Supervee Bladerunner

Started by aliensporebomb, January 13, 2012, 08:28:01 PM

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thebrushwithin

Does anyone know if the Bladerunner would work on a Fernandes Dragonfly? The two I own are older models that basically look like a Strat, with a similar tremelo. Thanks in advance.

Elantric

#51
Im not seeing any Dragonflys that look like they use a Strat style Bridge.
http://www.fernandesguitars.com/dragonfly/dragonfly-deluxe.html


But - I have a similar Fernandes RetroRocket Pro with Sustainer

http://www.fernandesguitars.com/retrorocket/retrorocket-pro.html

Compared to recent MIM Strats,  The Fernandes RetroRocket Pro has a classic 6 screw bridge which is a closer match to a true '61 Fender American Strat - 



The Bladerunner 6 screw should work.

thebrushwithin

#52
Great! I am thinking of adding the FTP, and a Bladerunner. I have another Dragonfly, same version, that I had a ghost system installed in. The best thing about the FTP, to me, is how easily it goes on and off, cause I intend to mount it also on my two archtops, and I only wish to buy one FTP. I have been impressed by some of the Bladerunner videos, and the recommendations from our beloved forum! The trem on the red Dragonfly is useless, but this model does resemble what they call a Retrorocket now, and it has the usual block and springs, but a different arm than a Strat, internal threads. Thanks again for your post.

aliensporebomb

#53
It might be useless now but with a Supervee you'll be surprised at what you can get away with.   

I think the key is to have a headstock with a straight string pull straight thru the headstock - it seems to be the problems begin when you have a "six on a side" type headstock where the string angle changes after the nut to the headstock and you get potential tuning issues when using a whammy.

Which is why I have this:


That's mostly straight thru.

And this:


The Carvin is really straight thru and the tuning stability surprised me.  I was told to expect terrible stability and that's not the case.

But you'll notice on the strat the string angle changes slightly north of the nut (but the Supervee seems to counter a lot of design ills).  That is not a locking trem (although I've considered the locking Supervee for a future guitar).



And a lot of shred guitars have the string angle change abruptly north of the nut:


So the only way that one stays in tune is if it's locked when using the whammy.

You want me to do a Supervee demo of the tuning stability?

My latest guitar has sperzel locking keys and a Wilkinson trem and I was surprised I could do synth-like pitch swoops without going out of tune:





My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Now_And_Then

Quote from: aliensporebomb on January 13, 2012, 08:28:01 PM




I kinda like that orange-sparkle finish. I'm no fan of gaudy finishes or elaborate inlays but I kinda like it.

musicman65

Anyone with a Bladerunner, I'd like you guys to perform a tuning stability test for me if you can.

1. Tune up with a good tuner. Don't play anything, just tune up. Bump the trem and recheck/retune until its dead on after dropping pitch and returning.

2. Bend the G string HARD at the 7th fret, up 3 steps.

3. Check and report if the G string goes flat. All stock trems do...some more than others. If an ooen G chord still sounds good, it is tolerable.

4. After the bend and tuning check,  bump the trem, dropping pitch at least 1 step. Did it return to the pre-bend perfect tuning? Most do.

Thanks to anyone who can do this and report back.

Elantric

#56
The SuperVee has excellent low friction pivot points, but your test process must also accept the fact that a perfectly hinged floating tremolo is only part of the equation. You must also use a lubricated Nut and staggered height locking tuners or if it's a stock vintage Strat know the "one wrap / reverse self locking " string up procedure for the pre 1965 style Kluson tuners. If your guitar needs a string tree for the D & G string, you will have a constant battle of tremolo instability.

If you doubt that the length of string above the Nut makes any significant contribution to Tremolo stability, educate yourself by using a Sharpie permanent marking pen, and place small marks on your strings up above the nut, then look closely at these marks while you manipulate the Tremolo bar throughout its full up down range. Notice how the G string moves quite a bit, thus the importance of maintaining a well lubricated Nut. I use Graph-Tech TUSQ Trem Nuts.

The best tremolo in the world is worthless if you forget to check for string binding in the Nut, and also if you use Tuners with too tall tuning posts ,with the need for additional string trees , you face a loosing battle as these provide another source of problems. Also if you  use 7 wraps of string on your tuners, seems many folks are surprised when these string wraps unravel and expand like a garden hose on a reel  first time they push the term bar all the way down for a full dive bomb, with the resulting "the guitar goes sharp after any term bar use".

