JamStix - drum program for backing tracks

Started by pedwards2932, November 07, 2014, 07:10:33 AM

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pedwards2932

Not sure if this is the best place to post this but I got this software a few years back and am going to start using it for backing tracks.  I pulled a midi file of Brown Eyed Girl and put it in Sonar and used my Sonic Cell to create the sounds.  The first one is purely done with the Sonic Cell on the second one I took the midi drum track and pointed it at JamStix and the "drummer" that I used is "Charlie" modeled after Charlie Watts. I did NO programming just had Jamtrax do what it wanted to the drums.  I have posted both versions....pretty cool.  You can do a lot more if you really want to get into the program. 8)


pedwards2932

Weird I did a search for JamStix and nothing came up so that is why I posted it.......I can remove it if you want.

Elantric

No lets keep this as its own thread dedicated to JamStix!

supernicd

#4
+1

Jamstix has been my drum software of choice for many years.  If you've never checked it out, highly recommended in my book.  There's nothing else like it that I'm aware of, in that it has a brain that intelligently creates unique drum grooves and does it very well.  The tracks it creates sound like a real human drummer.  Takes a while to get a grip on how it works because it's extremely powerful.  But once you do, it's like having a really talented session drummer that you can instruct how to play drum tracks for you.  You can start out very general just to get a basic track, and then get very specific as you craft your tune without having to hand-sequence things (though you can do that too).

IMO also a great time to download a demo and get interested.  It's already a bargain at its normal price, and Rayzoon traditionally holds an end of year sale in December where you can get it and its expansions for a steal.

For me this is probably the one piece of music software I have that I'd consider irreplaceable.  I'm also kind of a closet drummer, and I have actually learned a lot about how to play the drums from using this software.  Oh, and swing by the Jamstix forum - it is very well supported.
Strat w/ GK-3, Godin LGXT
VG-99, GR-55, GP-10
---------------------------------------------------------------

pedwards2932

It wasn't until I ventured off into trying to make backing tracks that I got back into JamStix.  I have version 2.5 and several expansion packs I have the percussion one but never really got my head wrapped around that one.  I'm thinking I will upgrade to their latest.  You are right the forums for it are really good the guy that owns the company answers them a lot of the time.  Only thing I need to figure out is how to get the drummer to "behave" sometimes on intros, breaks, and outros just like a real drummer the composite drummer has a mind of his own.....at least he doesn't drink all the beer and hit on your girlfriend ;D

supernicd

LOL, so true.  Nor does he make a lot of noise while you're trying to think.  :D

I think you'll find control over control over fills, breaks, intros, outros, etc. to be improved in V3.  Though when I do "hand sequence" something in JS, it is typically those parts as they are usually only 1-2 bars and I often have something very specific in mind.

One of my favorite ways to use JS is this - I only recently discovered it.  I have some V-Drums.  I will play and record the MIDI of 1-2 bars on them that matches the groove I want for my song - usually just kick, snare & hat.  I then use the groove importer module and load in this short MIDI clip.  I assign a drummer to play it, and sometimes also import an element of a drummer or style from the library and let it go to town.  The result is that I have exactly the drum groove that I want for the song, played by a way better "drummer" than me.  It's my groove but he's handling the timing, dynamics, accents, fills, etc.  You can do this even without V-Drums just by sketching out the part in the bar editor.

Another thing I really like in V3 (I don't think it was in v2, haven't used it for a while) is the song builder.  You can just type out the structure of your song IVVCVCBC (intro verse chorus bridge + other options) and it will generate the song structure for you.  In addition to getting the lengths of everything right, it also magically sets up other stuff (switch from hi-hat to ride on the chorus, etc.)  Makes getting the basic track for the song stupid simple.

The Jamcussion module is really cool once you do wrap your head around it.  I like to use it with a kit but keep the volume of it lower, and it adds a new dimension.  If you upgrade to 3, the AI Pak is also a must have.  Adds a bunch of new drummers and styles for very little cost.
Strat w/ GK-3, Godin LGXT
VG-99, GR-55, GP-10
---------------------------------------------------------------

pedwards2932

I am going to definitely upgrade to 3.0 I contacted them to find out the best avenue for upgrade because I think I had all the expansion packs.  It sounds like JS 3.0 is even easier to use. 

supernicd

Very cool!  I think you'll really like the improved workflow and features.  Come on back and swap notes. :)  Even though I've had this software in various versions for something like a decade, I am always finding new things about it every time I use it.  It's a very deep program.
Strat w/ GK-3, Godin LGXT
VG-99, GR-55, GP-10
---------------------------------------------------------------

alexmcginness

Thanks for the heads up on this. Ill give it a try
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.

