Are Amps Outdated?

Started by guitardude100, December 17, 2014, 04:53:39 AM

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Fusion

I use a trick on my power amp rigs, wishing I could afford the tube power amps but I can't. I use a real tube Presonus instrument/mic preamp before my signal hits the power amp. This does not distort or make any sort of high gain, it merely runs the signal into the cleaner sounding "warm" tube circuit which adds that special tube treatment to the sound, which so much is not all about distortion. The tubes act like a sponge on spike and transient peaks absorbing and taking the overall harshness out of the sound. I find it works very well for my unorthodox amp rig. I do love tube amps and half stacks and used them for many a year. There is more to tubes than dirt and distortion hence great sounding cleaner tube preamps. As far as the modeling tube thing, I say Kemper all the way.
I have a much beloved Tech21 SansAmp PSA 1.1 in my rack and I challenge to listen outside the room to those tones and not think there are serious tube amp tones going on. That unit is 100% all analog tube emulator circuit, very underrated. Running the out of the PSA into the PreSonus makes for really nice sounding tones.
"Long ago in days of old when magic filled the air..."

DF400

In much the same manner as Alec Lee, I purchased an AxeFX Ultra back in 2009. I was so impressed with the modeling, effects and flexibility that I rarely considered hauling amps to gigs from that point forward. Prior to the AxeFX, I owned the Roland VG-88, which was decent (although I never gigged with it). I do actually us the GR-55 modeling, mostly due to alternate tuning and the ease of setting it up.

I still own several amps, and love the tones I get from them. I have considered buying another tube amp - but to get that tonal sweet spot requires volumes that will not work for most of our venues. That said, I am considering selling some, if not all of my amps.

alexmcginness

#27
Heres the best late 50s Les Paul emulator interacting with an amazing tube emulator. Ive yet to hear better. What this guitar emulator does with just the volume knob is what its all about. Theres nothing like old wood and real PAFs working real tubes.



From an interview with Gary:

How do you like your guitars to be set up in terms of the action and string gauge? 

Well, I don't use a really low action. I don't like it because it starts to get a bit chinky off the top. You've got to be really careful about that so I don't like it too low. I used to use heavier strings than I do now, but a couple of years ago I injured my hand and I had to go down a gauge. I got used to how they felt and I liked it, and it didn't really affect the sound. So I use .009-.048 now. I was using .010-.052 before. But I'm actually working my way back up again, because I started with .009-.046, and I'm trying to work my way back up to maybe up to .050s again. It's more in the bottom strings where you notice the tone anyway. 

What type of picks do you use? 

I use a Gibson extra heavy. I like a really heavy pick. It just suits my style better. I used to use those gray Herco picks, which are lighter. I used those for years, even in Thin Lizzy. Everyone in Thin Lizzy used those picks, even Phil Lynott.
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.

Frankster

Quote from: alexmcginness on December 20, 2014, 10:39:33 AM
Heres the best late 50s Les Paul emulator interacting with an amazing tube emulator.

Could someone upload that patch please?  ;)

alexmcginness

VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.

guitardude100

#30
Quote from: alexmcginness on December 20, 2014, 10:39:33 AM
Theres nothing like old wood and real PAFs working real tubes.

But there are so many variables that it almost becomes irrelevant if your guitar is some old rare vintage model with an extinct species of wood.

You can buy some holy grail of guitars which may be well built, but then you start playing it with your technique, with certain strings, with your pick, through a certain brand of leads, through a pedal board, through and amp, through a mic, through a PA, through a speaker... not to mention and entire band is playing along with you.
With a blind test even the best of us coundnt tell if it is a 1950's gretch or a strat straight off the shelf.

this isnt directed at you, its just a rant,   but it irritates me when people insist that the old L series strats are so superior to modern strats. The strats that hendrix played weren't the greatest guitars ever made. They were great off the shelf guitars that were in a practical price range for allot of people. Why 40 year later are they suddenly considered to be so desirable?  Because we associate all those old rocker with them, and we listened to their CDs over and over and love their sound.   But all great musicians aren't stuck in the past. They are constantly searching and finding new things. The greatest guys have probably tried every string brand and every pick in existence. And when I hear them talk none of them seem to be purists or fanatical about a certain piece of equipment. The biggest compliment they seem to give is to say "yes i'm quite happy with this guitar... but...."