The "speaking string length" is the length of string between the Nut and the Bridge.
Shorten or eliminate all "non speaking" string length, and you will be on the right track to achieve tremolo bar success.

musicman65

Thanks for the tips Elantric. You covered most of the issues with trems. The test I'm asking someone to try assumes the nut is lubed and is strung with staggered locking tuners and no trees. The last point of binding that is typically not addressed, apart from using a locking bridge, is the binding over the saddle, through the trem plate and block...the other end of the string.

My test will quickly reveal bridge binding....so, who's gonna provide a real world unbiased test for me?

mbenigni

#58
musicman, give me a day or so, and if no one else has stepped up I'll run your test for you.  Meanwhile, more rambling about the setup notes above:

I put Bladerunners on both my strats (and I like them a lot) but since then I've set up a couple of strats with just the traditional 6-screw part, and it's amazing how well you can make these things perform if you pay attention to all of the other variables.  As great as the Bladerunner is, I think the most valuable thing that came in the package was a little photocopied slip of paper with the recommendation that you put a compression spring underneath your strat's string tree - so that you can tune its height to reduce break angle, and minimize drag on itself and the nut.  I didn't have a spring handy, so I just stripped about 1/8" of insulation off a wire, threaded the screw through that, and put the tree back on the headstock.  This worked well enough that I've continued using the trick on any strat that comes my way.  The basic idea is to get the tree higher than on a typical factory setup, and it's a big deal IMO.  (Thank you, SuperVee!)

So... eliminate the tree, or if the tree is necessary, raise it as high as you can while still allowing it to do it's job (provide sufficient down-force on the nut); lubricate the nut; take your time going back and forth until the trem's spring tension is absolutely correct vs. the string tension for your preferred amount of float.  (Regarding the last point:  I can't explain why it even makes sense, but I've had good results when I use Carl Verheyen's spring setup method - search VGuitar or YouTube.)  Do all of this, and almost any strat style bridge can be made to play well and hold it's tune through a surprising amount of abuse.  Higher-end parts like the Bladerunner make life easier, but they're almost unnecessary*.  Icing on the cake.


*I wouldn't believe this if I hadn't seen it myself over this past year or so.  Lord knows I've spent enough money on replacement bridges and guitars equipped with every sort of high-tech bridge over the years.  The good old, Fred Flintstone Stratocaster can hold its tune.

thebrushwithin

@mbenigni
One of the benefits mentioned in many videos, is the increased sustain and clarity  from the Bladerunner.
Do you find that to be true, as well?

mbenigni

#60
Quote from: thebrushwithin on April 14, 2014, 08:46:44 AM
@mbenigni
One of the benefits mentioned in many videos, is the increased sustain and clarity  from the Bladerunner.
Do you find that to be true, as well?

Yes.  It's been a while since I've heard A vs. B in close succession, but I remember when I first swapped out the stock bridge on my RR with the Bladerunner, it sounded much better, and significantly louder to me.  At the time, I was even convinced that it had improved tracking - and perhaps it did - but after the fact I realized that I had also tweaked GK height while setting up the bridge, so my conclusions were hardly scientific.

It's always hard to say months after the fact how much of your impressions were real, and how much was "honeymoon effect".  But my overall sense is that the Bladerunner improves tone.  This is probably on account of the more solid contact between the Bladerunner and the body, compared with a traditional 6-point set up to float.  (If you really deck a 6-point, and use good saddles etc, you'd probably have a comparable tone, but then you don't have a functioning trem, so it becomes a moot point.)

musicman65

The reason I am interested in the Bladerunner is due to the increased price and unavailability of the original Super-Vee double locking trem. I use them on my #1 and #2 Strats and they are FLAWLESS. I am talking 0% tuning issues no matter the abuse...like a good Floyd Rose setup.

If the BR trem can take my heavy handed playing and abuse, I will consider one in an upcoming build I am planning.

My standard build includes:

1 RR Strat (used) $500
1 22 Fret Maple neck $200
1 Dimarzio Area 61, 67, 58 set $220
1 Super-Vee Locking trem $400
1 Tremsetter stabilizer $30

That's $1350. I generally look for used or discounted new hardware on EBay to reduce the cost.

