Latency Shootout: GR-55, Fishman TriplePlay, MIDI Guitar 64

Started by tomtheguitarguy, February 26, 2014, 03:39:57 PM

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tomtheguitarguy

Just found this on a Fishman Tripleplay User group on Facebook:

Comparing the Tripleplay, GR-55 and JamOrigin . . .

http://en.lebirne.com/guitar-to-midi-interfaces-shootout/

https://web.archive.org/web/20160423021812/http://en.lebirne.com/guitar-to-midi-interfaces-shootout
Guitar-to-MIDI Interfaces Shootout!
Philip Sumesgutner February 27, 2014 All, Explaining, Reviewing
Welcome to the Fishman TriplePlay, Roland GR-55 and Jam Origin MIDI Guitar 64 shootout. I really wanted to know which Guitar-to-MIDI interface is the fastest. With the arrival of the Fishman it was time for a comparison. So I set up a speed test on Logic Pro X. Curious about the results?

Hang on a little while, let me run you through my test environment setup first.

The test environment

I took a Godin Freeway SA equipped with Graph Tech Ghost technology and fitted the Fishman TriplePlay pickup onto this guitar. Then I connected the normal guitar output directly to the audio interface (Focusrite Saffire 24 Pro DSP, firewire). The Fishman sent wireless radio waves to the USB receiver, and the 13-pin cable was connected to the GR-55.

From the GR-55 I ran a cable from Guitar Out into the audio interface with just the plain, unprocessed guitar signal. Another cable connected the Left/Mono Output of the GR-55 with the audio interface with just a synth signal on it. The USB cable was connected from the GR-55 to the computer providing the MIDI signal for MIDI recording.

On the computer, a MacBook Pro, additionally to the hardware setup,I had Jam Origin's MIDI Guitar 64 running with the lowest possible latency of 128 samples, fed from the direct guitar signal to create MIDI data.

Overview of the setup for the shootout Godin Freeway SA with additional Fishman TriplePlay and GR-55
MIDI Environment and Audio Tracks in Logic Pro X Jam Origin Midi Guitar 64
This setup allowed my now to record six independent tracks simultaneously into Logic Pro X by just hitting one single string. First track was the reference signal. The synthesiser sound on the GR-55 was set to drums to get a fast rising signal.

Then it was time to press the record button in Logic Pro.

And here is the result

Guitar-to-MIDI Interface Shootout, Result! Guitar-to-MIDI Interface Shootout, Result!
Guitar-to-MIDI Interface Shootout, Result!
The discussion is over for now: the fastest Guitar-to-MIDI device on earth at this time is the Fishman TriplePlay!!

Actually, I wasn't surprised at all. When I first tried out the Fishman I couldn't believe how fast it was tracking. And this is a wireless device! And everyone who said that MIDI Guitar 64 has the fastest tracking ever has never tried a GR-55 or tried it without setting it up properly.

Is this the end of the story?

Will we all have to sell our Roland VG-99's and GR-55's and uninstall MIDI Guitar from our hard drives now? No. In my opinion the Fishman TriplePlay is not really in competition with the Roland gear. I won't use the Fishman with a computer on stage but I will use the GR-55 on stage! But when it comes to recording I love to wirelessly connect to the DAW and play drums and other sounds that require fast tracking with my TriplePlay guitar. And when I am travelling with my notebook and some electric guitar in my bag I use MIDI Guitar to quickly get some MIDI into my notebook.

Now, each device has its own strengths and application area. I love them all!

SummaryReviewerPhilip Sumesgutner  Review Date2014-02-27

Written by Philip Sumesgutner

http://www.tomtheguitarguy.com ~ http://www.tomcatsband.com
CIJ Blue Floral w/ McVay G Bender
G & L Will Ray Signature ASAT w/ Hipshot B Bender
JTV-69 James Tyler Variax
Fishman TriplePlay ~ Roland GR-55
Dr. Z RxES 2x12
Quilter MicroPro200 10" ~ Quilter Aviator 8" ~ Quilter Steelaire
Bose L1 Classic

gumtown

Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

gumtown

That's a good test,  ;)
the first time i have seen all 3 lined up together and seeing the actual results,
rather that taking someone's half baked word for millisecond values from differing test environments.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

tomtheguitarguy

http://www.tomtheguitarguy.com ~ http://www.tomcatsband.com
CIJ Blue Floral w/ McVay G Bender
G & L Will Ray Signature ASAT w/ Hipshot B Bender
JTV-69 James Tyler Variax
Fishman TriplePlay ~ Roland GR-55
Dr. Z RxES 2x12
Quilter MicroPro200 10" ~ Quilter Aviator 8" ~ Quilter Steelaire
Bose L1 Classic