I should point out that i have a stracocater re-issue of the 66 model. I put this through a twin reverb amp which is also a re-issue. A bit of reverb and it sounds great, no pedals needed. Cranked it sounds even better.   So I guess I was a purist looking to the past, but it sounds great nonetheless.   But now music is really changing and developing and I think thats why guitar is disappearing from modern music. If we are always trying to stick to a sound from the past then we start to sound like an instrument from the past. Like an upright piano. 

If guitarist start working with speakers more I think the markets will adapt and we will find that sound we want along with many other sounds.

rolandvg99

I'm not claiming anything here, but I've been asked numerous times by so called experts about what tube amps I use to achieve my live sound and where I hide them. The need of having a guitar amp onstage is not as obvious as most like to think. Most of the time, when we guitarist think we have the greatest sound ever, we tend to forget the fact that our ears are not attached to our legs. That smooth, fat sound we experience might sound harsh and brittle through the mic and PA. With IEMs you hear what the audience hears (if mixed correctly). If the IEMs sounds bad, one shouldn't be surprised if the FOH sucks just as bad. I sometimes set up a small wedge in front to aid feedback when needed. It doesn't need to sound good either as what I hear goes through the IEMs.


In a large venue, on a huge stage, a huge amp-stack tend to drown behind the PA, but in a mid sized club they are most likely to ruin FOH sound. I've played with bass players and other guitarist that insists on having their stage volume high. 1200 watts fed into 8x10" bass cabs easily wrecks a club job sound wise. Any guitar heads running into 4x12" or more does the same. They may sound full and punchy on their own, but together they're creating a boom fest to drive the audience away.


If the audience complains about you/your band having bad sound, don't blame the FOH-engineer, blame yourself.
To V or not to V: That is the question.

My little Soundcloud corner

Frankster

I'm not a Gary Moore fan but that clip made me realise something about the amp/COSM debate.

I've never watched a clip of anyone playing a modelling amp and been utterly stunned at how good the player's tone was. I may have thought ok, that's a nice overdrive sound or those are really nice effects but not once have I been stopped in my tracks at how beautiful the basic guitar sound was.

Anyone got any clips that will change my mind on this?

alexmcginness

Quote from: Frankster on December 21, 2014, 06:56:39 AM
I'm not a Gary Moore fan but that clip made me realise something about the amp/COSM debate.

  Im mot a huge Gary Moore fan either but I posted the clip to show what that combination of wood pickups and tubes can do. Its not just the tone but the response. This is what you can do with just the volume knob. Those old PAFs with old wood just work in a way that modelers dont. Ill give you another example. The guitar sound in Black Dog. Thats Old wood and PAFs and NO AMP! Thats right. Jimmy Pages 59 plugged into an 1176 compressor driving another 1176 and then straight into the mixer. The part was triple tracked according to Andy Johns.
   The point of this thread is are amps outdated. IMO and from my experience the answer is no. Theres still a relavant place for them. I hope modelling will progress that the difference will be negligable. I use the 99 on the road and get by with it. People often ask me what amp Im using as well. They have the odd special cruise on the boats I work on where blues band come on board with guitar amps. ( tubes ) Theyre loud but they sound. You can certainly approximate the sound with modelers but when you play the real thing you hear and more importantly feel the difference. The response is what the modelers havent gotten yet and you can see it when you watch the beginning of the Gary moore clip. When he backs off the volume those old PAFs still have that clarity and chime that the new ones dont and unless you have some youll never experience it. Thats OK. Ive had this talk with guys all over and for a long time I was on the other side of the fence until I got my first real PAFs and heard what they do with a real amp. It was a total epiphany for me.

VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.

Frankster

It's not just the Les Paul/PAF/overdrive sounds though. I'm a Strat/Tele player and the vast majority of my guitar sound is clean and compressed Vox AC30/Fender Twin style. Listening to the modelled sounds, they're good sounds but for me they don't compete with the real tube sound. The digital stuff always sounds ever so slightly digital to me (or sometimes more than slightly!) Listen carefully through a good sound card and headphones and there's a kind of digital "halo" surrounding the notes that gives it away as modelled whereas the tube amp just sounds more natural.