A Bladerunner would reduce this by another $200 but I'd have to add locking tuners $60. I'd also lose the ability to repair and reuse a broken string on the fly (an old Floyd Rose trick).

Convince me that a BR can pass my bridge binding test and I may give one a try. The Super-Vee passes perfectly.

Elantric

Add Locking Tuners and you should be good to go.

Mine stay in tune  - and returns to pitch after dive bombs very well - as long as i use Locking Tuners!

CodeSmart

I have a Fender Strat American Special with 6 screw whammy bar.
I used to be a pain in the but. But then:

1. I replaced with Fender locking Tuners.
2. Throw away the D&G string-tree idiotic construction.
3. Every time I replace strings I use only a few turns and
I put graphite from a pen on the top string stable for easy slide.

IT "NEVER" GETS OUT OF TUNE !!  ;D

But I got more gear than I need...and I like it!

musicman65

You guys are killing me! I've got Strats with stock trem setups with all the same tricks and tips applied...and NONE can pass my test. I have a theory that Strat players, due to the love of the Strats undeniably sonic superiority and tonally beautiful character, have become pitch tolerant!!! :D Hendrix, anyone?

Do the test using a good tuner (GR55 or VG99 poly tuner is great) and tell me honestly what your G string does after a hard bend, and then after a trem dive. It WILL go flat after the bend then correct itself after the dive...or go normal after the bend and sharp after the dive if you tune it that way.

Now, if the Bladerunner has corrected bridge binding at the saddle,  trem baseplate, and block (assuming staggered locking tuners, no trees, and graphite nut) then I'll give it a try. Prove it!

mbenigni

#65
Quote from: musicman65 on April 14, 2014, 10:18:15 PM
You guys are killing me! I've got Strats with stock trem setups with all the same tricks and tips applied...and NONE can pass my test. I have a theory that Strat players, due to the love of the Strats undeniably sonic superiority and tonally beautiful character, have become pitch tolerant!!! :D

Maybe a little pitch tolerant, but more likely: subconsciously careful with our trems.  After I've set up a strat, and confirmed that it's holding tune by beating on it a bit, I pretty much never play it that hard again.  Even if I need to dive/flutter/whatever, there's something in the back of my head saying, "Easy now - let's try to be in tune for the rest of this song."  I'm not exactly backtracking here; a strat can stay in tune.  I'm just not willing to bet the rest of my set that it will in any given moment.  :)

Quote from: musicman65 on April 14, 2014, 10:18:15 PMDo the test using a good tuner (GR55 or VG99 poly tuner is great) and tell me honestly what your G string does after a hard bend, and then after a trem dive. It WILL go flat after the bend then correct itself after the dive...or go normal after the bend and sharp after the dive if you tune it that way.

I have to admit, I didn't touch the guitar last night, but I'll be sure to test tonight.  Still, this is always going to come down to a quantitative analysis, i.e. how hard to bend up?  I can make just about any string go flat - even with a Floyd, even with a fixed bridge - by bending hard enough.

The more important question IMO is:  do you want a Floyd (specifically, a SuperVee) or do you want a strat bridge?  Even assuming they both hold their tune precisely, there are things the Floyd will do that the traditional(ish) part never will.  Are you ready to give that up?

musicman65

A 3 fret bend is part of the test. I doubt anyone would bend more than that. Once a string is stretched adequately, it won't go flat on a 3 or even 4 fret bend unless something slips....tuner, locking nut or bridge, etc.

True, if you bend a string far enough, it will stretch! A 3 fret bend isn't far enough. :D

As far as giving up FR perks....maybe. I don't do huge dive bombs a lot. I mostly use the trem to waver chords and create legato notes that float about fluidly in solos. A stock trem was good enough for Jimmi...if it'll hold tune within 3 cents, I'm game! I can always swap in a Super-Vee Locker later if it doesn't deliver.