Elantric


BackDAWman

It would be nice to see a comparison of the amount of ghost notes produced in each of the systems.

alexmcginness

Quote from: BackDAWman on February 26, 2014, 08:15:59 PM
It would be nice to see a comparison of the amount of ghost notes produced in each of the systems.

That would be nice. I noticed the Axon wasnt in the test either. Ive got one and it tracks quick but its glitchy but Im getting the kinks worked out of it. I use it for tracking bass parts. Its fast on the low strings in non fingerpicking mode.
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.

Spider

As I wrote on FTP Facebook group:

Is true but it is only part of the picture. On which string you do this test? Do you compare consistecy of latency. Speed isn't only one factor. FTP you could use on stage without computer. No problem. Finally FTP is the winner of course.
BTW: I tried MIDI Guitar and I'm impressed. I tested id a long time ago and it was very very quick test. Yesterday I added it to my Dock. I'm impressed. It track very good, it fast and i can play without problem. And - it is most important - it looks like it has similar latency over all string - breaking this is most noticeable for human ears. In gr55 it isn't. And produce less glitches then gr55. This is why I sold few years ago Yamaha g50 (the same technology as Axon). It was fast and accurate but gr55 has less glitches. Today I'm selling GR55 because FTP is better in both departments.
And think that MIDI Guitar would be me second tool for guitar without FTP mounts.

BTW: pls make one topic about this test because the same is in FTP sub-forum.

Deus02

I really would like to see(and hear)a comparison of the two(Triple Play and GR55) in an actual gigging environment and how they function.  Perhaps I am wrong and there is an obvious learning curve here,  but, it just seems to me that having a laptop on stage along with all the constant tinkering that goes along with it and the distractions which re-direct one's attention away from actually playing, I wonder if it is it worth it?  We also are not talking here potential computer software glitches that could occur in a venue if there was a power issue.  Perhaps I am from the old school here but, when you are playing in a band where often quick changes are necessary,a floor pod with all your preset patches in place and the ability to jump from one to the other quickly is still considerably more advantageous, that is despite, the FTPs apparent functioning technical superiority in some areas. 

Certainly, the thought of a wireless set-up is tempting but, for me until they come up with a quicker, less distracting method of making changes on the fly, for the time being anyway, I will stick with my GR55.

Comments?

Elantric

Quotebut, it just seems to me that having a laptop on stage along with all the constant tinkering that goes along with it and the distractions which re-direct one's attention away from actually playing,

I agree - thats why I use Tripleplay with an iPad + Sampletank at live gigs

Spider

But why don't use FTP in hardware mode with something like Sonic Cell or any other small hardware synth like Waldorf Blofeld? Use MIDI usb host like Kenton form me Arduino is enough), plug midi OUT to hardware synth, plug to MIDI in output from your MIDI pedal or from POD etc and change patches in FTP via MIDI. If D-pad looks dangerous (and it could be) we can cover it. Of course all setting isn't possible without TriplePlay application so you must prepare and tweak (sensitivity, mono, poly finger, pick, pedal, splits ) set of patches with computer. Using MIDI you could change Volume (on FTP) and, as I checked, is possible to use hold pedal it work in hardware mode too (using CC#66).

Elantric

QuoteBut why don't use FTP in hardware mode?

Because for my needs ( triggering lush chordal orchestral string pads or organ sounds while playing rhythm guitar) the FTP works great for my needs with just an Ipad+Apple Camera adapter   - simply inserting FTP Receiver into CCK USB Host port  = done!
- as explained here:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8427.msg60215#msg60215

Spider

I think that a lot of people doesn't know that it is possible i.e. iPad (simplest solution, extremely mobile with good visualization) or hardware mode with Kenton + external hardware synthesizer.