And once you start noticing it, you can't put up with a digital sound on recordings. The GP-10 has a lot to recommend it; recording demos, instant access to alternate tunings, you can't beat it for those applications but when I go into the studio to do a final recording I replace as many of the digital guitar sounds as possible with the tube amp and a mic on the speaker.

Pete1959

Are amps outdated? No, a tube amp in good working order just can't be beat IMHO.
Do I use them? No.
The compromise from perfect tone is replaced with the benefit of alternate tunings, guitar and amp models.
The greatest problem with modeling is the amount of time it takes to really tweak the sound to one's liking despite the compromise.

It just seems that old tube amps just plain sound great at pretty much any setting...for that particular amp only.
IMHO  I can't get Fender tone from a Marshall and neither can sound as sweet as an old Vox or JC120 (transistor?) amp when it comes to clean. So to get perfect tones in a gig, I would be packing about 600 Lbs of old amps not to mention, Strats, Teles, LesPauls, ES335s and perhaps a P90 to get that right tone.... Ain't gonna happen!

That's where modeling shines for me. Besides, the old amp tones vary by changing tubes, speakers, etc so even the exact same model will sound different. Some of my purist friends will confess their amps are "hot-rodded" or their Marshall has an extra gain stage. Nice, but not for me and being a "baby boomer", don't ask me to carry your Fender Twin or haul that Marshall 4 x 12" up some stairs.

I lack the talent of many of the amazing members of this forum and I salute you all and have listened to many of your recordings and sound-wise, I'm impressed with whatever you used. If I get brave, perhaps I will upload my attempts at getting old amp tone via MP3 and patch. Speaking of which, I find the gap between digital and analog amps is much narrower than many of those horrible MP3 recordings people listen to whether they are "from the net" or ripped from a CD and sampled at say, 128 Kbps.


Fusion

I think from a guitar synth standpoint, tube amps are not the deal. Great for std guitar but for the extended range of the synth and lack of need for distortion and clipping there are better ways. I use a hybrid system myself. I loved my half stacks over the years but I do not miss buying sets of tubes and setting bias.
I would not run my guitar synth rig into a guitar amp unless it was bypassing the preamp into the effect return which I used twins for a number of years until I blew them out. Depends on what you're after. There is no one right way to do much of anything. Some guys like full range powered speakers, I prefer my 12" guitar speaker - power amp rigs.
"Long ago in days of old when magic filled the air..."

thebrushwithin

QuoteAnd once you start noticing it, you can't put up with a digital sound on recordings

Well, the Kemper changed my mind about all of that.

Elantric

#38
QuoteWell, the Kemper changed my mind about all of that.

Same Here - After my recent Studio work with my Kemper, the producer prefers I use the Kemper and keep my Tube Amps at Home.

Nothing can replace years of hands on experience with real gear, in real situations at live gigs and in Studio, and spending days with different amps, speakers, mics, mic placement, Outboard Mic Pres, Teletronix/Urei Tube Limiters, Neve EQ's  - to capture great guitar tones on your recordings.   

When I talk to younger guitarists there is an impatience and a "disconnect" that many of them have for the effective use of tools available today.

Bulk of them use a cheap Amp /FX modeler at home with headphones  and have never played a real tube amp, and never have played loud enough to experience infinite sustain that changes when you rotate 90 degrees, or learn the importance of string control via muting the "non-wanted" strings

So I'm thankful for spending years in the pursuit of sound at various levels  - but nothing can replace my formative years ages 15-18 when these were my only tools (1970-1973):

'61 Gibson SG Special
'70 Plush "Twin Twelve" ( Fender Twin Reverb Clone)
'69 Fender Dual Showman Cab (JBL D130F)

My band played lots of Santana, The Who, Grand Funk RailRoad, Allman Brothers  covers



https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=82.0

Deacon Blue

The bottom line is as always, every person hears music and sounds in their own particular way. As we all know, one person's excellent killer tone is somebody else's sh** noise, so round and round we go, searching for those holy grail sounds that are so personal and individualistic. But that's OK. That's music, plain and simple. We musicians tend to be gear junkies which is part of the fun of making music, but we are gear tweakers of the highest order. That's part of the process as long as you're having fun doing it. When you find that special sound that makes you feel great, it's all worth it and you can't wait to tell the world. Just remember it's still about the music and not the gear... ;)
"When your project isn't working, look for the part that you didn't think was important"
www.Bandmix.com/katylyst

whippinpost91850

Quote from: thebrushwithin on December 24, 2014, 06:15:12 AM
Well, the Kemper changed my mind about all of that.