Mrchevy

Reading this thread inspired me to see whats new with EZDrummer since I have used it in the past with great success. There is now EZDrummer 2 and it looks like they have made some very intuitive advances with. Some reviews and videos I've seen comparing EZDrummer 2 and Jamstix indicate both are very good but opinions seem to lean towards EZDrummer 2 for ease of use and sound quality. You may want to check it out also.
Gibson Les Paul Custom
Epi Les Paul Standard
Gibson SG 50's prototype
Squire classic vibe 60's
Epi LP Modern
Epi SG Custom
Martin acoustic

Princeton chorus 210

GT100
GR-55
Helix LT
Waza Air Headphones
Boomerang III

And, a lot of stuff I DON'T need

supernicd

#11
The new EZDrummer2 does look very cool.  I was very tempted to buy it at the Sweetwater launch sale they had last year, and may pick it up if they do another one.  I've only used EZDrummer a bit - don't own it, but from my limited experience, here's my thoughts on the two.

If ease of use is your thing, I'd say EZDrummer wins.  It's less deep than JS.  It lacks the "brain", and is essentially a large collection of well organized, static MIDI files.  Whereas JS creates MIDI files on the fly according to the parameters you dial in.  With JS its fairly easy to get the basic groove you want going, but, like I said, after years of using it I'm still learning things. ;)  You can still create great sounding drum tracks with EZDrummer - but you are limited to static MIDI files as your choices.

The kits in Jamstix are excellent, but they are for the most part very raw, unprocessed samples.  It is a multi-out plug-in, so the intent is that you send the various kit pieces out to your DAW in channel groups (e.g. send toms to one track, snare to another, splashes & crashes to another, etc.), and you do the processing to make them sound like you want with other EQ, comp, reverb, etc. plug ins - just like a mix engineer does with a real recorded kit.  It gives you excellent flexibility to make the drum track sound exactly like you want but I'll admit that it is somewhat time consuming, requires some knowledge, trial & error, etc.  The good news is that most modern DAWs allow you to save & recall FX chains, so once you get something down you like you can just save the FX settings for use in future songs.

JS does offer MIDI out to other modules though, so when I'm in a hurry or after something easier, I simply point Jamstix's MIDI to something like NI Session Drummer or another plug in that has fully processed kit presets ready to go.  It has included MIDI mappings for things like the NI plugs, Addictive, EZDrummer, BFD, Steven Slate drums, etc.
Strat w/ GK-3, Godin LGXT
VG-99, GR-55, GP-10
---------------------------------------------------------------

Mrchevy

#12
I found this excellent demo from Sweetwater. One thing I will add that he didn't show was that if you open EZDrummer 2 in your DAW, after you finish your drum track in EZDrummer 2, you can drag it into the track of you DAW and drop, much like he did with the sample where he drag and dropped it onto his desk top. Here's the demo vid   
Gibson Les Paul Custom
Epi Les Paul Standard
Gibson SG 50's prototype
Squire classic vibe 60's
Epi LP Modern
Epi SG Custom
Martin acoustic

Princeton chorus 210

GT100
GR-55
Helix LT
Waza Air Headphones
Boomerang III

And, a lot of stuff I DON'T need

pedwards2932

I have a copy of EZ drummer that came with my SONAR.  It is pretty nice drum program works well if you have midi files that are exactly what you want.  What I like about JamStix is I am NOT a drummer and have no clue as to what I exactly want from a drummer.  With JamStix I get a particular style I can work with.  You can pick different drummers and give them an "audition".  I also got the Jamcussion pack which allows you to add percussion....really cool.  It also has a way to simplify if the drummer is getting a bit out of control.  All in all JamStix lets you come up with a custom made drum track with out having to have intimate knowledge of drums.....it even assures you that a drummer is capable of playing the track because it uses drum limb simulation.