Elantric

Ive been vocal about this for nearly a year actually

Read this thread from April 2013

Fishman Triple Play Top Things to Know
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8427.msg60207#msg60207

But hey - it will remain my secret weapon at gigs and method I use Tripleplay 99% of the time. 

Gaustu

Maybe I am only one with my view on this, but if even FTP is the fastest it's not in my list till it isn't pick position splits able. Too great feature, once I tried that. This is so upsetting when the next generation of gear comes like pared down without something you need so much. Just my 0.00001 cents
Parker PDF85 modified: Sustainiac, SD TB-4, Piezo Hexpander 13 pin out.
GR-55 mod with 13 din thru, 6 analog outputs D-Sub => Presonus FS Mobile  8 analog inputs.
NI Reactor matchHEX Guitar Framer Ensemble custom.

Spider

Quote from: Gaustu on February 27, 2014, 04:03:07 PM
Maybe I am only one with my view on this, but if even FTP is the fastest it's not in my list till it isn't pick position splits able. Too great feature, once I tried that. This is so upsetting when the next generation of gear comes like pared down without something you need so much. Just my 0.00001 cents

??? What do you mean? Splits like in Axon or Yamaha G50?

Elantric

Quote
??? What do you mean? Splits like in Axon or Yamaha G50?

Suggest read the Axon AX-100 features

http://ftp.terratec.com/AXON/AXON_AX_100_MKII/Manuals/AXON_AX_100_MKII_Manual_EN_2.0.pdf

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may06/articles/terratecaxon.htm

Quote features were present in the original Blue Chip Axon AX100, including the ability to translate picking position (string distance from the bridge) into controller information to modify sounds or effect splits and crossfades, but these functions are now much easier to set up with the new editing software. New to this model is a two-line, 16-character display for displaying patch names or editing data, and in default mode, there's a tuner bar at the bottom of the screen that shows the current note pitch relative to a centre cursor denoting correct pitch. Alternatively, the tuner can be replaced by a level meter, which aids setting up.



http://www.musicradar.com/reviews/guitars/terratec-axon-ax-100-ii-22329/

http://www.soundblog.ro/689/axon-ax-100-mkii-controler-guitar-to-midi/





tomtheguitarguy

#17
Quote from: Gaustu on February 27, 2014, 04:03:07 PM
Maybe I am only one with my view on this, but if even FTP is the fastest it's not in my list till it isn't pick position splits able. Too great feature, once I tried that. This is so upsetting when the next generation of gear comes like pared down without something you need so much. Just my 0.00001 cents

Unless Fishman has plans to produce a double or triple FTP pickup, then I think you'll be waiting for a while.  I can live with string splits for now - and the pickup splits looks like it can be handled with a footswitch to change patches...
http://www.tomtheguitarguy.com ~ http://www.tomcatsband.com
CIJ Blue Floral w/ McVay G Bender
G & L Will Ray Signature ASAT w/ Hipshot B Bender
JTV-69 James Tyler Variax
Fishman TriplePlay ~ Roland GR-55
Dr. Z RxES 2x12
Quilter MicroPro200 10" ~ Quilter Aviator 8" ~ Quilter Steelaire
Bose L1 Classic

alexmcginness

If you can get the Axon to not glitch, and some make it work real well, I think its the quickest.
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.

Philip

I took a Godin Freeway SA equipped with the Graph Tech Ghost system built-in and fitted the Fishman TriplePlay pickup onto this guitar.
Then I set up a speed test to allow me to record the resulting six independent tracks simultaneously into Logic Pro X by just hitting one single string.

Fishman TP fastest, then GR-55 internal synth and USB MIDI next, then Jam Origin MIDI Guitar 64.

See the full article here: http://en.lebirne.com/guitar-to-midi-interfaces-shootout/

Main gear: Godin Freeway SA with Graph Tech stuff, Telecaster lite ash with Graph Tech stuff, G-Sharp with GK-3a, Ibanez Gio Mikro with GK-Kit-GT, GR-55's (plural), Focusrite Saffire Pro 24 DSP, Amplitube 3 on Macbook Pro, Line6 POD HD500, 2x FRFR RCF 310A

Elantric

To prevent redundant threads  All discussion on your Guitar to MIDI Speed test is already occurring on the existing thread here
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=10700.0

Gaustu

Quote from: alexmcginness on February 28, 2014, 02:02:14 PM
If you can get the Axon to not glitch, and some make it work real well, I think its the quickest.