Agree 100% and more Live or Recorded

whippinpost91850

#41
Quote from: Elantric on December 24, 2014, 06:18:39 AM
Same Here - After my recent Studio work with my Kemper, the producer prefers I use the Kemper and keep my Tube Amps at Home.

Nothing can replace years of hands on experience with real gear, in real situations at live gigs and in Studio, and spending days with different amps, speakers, mics, mic placement, Outboard Mic Pres, Teletronix/Urei Tube Limiters, Neve EQ's  - to capture great guitar tones on your recordings.   

When I talk to younger guitarists there is an impatience and a "disconnect" that many of them have for the effective use of tools available today.

Bulk of them use a cheap Amp /FX modeler at home with headphones  and have never played a real tube amp, and never have played loud enough to experience infinite sustain that changes when you rotate 90 degrees, or learn the importance of string control via muting the "non-wanted" strings

So I'm thankful for spending years in the pursuit of sound at various levels  - but nothing can replace my formative years ages 15-18 when these were my only tools (1970-1973:

'61 Gibson SG Special
'70 Plush "Twin Twelve" ( Fender Twin Reverb Clone)
'69 Fender Dual Showman Cab (JBL D130F)

My band played lots of Santana, The Who, Grand Funk RailRoad, Allman Brothers  covers



https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=82.0

Sounds a lot like my story and I'm sticking to it

Fusion

I think for sure it is a level of experience, putting high tech gear into the hands of the neophyte player with no real background in the std guitar arena yields these bedroom headphone cats with a horrendous over processed sound that simply would fall on its face in a band or live scene. I use a lot of gear but I do not use washed out complex sounds that would just not work in a band format, which is a whole different animal. Nothing like playing with a great drummer to show you just how little of all that panning, delay, complexity is just not going to work. There is an art to keeping the complex, simple and cutting through the mix.

I only wish I could afford a Kemper, anyone with Santa's ear should drop a message for me.
I've been playing now 40yrs and if I had the rig and gear I have developed now would truly be overwhelming not to mention no knowledge on how to hook things up.
For many, a simple amp is the ball game, for others looking for the next level there is a whole lot of cool gear out there for the adventurous minded experienced player.
So are you experienced, have you ever been experienced???? well, I have.
 
"Long ago in days of old when magic filled the air..."

Frankster

Difficult to tell from a compressed youtube video but yes, the Kemper seems to have a good sound. And yes, there were a couple of times when I found it too raspy and times when I thought it sounded digital. Maybe it's the closest approximation to a tube amp, maybe it'll sound near perfect when it's mixed in with other instruments, maybe I'd be fooled. The fact remains that I know how my tube amp will sound and I have never thought hmm, that's a bit too harsh or maybe it needs warming up. It sounds exactly right all the time. Not 99% of the time, all the time.

thebrushwithin

The Kemper is only as good as the profile being played, just like, not every tube amp has a great sound. If all tube amps had that magic sound, 99.9% of the time, then you could save a ton of money, by buying the least expensive, and least bulky. Same principle applies to the Kemper. If you have any friends with one, spend an hour profiling your magic sound, and try a blindfold test. You will then see what everyone is talking about. Through this experience for the last 2yrs., I have some favorite profiles of brands that I would never have had the opportunity to play. Also, finding great ones, has become much more frequent, with some of the meticulously profiled commercial offerings. The commercial rigs are as cheap as IOS apps too. Many players also, are profiling their own prized amp collections, and leaving them at home, while gigging with the Kemper. Pretty cool ! I hope you get the opportunity to try one.

supernicd

Quote from: whippinpost91850 on December 24, 2014, 01:09:23 PM
Sounds a lot like my story and I'm sticking to it

I started out the, uh, "other" way, with a Boss GT-3 and several other MFX's before I ever got a tube amp.  I'd download patches from the internet or create my own or tweak the factory presets, typically at bedroom levels.  Then I'd go to practice and wonder why my tone sounded horrid, thin, digital, grainy, or washed out.  Then go back to the bedroom, rinse and repeat the whole process.

Some years later I got frustrated and finally bought a tube amp, and it solved that problem.  There was another unexpected benefit though.  When I went back to try my modelers/MFXs, suddenly I could play them better and dial them in better.  Much better.  Because I knew what sound and play feel I wanted from them and began to tweak them to react that way.  There was a piece of my education missing before that was now there.

So yes, completely agree that this is an experience that shouldn't be skipped over.  Even though I am  currently using modelers and solid state gear on stage, I wish I hadn't skipped over the analog gear experience for so long. Turns out it was fundamental.
Strat w/ GK-3, Godin LGXT
VG-99, GR-55, GP-10
---------------------------------------------------------------

Fusion

There are various tricks and additions I use to round out the digital realm that some will poo poo on as people do to about anything. But there are ways to enhance the Kemper, synth and other things to add in a little of the tube analog goodness without resorting to tube amps entirely. One does not have to abandon one for the other, and yes quite true a crappy model is a crappy tone. One reason I do not always understand the drive and desire to keep trying to copy and mimic ancient amp tones and products using ultra high end technical units and bitching they do not sound the exact same. How could they? Perhaps that is looking at the issue from a back assward point of view. How about an optimal sounding amp that uses great tube characteristics and feel without having to exist in a 1959 flashback.
As to what I use on my rig, I rather not say as I  care little for the arguments and negative comments of which I know what I use and do improves and makes the sound so much better. I do not own a Kemper right now as they are just out of my budget ability but if I could I would much rather have that than any number of old amps and are severe heavy maintenance.
"Long ago in days of old when magic filled the air..."

whippinpost91850

Quote from: thebrushwithin on December 25, 2014, 05:37:29 AM
The Kemper is only as good as the profile being played, just like, not every tube amp has a great sound. If all tube amps had that magic sound, 99.9% of the time, then you could save a ton of money, by buying the least expensive, and least bulky. Same principle applies to the Kemper. If you have any friends with one, spend an hour profiling your magic sound, and try a blindfold test. You will then see what everyone is talking about. Through this experience for the last 2yrs., I have some favorite profiles of brands that I would never have had the opportunity to play. Also, finding great ones, has become much more frequent, with some of the meticulously profiled commercial offerings. The commercial rigs are as cheap as IOS apps too. Many players also, are profiling their own prized amp collections, and leaving them at home, while gigging with the Kemper. Pretty cool ! I hope you get the opportunity to try one.

This is axactly as I find my KPA to be.

imerkat

Are Amps out date? Tube amp technology is outdated but not obsolete. As a tone generator it's something a tube amp does naturally. Comparing to a automobile isn't really analogous; They are more like Motorcycles. Suzuki isn't putting Harley Davidson out of business. It's not an either or situation at all, I have a power soak that I can plug my tube amp into an IR Cab Sim to go straight into the PA. A lot of Pro's that use modeling gear like the AxeFx still plug it in to a power amp and mic' a speaker cab.


Toby Krebs

Quote from: Jim Williams on December 20, 2014, 03:40:13 AM
Putting your sound in front of you is a bad idea so I would say that is a bad idea to disregard amps all together. you still need to have something behind you so you and your band mates can hear the guitar mixed with the band. Coming through the monitors is another idea but then you need to have a separate monitor mix. I suggest a new approach to amps on stage power amps and FRFR speakers.

For a power amp try this: http://usa.matrixamplification.com/gt-800-fx.html

for speaker cabs look here: http://www.accugroovellc.com/




It will cost as much as a good tube amp and cab but it will make guitar modeling 100 more times more realistic.



I still like using my Marshall with my TC Nova system in the loop with a few pedals in front. real is better but modeling is catching up fast.



Paul Pesco of Hall and Oates and a bunch of other  big name bands puts two QSC K10s in front of him.
He knows a thing or two.
I sometimes do the same thing.
Lots of ways to skin the cat!