Mrchevy

Those of you that use Jamstix, can you compare the two after watching the demo above. I have not used Jamstix before but it seem the things you are talking about are now available in EZDrummer 2. I'm thinking of doing the upgrade from the original EZDrummer and would be interested in your comparisons.
Gibson Les Paul Custom
Epi Les Paul Standard
Gibson SG 50's prototype
Squire classic vibe 60's
Epi LP Modern
Epi SG Custom
Martin acoustic

Princeton chorus 210

GT100
GR-55
Helix LT
Waza Air Headphones
Boomerang III

And, a lot of stuff I DON'T need

pedwards2932

They have demo download of Jamstix - http://www.rayzoon.com/jamstix3_demo.html might be helpful.  I like the randomness of the JamStix in that I don't have to do anything but aim it at the midi file.  Also jamstix works with just about any kit you may have like if you have BFD you can get JamStix to use those drums.  What I was seeing with EZ drummer and what I found with the copy that I had you have to know pretty much how you want the drum patterns but with Jamstix you just give it the midi pattern and let the drummer model take over.  On the examples that I gave I did nothing but let Charlie take the midi file.  The other is the original midi drum pattern.  Hope this make sense.  Jamstix is really quick.

supernicd

#16
Thanks for the video link - don't think I'd seen that one before.  Mitch pointed out a couple more features I didn't know EZD had.  It is very tempting.  There is some great stuff in there!

After watching, I'd say that Jamstix is still an order of magnitude more powerful.  I would somewhat liken Jamstix to a VG-99 in that what you can create with it is pretty much bottomless.  It is limited only by your imagination and the available time you have to work with it.  And also like the VG-99, there are so many parameters to play with that at times you can distract yourself from your original goal and go off on a wild tangent, which can be good or bad.  It is extremely deep.  With that depth comes some learning curve.  It can create completely unique and very human sounding performances while at the same time keeping them constrained to something that a human drummer can physically play with his 4 limbs, even taking into consideration things like fatigue and how far a kit piece is away from him.  Once you get a handle on it though, it's a fast workflow.

If I had them both, I'd probably use them both, and it would just depend on my goal and frame of mind as to which one I used.  I might even use them together, creating a track in EZD and then having a JS drummer play it. ;)

Check out the demo, and there are also videos to watch on the Rayzoon site.
Strat w/ GK-3, Godin LGXT
VG-99, GR-55, GP-10
---------------------------------------------------------------

supernicd

#17
I thought I should point out one other thing about Jamstix, which is incredibly obvious to me to the point that I now take it for granted, but might not be obvious to someone who's never used it.

The thing that makes it so special is that whether it is generating the groove, or whether you are supplying it with a MIDI track, it's drummer modeling is continuously humanizing the performance.

So say you have 1 measure of a basic four on the floor pattern.  Have a computer play it 10 times and it will play it exactly the same every time.  No matter how good the pattern is, it will start to sound mechanical after a while.  Have a human play it 10 times though and it will never be exactly the same any of those 10 times.  There will be slight variations in power levels and timing.  The variations are almost if not completely imperceptible to your conscious mind, but your unconscious mind is aware of them.  And this is what makes it sound musical, rather than mechanical.

I have seen other drum programs that have "humanize" routines and what they seem to do is add some random offset to the otherwise quantized beats.  This doesn't quite sound right either because a human's variations really aren't as random as you might think.  Whatever Jamstix does to humanize these performances is really similar to what a human does.  I don't know exactly what that is, but they have nailed it.

You really don't have to know a lot to start taking advantage of that.  Just apply a drummer model.  There are lots of knobs that can influence how it humanizes things if you feel more adventurous.  But the basic feature is really easy to use and instantly makes all your drum tracks sound like they were played by a real drummer rather than a machine.
Strat w/ GK-3, Godin LGXT
VG-99, GR-55, GP-10
---------------------------------------------------------------

pedwards2932

Have you ever used the Jamcussion module?  I wanted to use it the other day and just couldn't seem to make it work.  The latin style is just way too much.....want to simplify and I am still not certain how you blend percussionist with a drummer.  Everything I tried seemed way over the top....it would be great if you were doing Salsa but I just want some light percussion on a slow tune.

supernicd

QuoteHave you ever used the Jamcussion module?  I wanted to use it the other day and just couldn't seem to make it work.  The latin style is just way too much.....want to simplify and I am still not certain how you blend percussionist with a drummer.  Everything I tried seemed way over the top....it would be great if you were doing Salsa but I just want some light percussion on a slow tune.

I have used it.  Hard to say without knowing specifics about what you're trying to accomplish but here are some tips aside from the obvious "fiddle with the style and percussionist model controls until something works out." :)

The stock Jamcussion kits have quite a few pieces in them.  You can right click on any kit piece and remove it.  Reducing the number of kit pieces available for the percussionist to bang on should create something less over the top.  Even create your own kit from scratch and maybe just start with one piece.  Build from there.

You can also click on kit pieces, and down at the bottom you can change each piece's output channel.  By default, I think the percussion instruments are mixed in on the same channels as the drum kit pieces.  You can move the whatever is in your percussion kit to its own channel(s), and then use the mixer to bring the levels down.  Or better still, turn the mixdown option off and set Jamstix up as a multi-out plugin within your DAW.  Then you can route Jamcussion to its own separate track in your DAW and automate levels as needed.