Yes, that's it, I got it not glitchi after I used usb isolator with it.

QuoteWhat do you mean? Splits like in Axon or Yamaha G50?

Yes, "feels" where my plectrum is, splits the whole region from neck to bridge on 127 points, each of them can be the unique midi command.
Parker PDF85 modified: Sustainiac, SD TB-4, Piezo Hexpander 13 pin out.
GR-55 mod with 13 din thru, 6 analog outputs D-Sub => Presonus FS Mobile  8 analog inputs.
NI Reactor matchHEX Guitar Framer Ensemble custom.

Philip

If somebody could organise an Axon 100 for me (I live in Switzerland near Zurich) I can repeat the test with it.
I am very busy right now but as soon as I will find time I will run the shootout again and focus it on glitches.
Main gear: Godin Freeway SA with Graph Tech stuff, Telecaster lite ash with Graph Tech stuff, G-Sharp with GK-3a, Ibanez Gio Mikro with GK-Kit-GT, GR-55's (plural), Focusrite Saffire Pro 24 DSP, Amplitube 3 on Macbook Pro, Line6 POD HD500, 2x FRFR RCF 310A

Spider

Axon isn't as fast as FTP. TriplePlay has 1000 more power then Axon. And for sure is the best.
I own Yamaha G50 (the same tracking speed as Axon) and sold it because GR55 was slower but produced definitely less glitches. So speed isn't only one factor.

Once again:

About latency GR55/Axon/ New wireless system

"I cannot display here the graphical histogram of my GR-55 measurements, I
try to describe it. I played the lowest four notes (E,F,F#,G) quickly,
repeatedly about 100 times, in a fast, continuous riff. I measured the MIDI
response. 75% of the latency values on the histogram were under a wide Gauss
curve, centered at 28 msec, the tails at 24 and 32 msec. There was only one
single value below 20 msec, it was at 19 msec. The 25% rest were randomly
distributed between 35 and 75 msec. The same measurement for the new  WGS6000 TriplePlay
wireless guitar synthesizer (will be introduced at the winter NAMM) has a
thin Gauss curve centered at 15 msec, with the tails at 12 and 17 msec. Only
two notes were 18 and 19 msec, 98% was below 17 msec."

"First of all, there is no difference at all between the oldest and newest
Axon models; the pitch detection engine is exactly the same in all models,
they only differ in the user interface.
As the Axon already reached the theoretical minimum of latency allowed by
physics, the answer could be no. But this is not true, the essence is in the
details. Even on some Roland models -- especially the GI-20 -- you can
notice pitch detection in slightly more than one vibration period, the same
as the Axon or the new system. The question is whether this happens in 1% of
the cases, by cleanly picked individual notes, or in 99% of the notes, even
in dirty riffs. The really revolutionary thing about the Axon was not the
device itself, but the development system that I built to it. It allowed me
to detect and record every error that happened, and theoretically it was
possible to squeeze the software to repair the error. However, this process
came to an end as the necessary processing power reached the top of the
processor's capabilities, and the software became very complicated as I had
to concentrate on two things at the same time, the functional performance of
the software, and runtime optimization to fit it into the available time.
Now, on the WGS6000 TriplePlay I have a development system that is even far more
advanced than the Axon's; it took me four years to build it, while the
device itself was developed in three years. I use now a processor that has
practically unlimited available processing power. This means, I can write
much simpler software, I can concentrate on the functionality and not on
optimization. In spite of that in the current state the software requires
just slightly more than 10% of the available processing power, so there are
practically unlimited reserves for further improvements, if it would ever be
necessary. Therefore, the new system reaches the minimum latency allowed by
physiscs in practically 100% of the cases, which Roland devices perform very
rarely, and the Axon maybe in 50-70%. The enhanced reliability is reflected
especially in very stable input to Guitar to Music Notation translation, as John McLaughlin
reported me who started to use it middle of September 2011.

Andras Szalay"

Spider

Quote from: Spider on February 28, 2014, 11:25:44 AM
??? What do you mean? Splits like in Axon or Yamaha G50?

Axon and Yamaha G50 has split by pick position and G50 can use this feature (Touch Control) for sending 0-127 value for CC# (or even AF) which I use for PLG150VL in MU100R.