vg-99 or gr-55?

Started by tonyknight, July 07, 2011, 09:46:19 AM

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tonyknight

Hi, I'm new here and worse, the last synths I really played were ARPs and early Moogs. OK, not quite totally true, but... I'm thinking (again) of buying a guitar synth, and although I've searched a lot on the choice between these two units, I'm still baffled. Basically, I enjoy composing and recording layers of music combining new-agey science-fiction type sounds with many others including acoustic guitar and Tool-style metal. I'm an accomplished guitarist and will either use a GK-3 on a Tele or my ES-335. In the past I've struggled with hardware synths to create background pads, but my capabilities are far superior on the guitar, hence the interest.

I'd appreciate any thoughts you might be able to offer between these two roland units...
Peace,
Tony

Brent Flash

Welcome to the group tonyknight!  :)
You really do not want to compare the VG with the GR. Apples and oranges.

Elantric

#2
If you are primarily recording at home, and want the largest sonic palette of traditional non guitar instruments, and do not mind making overdubs or recording at half speed due to occasional glitches - get the GR-55


If you are a perfectionist and want zero tracking problems, and want to perform live ( with no glitches) - get the VG-99.


But there really is no comparison between the two - they serve different markets and price points.
I would also say most former VG-99 users who have migrated to a GR-55 and are "happy"  - probably never fully explored all they had in the VG-99.

Brent Flash

Quote from: tonyknight on July 07, 2011, 09:46:19 AM
I'd appreciate any thoughts you might be able to offer between these two roland units...
Here is my opinion without writing a book.

The VG-99 has practically no limitations as to the number of effects, EQ, and alternate tunings. It does not play an internal synth, it creates its sounds from the guitar string only so has no tracking issues other than some glitching when alternate tuning extreme shifts.

The GR plays interal synths (2) and a dumbed down VG section that has many limitations with alternate tuning and effects.

Hope this helps.

germanicus

#4
Quote from: tonyknight on July 07, 2011, 09:46:19 AM
Hi, I'm new here and worse, the last synths I really played were ARPs and early Moogs. OK, not quite totally true, but... I'm thinking (again) of buying a guitar synth, and although I've searched a lot on the choice between these two units, I'm still baffled. Basically, I enjoy composing and recording layers of music combining new-agey science-fiction type sounds with many others including acoustic guitar and Tool-style metal. I'm an accomplished guitarist and will either use a GK-3 on a Tele or my ES-335. In the past I've struggled with hardware synths to create background pads, but my capabilities are far superior on the guitar, hence the interest.

I'd appreciate any thoughts you might be able to offer between these two roland units...
Peace,
Tony

Both VG99 and GR55 perform both COSM modelling and Midi Conversion functions, its just they differ in implementation and performance of those respective functions.

The vg99 is a much deeper unit for tweaking guitar tones with greater signal chain flexibility and slightly more robust alternate tuning capabilities (capacity to have 12 string emulations simultaneously in altered tunings).

The gr55 has many more synth sounds via its internal synth engines. As in several hundreds more.

The vg99's signal routing and effects options are more flexible, and you get two COSM modelling chains instead of just 1 in the gr55.

The gr55's MIDI tracking is superior to that in the VG99. If you are wanting to record the converted midi output into a DAW or send it to another synth/sampler, this is a relevant concern.

Please note that the COSM modelling doesnt really 'track', so when you use that feature in either the vg99 or the gr55, its practically instantaneous responsiveness.

I think if you are looking to jump in with a device and get down to making music and recording, the gr55 permits a much much wider palette of available sounds which can all be accessed easily and quickly. WIth the vg99, I spent literally months tweaking and creating many sounds/patches for the vg99, and still use several of them for recording, but it just cant do many of the sounds I wanted by itself. Its a fantastically deep unit, but its also limited in terms of end results depending on your needs. A vg99 cant do a fender rhodes, piano, or french horns, bassons, saxes, strings or choirs at anywhere near the degree of detail that a sampler/synth can accomplish.

The synth type tones in the vg99 are much more limited in scope and variation. Several users have gotten cool interesting sounds out of the vg99, but it takes a fair amount of tweaking, and imo is not nearly as easy as just calling up a pre-made synth patch in a sound module. The gr55 DOES also have the capability to do many of the vg99's HRM synth sounds with its single COSM modelling chain, but its not really as flexibile and the vg99's ability to mix two COSM sounds is very strong.

You can use the vg99 to drive external MIDI sound modules and therefore open up a wider range of possibilities, but you can also do this with the 55 if you are not happy with its built in sound modules.

Its a question of what do you need it to do and how much time you want to spend doing it. If you want tons of decent keyboard synth sounds already ready to play, the gr55 offers that. Pianos, organs, synth pads, lead tones, orchestral instruments, etc.

If you enjoy heavily tweaking and creating COSM modelled sounds with tons of effects and signal processing options, the vg99 is your solution.

   
My albums done with modeling/guitar synth at http://music.steamtheory.com

JTV69/59P/Godin LGXT/Multiac ACS/Variax 700 AC
Helix/FTP/GP10/VG99/SY1000
Traynor k4

tonyknight

Wow, thanks for the input guys. Very helpful, as I totally understand the apples and oranges bit, but coming new into guitar synthesis I am not yet willing to shell out for both units  :) Maybe later.

If I understand you correctly, the better (?) choice to replace my aging Ensoniq SQ1 on stage (where I might for example play a thick pad/chord and let it go while I play some guitar over the top of it) might be the GR-55 due to its apparently wider synth palette. Taking note of the comment about live use of the VG-99, in this scenario I could think of having one guitar on a stand, linked to the GR-55, hold a chord and let it go, then use a second guitar to add a real guitar overlay. Think for example of a simplified solo version of Pink Floyd's 'Wish you were here', using the guitar synth to provide the background pad. It might make for an interesting stage show to use the two guitars at the same time :-)

A second scenario I could imagine is playing (again solo) a version of the Titanic theme - Irish flute introduction (if the synth sound is good enough) and then changing to a guitaresque sound for the melody using finger style techniques. Similarly, perhaps, an Andean pan-pipes composition alternating with guitar or other sounds.

But acknowledging my ignorance, please let me know if I'm misunderstanding anything :-)

For pure multi-track composition it seems that either unit would work, although again, the GR-55 might be more flexible (?) in its colour palette?

I guess the main reason for my questioning is that the GR is about half the price of the VG and that always makes me wonder. Also, I haven't yet found a good GR for sale used, but here in France where I live, I have found an excellent VG (bought new this year) for about $700 minus the GK-3... a price I can certainly live with!

Thanks again,
Tony

acousticglue

I used to have other items but now just a VG99 and Amplitube 3 free. The 99 is not bad in tracking and can power software synths too. I didn't jump on the GR55 bandwagon as I can do those things with 99. I was considering a 2nd box for other guitars at home but Amplitube solved that for me.

aliensporebomb

#7
Quote from: tonyknight on July 08, 2011, 04:14:31 AM
(edit...)
If I understand you correctly, the better (?) choice to replace my aging Ensoniq SQ1 on stage (where I might for example play a thick pad/chord and let it go while I play some guitar over the top of it) might be the GR-55 due to its apparently wider synth palette. Taking note of the comment about live use of the VG-99, in this scenario I could think of having one guitar on a stand, linked to the GR-55, hold a chord and let it go, then use a second guitar to add a real guitar overlay. Think for example of a simplified solo version of Pink Floyd's 'Wish you were here', using the guitar synth to provide the background pad. It might make for an interesting stage show to use the two guitars at the same time :-)

You can do that with a single guitar and a VG-99 like so:


No need for a second guitar on a stand.  I'll have a better example of this years event (that was from 2010) tonight (it's uploading now).  I've got newer and lusher sounds from the 99 too.

My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Zummooz

Well this has been very, very well covered by others already.
My 0.02c worth...

I have both the VG-99 & GR-55 ... like others !
Can use both at once with the US-20.
Just using in a home studio setup (no live gigs) into Logic 9 on iMac. With GK-3 & 2 internal guitars.

My simple solution (as why I bought the GR-55) is that I use the VG for modelling amps etc. The VG is deep !!
Use the GR-55 for Guitar-to-Midi stuff. Of cause, can use the VG for this too thou.

When the GR-55 came out, lots were selling off their VG's thinking it would replace it ...... Wrong move people  ::)

I remember reading Elantric & Vanceg's experience at NAMM with the GR-55 & that this would be a different unit to the VG .. Correct !!

Hey ... I like apples & oranges   ;D   But yeah ...  it's like a Ferrari to a BMW. .
Hence the price difference between the GR-55 & VG-99.
May-be the GR-55 was made at a cheaper cost, to get more people into this field.... I believe so.

I also have a Access Virus Ti Desktop Synth with about 7500 patches (just a beast of a synth) which I do guitar-to-midi stuff with.
But have & always will have the notion, that some sounds (depends on the sound) are simply best just played by the synth .... Just reality !!

Nice work (as usual) aliensporebomb  ;D
The  Fact  Is......"We  are  all  tactile  creatures  &  physical  interaction  has  always  been  a  big  part  of  making  music"

tonyknight

This all continues to help - sort of! After listening to Aliensporebomb's composition/performance, it is less clear to me whether for me, at least, which should be the numero-1 purchase should be :-)

Again, never having used guitar synths, please excuse my ignorance, but I imagine that this performance was using elements of looping, freezing, and some sort of separation in order to play the guitar melodies over the background - am I right?

Only a few days left to decide whether or not to get the VG-99 on French ebay - but it seems like it might be a good investment at the price.

Cheers,
Tony

tonyknight

For reference, this is an example of a piece I composed and recorded using hardware synth and guitar - "Storm's End"

http://www.box.net/files#/files/0/f/60811430/1/f_815222936

aliensporebomb

Tony - I tried to grab that and had no luck - it said either the file was missing or I didn't have the appropriate permissions.

As far as this year goes, here is the segment from this years show on 7/2:


More bits with rock instrumentation forthcoming.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

aliensporebomb

Quote from: tonyknight on July 10, 2011, 06:33:14 AM
This all continues to help - sort of! After listening to Aliensporebomb's composition/performance, it is less clear to me whether for me, at least, which should be the numero-1 purchase should be :-)

Again, never having used guitar synths, please excuse my ignorance, but I imagine that this performance was using elements of looping, freezing, and some sort of separation in order to play the guitar melodies over the background - am I right?

Only a few days left to decide whether or not to get the VG-99 on French ebay - but it seems like it might be a good investment at the price.

Cheers,
Tony

Tony - the intro there I used kope's amazing  "Crazy Diamond-k" patch that you can get here from the vguitarforums patch library (link is https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=1386.msg7520#msg7520) where you finger a chord and hold it, press one of the pedals down on the FC-300 and it sustains and then you can play over it.  Then you can back off on the pedal and play another chord and do the same and so it's like you've got a little backing keyboardist.  It does this feature by way of the freeze feature in the VG-99.  Some of the other bits I did were done by way of a looper - play an ambient bed segment into the looper, close the loop then play over it. 
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

tonyknight

Thanks aliensporebomb - your videos are very revealing in at least some of the capabilities of the VG-99 - and also very enjoyable to listen to!

So it seems that in my imagined scenario, I would need to add the FC-300. The rest of what you described makes perfect sense to me, so there seems to be no real problem there.

One last question to you all before I leave you to more important things and get to making my decision :-) If I throw in the desire for lead sounds such as those created by the likes of Jean-Michel Jarre, Keith Emerson, or Rick Wakeman - are these attainable with the VG-99 or perhaps with the GR-55?

Many thanks again - and here's my link but this time I remembered that Box requires that one actually 'shares' the files!
http://www.box.net/shared/5rzyj2b6pxnngocmakjo

Hope it works,
cheers,
Tony

germanicus

#14
Tony,

IMO with the Gr55 the answer is definitely yes, you can get those sounds quite readily and easily. With the vg99, its more of a question of is it close enough for you. The vg99 can get similar type sounds, but no where near the degree of versatility when compared against a PCM synth engine such as is included in the 55. In order to get similar functionality, you would have to add an external midi sound device with the vg99. Its a function of how many fundamental building blocks you have available for sound construction. Again folks have accomplished a great deal by tweaking the 11 COSM synth tones included in the vg99, and some of the better patches do a good job of approximating recognizable sounds.

To break it down in more detail:

The vg99 internally has 11 COSM synth models : Gr-300, Bowed, Dual, Filter Bass, Pipe, Solo, PWM, Crystal, Organ, Brass, and Wave.
These form the basis of all the synth esque sounds achievable with the vg99.

Each of these COSM Synth model can be assigned to one of the vg99's two COSM modelling chains. So you can combine two of the above COSM synths together, use one with a guitar model, or two of the same type.

These have different settings and tweaks depending on the Synth model.

The Gr55 has 6 COSM synth models : Analog GR-300, Wave Synth, Filter Bass, Crystal, Organ, and Brass.
One of these can be assigned to the single COSM guitar chain (modelling chain) included in the GR55.

These, like in the vg99, also have different settings and tweaks depending on the model.


So in terms of a comparison of COSM synths between the two units, the vg99 has 5 more types available, and you can have two of them running simultaneously if you please. The vg99 also has the capacity within each chain to run more effects. By combining them you can approximate more complex sounds such as what you would hear out of a modern synth with varying degrees of success.

On the other side of the equation however, is the fact that the GR55 has, in addition to its COSM synth chain, two completely independent PCM synthesizers, which the vg99 has none of. These PCM synths are fully tweakable modern synth modules that each contain 910 synth tones. Many of these tones are slight variations of one another (ie theres are 16 different acoustic pianos, 31 different electric organs, 122 different synth lead tones, etc), and they are likely each based off of a much smaller number of core samples, but its a massive set of sounds, that dwarfs what is available from the vg99's 11 COSM synths.

These 910 patches, have a slew of available synth tweaks such as:
Filter Cutoff and Resonance controls,
Velocity sensitivity, Pitch Envelope controls
TVF Env Depth, Attack, Decay, Sustain, Release, Atk Velocity, settings.
TVA attack, decay, systain, release, Atk Velocity, Atk Nuance, and level nuance settings.
EACH synth has two seperate LFO's each with controls for Pitch Depth, TVF depth, TVA depth and Pan Depth.

Ie, you can do a tremendous amount of tweaking for each.

The gr55 has literally dozens of Keith Emerson esque b3 style organ patches, dozens of rick wakeman style Moog lead tones, and more.

To sum it up:

With the vg99 you get two COSM modelling chains, and you can also add your regular magnetic guitar pickup signal to either chain if you wish. You can also connect the vg99 to an external MIDI sound module for additional sounds. The vg99 has great effects routing and options and extremely advanced alternate tuning capabilities, as well as a Poly FX section which can be applied to one of its COSM chains.

With the gr55 you get 2 PCM synths going at once, plus a single COSM modelling chain, plus the capacity to bring in your regular magnetic guitar pickup signal. You can route any of these 4 sources through 3 different signal chain blocks (Bypass, AMP/MOD, or MFX) which can also in turn be used to variably mix different Global effects (Delay, Chorus, Reverb) levels. Not as powerful as the vg99 effects wise, but I found once I got a handle on mixing in different send levels from the Global effects, I was easily able to achieve significant effect variation on different sound sources within the same patch. The 55 can do alternate tunings, but not as versatile as the vg99. The gr55 has better midi conversion performance compared to the vg99. It also has a rudimentary built in looper, and USB stick audio file playback functionality. The looper is extremely limited, but better than nothing.

Both are extremely powerful units. I recommend you try playing both of them before you buy one and spending time to see if they meet your needs!

Or just flip a coin?
My albums done with modeling/guitar synth at http://music.steamtheory.com

JTV69/59P/Godin LGXT/Multiac ACS/Variax 700 AC
Helix/FTP/GP10/VG99/SY1000
Traynor k4

tonyknight

Thanks Germanicus,

Your post was extremely succinct, to the point, and helpful. Between what you and Aliensporebomb are saying I'm beginning to understand the differences between these two units and it seems as though ultimately, they make a great ensemble meaning both are useful and perhaps necessary. I'm going to try to find somewhere local where I can demo these units but in my previous experiences in France (when looking for a good jazz box and amp for example), that's a real challenge and often requires a 700 mile round-trip drive - or a flight to the UK!

To your point regarding the external midi device, are you saying that I could connect to a keyboard synth and use my guitar to drive the sound capabilities that way? Is the same possible with the GR-55?

Cheers,
Tony

In a nutshell, it seems to me that spending time with either unit will be very rewarding...


paults

If you want to be able to use better sounds than your old ensoniq, the VG99 doesn't have them inside.  It can do analogish synthy sounds, but it doesn't contain sample-based instrument sounds, like the 55. With the 55, you can create a patch that can be used to play a very good sounding non-guitar chord, press the Control pedal to hold it, and then play your "real" guitar pickups over the sustaining chord, or use a Modeled guitar sound, or you could even play (for example) a saxophone or violin sound, using the second synth in the 55. 

With some planning, each GR-55 patch could have:
1) Real guitar
2) COSM guitar (through the same amp model as the real guitar, or one of them could use an MFX amp model, instead)
3) Synth sound 1
4) Synth sound 2

Your guitar knob, the GK knob, the GR-55 pedal, the GR-55 pedal with the Foot switch pressed, the Control foot switch, S1 and S2 on the pickup can all be used to control what is being heard in the patch, and how many of the four can be heard at once. 

Deeper programming would let you change COSM guitar models/pickups, or synth sounds, etc. Still all in the same patch.

--

The 99 can do "synth" lead sounds, the 55 can do more realistic sounds.  They both can be used with an external synth, but their internal sounds are much more accurate.   

tonyknight

Thanks Paults,

This is the sort of practical insight which is very beneficial for me at the moment :-)
Cheers,
Tony

tonyknight

Ok, thanks to all of you who've helped a lot on this question - this forum is only the second one I've found where the members seem to be really interested in building a true community spirit (the other is the Jazz Guitar Forum). I finally 'flipped the coin' as Germanicus suggested! Actually, I applied a bit of reason and figured that I can get an almost new VG-99 with guarantee for the same price as a new GT-55. Therefore, if I really get into this and wish to add a GR-55 later, I might equally find a similar value. To this I added the fact that I can apparently drive my Ensoniq with the VG-99 as well as any number of software synths and just decided to go with it. Therefore, I'm hoping for delivery next week! Now I've got to find a GK-3 pretty quickly!

Thanks again, and I hope to be able to reciprocate sometime soon,
Peace,
Tony

germanicus

Good luck with your VG99!


Dont get overwhelmed with the vg99. Its an extremely deep unit, as roland really threw in the proverbial kitchen sink in terms of features. One of the best ways to learn the unit is to start with a completely blank patch, and play with one or two settings at a time to really get a hang on what they all do.

I recommend the FC300 footcontroller as well for live use.

Have fun!
My albums done with modeling/guitar synth at http://music.steamtheory.com

JTV69/59P/Godin LGXT/Multiac ACS/Variax 700 AC
Helix/FTP/GP10/VG99/SY1000
Traynor k4

mooncaine

I have a VG-99 and FC300, and love 'em. The VG-99 is deep, with lots of possibilities. I can't compare it to a GR-55 because I don't have that GR. I can just say that I have heard some very awe-inspiring sounds made with the VG, and I've made a few good synth-like patches myself.

I have played other GRs, and I have a GR-33 in my basement. Although I can use MIDI to control some very amazing, lush synths on my Mac, I prefer the feel and response of the VG-99's synth-like sounds much more. For me, it's not important to have a real synth that can sound like a piano, a sax, or kalimba, but it's very important that the notes come out on time, every time, even with my ham-fisted plank-spanking style of string bashing. You can do a lot with the synth-ish sounds, and even the guitar sims, to make a VG sound like a synth. The polyphonic Slow Gear added to its fantastic alternate tunings and a fully adjustable 12-string tuning section give lots of options for thick tones, several octaves, dialing in a little shimmer, or fat detuned sounds.

I almost bought a GR-55 recently, and I still might, but I certainly don't regret the VG-99. I'm very glad to have it.

You don't *need* an FC300, but it's nice. You can use another MIDI footpedal controller (the SoftStep looks interesting!).

tonyknight

Eh, well it's back to square one - I didn't realise that ebay allows 'hidden' bidders and even though I was the the only bidder (I bid with a higher contingency) one of these 'hidden' guys added 5 euros at the last second... so I lost the bid  >:( Aaahhh... so now it's either buy a GT-55 for the same budget or wait for another VG... at least I might have an opportunity to actually try the two units though :-)

Nick M

Can you run both the vg99 and the GR55 from the same GK3 pickup and just switch or layer between the two units?
Or would you need two GK pickups to be mounted on the same guitar (one for each)?

Elantric

Yes,
One guitar can feed two 13 pin processors is a function of the Roland US-20 A/B selector box
http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.php?ProductId=61



The Roland US-20 price does include two 3 meter 13pin cables.

Nick M

Quote from: Elantric on November 12, 2011, 01:36:01 PM
Yes,
One guitar can feed two 13 pin processors



Interesting.  Thanks