VG-99 - Guitar to MIDI - Expanding my horizons.

Started by rcknrllmn, April 29, 2009, 07:22:48 AM

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arkieboy

#50
I think I understand what's going on here ...


The best pitch bend range for a guitar synth is just larger than the length of the fretboard so you can hammer on on any string and get a continuation of the note without a note on retrigger. So 24 is the best, with 12 a decent compromise because some synths - some soft synths especially - don't do 24 semitones of bend. 


However, big pitch end ranges are a right PITA when working with samples.  I posted a quite detailed answer to this on the Axonforum some time ago - basically it's the problem often called 'munchkinisation' after the effect used for the munchkins for the film version of 'The Wizard of Oz' - for the younger readers, think 'Alvin and the chipmunks'.   Acoustic instruments and voices have fixed resonance frequencies and eq curves that do not change when you change the pitch of the note played or sung - called formants.   However, a sampler can only play back a sample faster or slower to transpose its pitch, and does not normally extract the formant before processing.  So with wide ranges of transposition the formant is also transposed and thus sample will change in character, which is useless if you want a faithful emulation of a sax, a violin, or a human voice.


By setting a PBR of 2 you force the guitar synth to retrigger wide intervals and thus never transpose a sample over an unnatural range so - counter intuitively - the emulation sounds more realistic.


One solution is to move away from samples and into modelling.  The Yamaha modelling synth mentioned above might be one solution depending how it interprets pitch bend, you could also look at plugins like sculpture in Logic.  Alternatively some sample libraries - particularly older, smaller ones - might be less prone to the problem as they will have been chosen for samples that span a wider range to save memory.  The samples in my old U110 worked quite well over wide transpositions because - I think - roland removed some formant information to save on RAM.  Might be worth looking at a cheap U220 (better AD converters) but AFAIR it has a bend range of 12


Or you could roll up your sleeves, dig out Gordon Reid's 'synth secrets' on sound on sound, pick a really good synth plugin and program a sound from scratch.  Sounding like a sax is only the start, you need to play like a sax player to be really convincing and TBT that's actually the most important bit.  Listen to what Wendy Carlos or Joe Zawinul can coax out of the most primitive hardware by careful attention to the performance


http://www.soundonsound.com/search?url=%2Fsearch&Keyword=%22synth+secrets%22&Words=All&Summary=Yes


Steve


Main rig: Barden Hexacaster and Brian Moore i2.13 controllers
Boss SY1000/Boss GKC-AD/Boss GM-800/Laney LFR112

Other relevant gear: Line 6 Helix LT, Roland GR-33, Axon AX100 MkII
Oberheim Matrix 6R, Supernova IIR, EMu E5000, Apple Mainstage, Apple Logic, MOTU M4

arkieboy

Another possibility is Roland's variphrase samplers, which could extract formants

http://www.vintagesynth.com/roland/vp9000.php
Main rig: Barden Hexacaster and Brian Moore i2.13 controllers
Boss SY1000/Boss GKC-AD/Boss GM-800/Laney LFR112

Other relevant gear: Line 6 Helix LT, Roland GR-33, Axon AX100 MkII
Oberheim Matrix 6R, Supernova IIR, EMu E5000, Apple Mainstage, Apple Logic, MOTU M4

stringvalley

#52
Hi arkieboy!
I think you understan what I meant, yes maybe a external modeling synth would be the best, but I still need to run it true midi, so GR-33 is bether than VG-99 and GR-55 but not as good as the Ztar in midi. http://www.starrlabs.com/  The best would be if Roland made a MONSTER MODELING SYNTH build for GK. Any one remember Minimax from creamware? Its a modeling copy of the mini moog.
Something like this build in to VG would be cool.
the build in modeling synth sounds in VG-99 plays perfect,like a dream, I just wish VG-99 and GR-55 had more synth modeling.the modeling of gr-300 is not so good,way cant they make something identical like Creamware did with Minimax a decade ago? and a upgrade for the midi software to become as good as the GR-33 Would be nice. Roland have competition now, even the toy yourock guitar is bether in midi than Roland now. http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/yourockguitar/yrg-pro-professional-grade-midi-guitar .
Come on Roland!!! make a super guitar synth that beat everything!!  :)