I think there's also a silence style for Jamcussion, so you could use that to control during which parts of your song the percussionist is active at all.  Maybe it sounds better with percussion on the choruses only, for example.

Then, you can adjust the power level for Jamstix and Jamcussion separately.  If you set Jamcussion to a lower power level, it should tone down what it does.  From the manual:

QuoteThe power knob controls the overall power level used by the brain to adjust the power level of
the drum playing and also to make certain play style decisions. You can manually set this
controls or remote-control it via a MIDI controller from the host or a hardware MIDI controller.
Also, if you are using MIDI or audio jamming, the power level will be adjusted by Jamstix in
response to that input.
If you have Jamcussion installed, you can alter the perceived power level for Jamcussion by
holding ALT and then changing the power knob. This lets you adjust the relationship of drums
and percussion dynamic response.

Hope one or all of those helps. :)
Strat w/ GK-3, Godin LGXT
VG-99, GR-55, GP-10
---------------------------------------------------------------

pedwards2932

Yeah most of it makes sense....will probably make more sense as I work with it.  Can you have an instance of Jamstix running and Jamcussion seperately?  there didn't seem to be a way to have a regular kit running with some percussion as well.  I have ordered Jamstix 3 so once I get it installed I plan to try to read the manual more thoroughly.  So far most of the backing tracks I have done sound pretty good.  I was trying to  do Rock This Town and it didn't come out to well....drums were all over the place and that one has pretty simple drums and a pretty sparse kit.  I wonder if deleting the kit down will help?

supernicd

#21
I don't see why you couldn't run multiple instances of the plug-in in your DAW.  In JS3, the regular JS and Jamcussion are built to work side by side simultaneously.  I didn't get Jamcussion until after I upgraded to JS3, so I don't know how it worked in older versions.

The tip above about the power level control applies to both JC and JS.  I took me a while to realize this: don't underestimate the importance of that knob.  In fact, I now ALWAYS automate it in my DAW.  Usually, I'll assign a hardware fader to control it, and then run through the whole song with write automation turned on and just ride that fader through the whole song, bringing it down some for verses, up some for choruses, max it out for that big conclusion - whatever, as needed.  You'll get the most lifelike, realistic, and dynamic performances from JS if you take control of the power level.  It doesn't just control volume but can also control the busy-ness, what the power hand does, snare side-sticking, etc.  Learn to love the power knob if you aren't already. :)  If you don't have a hardware fader your DAW should allow you to hand draw automation for it with a mouse.  There have been times when I've adjusted every parameter under the sun only to later realize all I needed was a power adjustment.

Drums all over the place...  Well, some of the drummer models can be pretty spastic.  Removing some kit pieces might help.  Some of the more "busy" drummer models also have presets for things like "Restrained".  You can also remove particular brain elements of a drummer, or a style, so you could potentially remove the brain element of a drummer that's working overtime.  You could try a more straightforward drummer (e.g. Charlie or James Stix).  You can also add elements from another drummer or style to the current one.  There's a brain element called Simplify or Simplifier - something like that - in the Charlie model that you can pop into another drummer to tone him down.  Also in the Accents tab (in JS3) I think you can reduce the probability of them for each part, which could help simplify.

For Rock this Town I'd think a sparse kit, a straightforward drummer model, and controlling the power level would be good starting points.  For cover songs in general, sometiimes the path of least resistance is to find a good MIDI file of the drum part, then assign the best match drummer model to play it (while still controlling the power knob).
Strat w/ GK-3, Godin LGXT
VG-99, GR-55, GP-10
---------------------------------------------------------------

pedwards2932

Thanks for the help.  I loaded Jamstix 3 today so the learning curve starts tonight.  I decided to listen to the original Rock this town again and talk about sparse drums....I think he had a kick, snare, and cymbal!  I cut the midi file for a verse at 8 measures and used that to feed jamstix with that using "charlie" and this was still with Jamstix 2 but it came out a lot better.  Can't wait to dive into Jamstix 3.

supernicd

QuoteI loaded Jamstix 3 today so the learning curve starts tonight.

Have fun!  I think you'll really enjoy the new version!
Strat w/ GK-3, Godin LGXT
VG-99, GR-55, GP-10
---------------------------------------------------------------

Neardark72

I have fruityloops that I use for my drumkit and I'm tired to the time this takes.
I will download the demo version of jamstix I tonight to see what I can come out with this.