I'd like someone to tell me if an open G chord still sounds reasonably in tune after a 3 fret bend and then again after a hard pitch drop. :D

IanRamos

#67
musicman65 , i have in my main axe a BladeRunner as well as a Fender LSR nut and rolling string tree , so as little friction as possible .

if you do a deep dive bomb ( someting like an octave down , like you would do with a floyd rose ) IT WILL go out of tune , this is because the ball bearing string ends will move inside the tremolo block and it's unavoidable unless you lock the string in the bridge end of the strings ... ( single locking floyd roses have the same problem ) .

however , only my G string go sharp in that case , the rest of the strings hold the pitch pretty well ...

if you are very interested , i can make a video demo showing the guitar , so you see the BladeRunner in action .

mbenigni

#68
Musicman, I did your test on both of my strats last night.  One of them (the newer GC-1) is just a hot mess.  Never did get this one quite dialed in.  It'll go pretty widely flat, then sharp between bends and dives.  Pretty sure I can make it a whole lot better, but I'll have to start from the beginning, i.e. look at spring tensions again, etc. 

My older Roland-Ready strat, which I expected would pass your test, actually does exhibit the problem you describe:  the G goes measurably flat after a 3-step bend, and then returns to pitch (or even slightly sharp) after a dive.  I don't think it would pass your 3 cents requirement; it's probably somewhere between 5 and 10.  (Never more than 1 line of LEDs out on a Polytune Mini in single-string mode, if you're familiar with that display.)  You'd still get away with a G chord in a live mix and no one but you would notice, probably.  But no, it isn't quite right.   :-\

However, I'll take this as a personal challenge.   :)  I'd swear I had the RR working better when I first set it up, and I feel like it can be improved.  It's been a while since I put any lube on the nut, for instance.  (Many thanks to whoever named these things LOL.)  I'll try to dial it in further this weekend and keep you posted.

musicman65

Mbenigmi,

Thanks for the results. I assume both are Bladerunner equipped?

As an engineer with 30 years of tinkering with trems, I have discovered that the one binding spot on a stock trem that can't be adequately addressed is the saddle to trem plate contact points. The string changes angle too drastically in both places. I have re-contoured and polished the trem plate holes where the string goes into the block and it helps. String Saver saddles are an improvement also. My stock MiM Strat with these mods drops about 5 to 7 cents when everything else is right. I was hoping the Bladerunner had even better improvements.

Anyone else want to take the challenge? :D

musicman65

Ian,

Thanks. I'd like to know how your setup does on my quick test.

You are correct about the ball ends reseating differently. Fender Bullets solve that issue buried don't bother with that. Staggered Locking Tuners, no trees, and an LSR or graphite nut solve issues on the other end. My concern is the binding on the bridge end which is most noticeable on the G string. It has the largest diameter core and binds more sliding over angles.

aliensporebomb

You want me to do a video where I go nuts on the whammy with Supervee Bladerunner?  I was going to do that anyway since I'm using those new Ernie Ball M-Steel strings and that, with the Bladerunner is the most stable stock strat setup I've ever had, ever. 

My vg strat guitar does have a graphite nut though.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

mbenigni

Musicman, yes - both my strats have Bladerunners.  Aside from the pivot point being reengineered, the overall design is largely the same as a traditional bridge.  The break angle and friction behind the saddle is still a concern.  To be honest, I never really thought about it much, tending to focus on the headstock where I can actually improve matters.  :)  Now you've got me wondering whether lubricating the saddle could improve things at all.  I assume you've tried this?  Obviously it's something you'd have to tend to pretty frequently, since your right hand would constantly be "cleaning" the bridge.  Not really much of a solution...

Aliensporebomb, I for one would like to see a video where you go nuts.  :D

IanRamos

#73
Quote from: musicman65 on April 16, 2014, 10:13:19 AM
Ian,

Thanks. I'd like to know how your setup does on my quick test.


As i told you , the only case in which my guitar goes out of tune is with a deep dive bomb ... with any kind of bendings ( i very often bend up to 6 steps ) or with a light-to-kinda hard-but-not-crazy use of the tremolo it works perfectly ...
with the BladeRunner you can't do a "Steve Vai" , but you can perfectly do a "Jeff Beck" if you know what i mean ...


As mbenigni says , behind the saddle , the design is pretty much the same as a regular strat tremolo , so yeah , you are gonna have friction in the angle between the tremolo block and the saddle .

Steve Ray Vaughan use to solve that with plastic tubes behind the saddles ... we could investigate that to solve that problem , i didn't found much info about it on the web .

As for the ball end problem , in my case the Fender Bullets are not an option , i play live 2 hours at day , plus 3 to 5 hours of practice home , so Elixir strings are a must for me ... bummer !





whippinpost91850

Aliensporebomb, I for one would like to see a video where you go nuts.  ME TOO ;D