn how to set it up AND learn how to adapt their playing AND learn how to operate or program a unit.
Its just the way it is.
I wish it wasnt!

chrish

#38
The dream is to have the hex pup and not have to adapt to special guitar technique and get the best control of the dsp as possible. If the boss sy 300 had a 13 pin hex input, it would be a more versatile unit. If it could also accurately model acoustic instruments while keeping the modulation control that guitar technique affords us (such a vibrato), with zero latency and zero note glitching, then that would be my next purchase.


chrish

#40
I was watching some old Foxtrot- Lamb Lies Down On Broadway era Genesis video on YouTube last night.

One of Steve Hackett's sound effect techniques was to Rake the low strings starting near the nut with either a pic or his fingers (couldn't tell).

What an incredible lineup a creative Talent  and skill That was.

Of course Steve carried on with a solo career after leaving Genesis and continued  with the progressive rock flavor of the music. I consider his first solo effort,"Voyage of the Acolyte",one of my favorite albums.

Kevin M

Many years ago polyphonic pitch editing wasn't possible - it is now (Celemony's Melodyne is one example). While this isn't realtime editing yet, that's just a matter of time. When that's worked out, hex pickups will soon afterwards become irrelevant.

Elantric

#42
Quote from: Kevin M on December 01, 2017, 10:31:36 AM
Many years ago polyphonic pitch editing wasn't possible - it is now (Celemony's Melodyne is one example). While this isn't realtime editing yet, that's just a matter of time. When that's worked out, hex pickups will soon afterwards become irrelevant.




But since I might be dead before that technology arrives, and I must express myself with today's tools,  I'll continue to use my hex PU guitars

and sing . . . . .   


DreamTheory

...and for homebody hobbyist players like me who don't gig or even have a garage band, GR55 is 1) super cheap compared to all the other stuff I would have bought (pedals, 12 string, amps, sitar, etc), or could not possibly buy (tuba, Pipe organ,etc.), 2) saves everything including amp params in one patch, 3) has a small footprint compared to a huge tangle of stuff. A Digitech RP 360 is nifty, but cant do the hex things. and my DAW has lots of goodies, but GR55 let's me play anything off the fretboard. I am, after all, a guitarist. PS rchole your posts are always fun to read.
electric: Epiphone Dot semihollow body, acoustic: mahogany jumbo, recording: Cubase Artist 11 or Tascam DP008

GuitarBuilder

Quote from: Kevin M on December 01, 2017, 10:31:36 AM
Many years ago polyphonic pitch editing wasn't possible - it is now (Celemony's Melodyne is one example). While this isn't realtime editing yet, that's just a matter of time. When that's worked out, hex pickups will soon afterwards become irrelevant.

Don't hold your breath.
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

chrish

#45
Quote from: Kevin M on December 01, 2017, 10:31:36 AM
Many years ago polyphonic pitch editing wasn't possible - it is now (Celemony's Melodyne is one example). While this isn't realtime editing yet, that's just a matter of time. When that's worked out, hex pickups will soon afterwards become irrelevant.
I remember seeing a reference to that software in a different thread and was wondering if the individual note events can be edited and or removed?( kind of like the way MIDI note events can be edited or removed only with audio samples)

Kevin M

#46
Some Melodyne editing features:





Brak(E)man

Quote from: Kevin M on December 01, 2017, 10:31:36 AM
Many years ago polyphonic pitch editing wasn't possible - it is now (Celemony's Melodyne is one example). While this isn't realtime editing yet, that's just a matter of time. When that's worked out, hex pickups will soon afterwards become irrelevant.

That might happened if there's a monetary gain in it for the developers
( I'm sure the technology is available today )

as for the " little box " approach , it seems like that's what most guitarists want.
I'm exactly the opposite , I want all in one box and everything in stereo ( at least )
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Smash

Totally with Gunar on this one.

As you say at least stereo curious to know if you've ever tried a quadrophonic or more set up? Surely that would sound immense!

Brak(E)man

#49
Quote from: Smash on December 02, 2017, 05:43:21 AM
Totally with Gunar on this one.

As you say at least stereo curious to know if you've ever tried a quadrophonic or more set up? Surely that would sound immense!

Before I went VG I used 3 combo amps 3 extra cabinets or sometimes 6 combos 6 extra cabinets
And I've tried quad with VG 99 , the problem being standard stereo PA setup.
So yes on stage but only one time with a quad PA setup

I also mixed in DTS way back.
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch