GR-55 What is PCM TVA & TVF?

Started by DeRigueur, March 03, 2011, 02:04:53 PM

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DeRigueur

Greetings,
I'm new to synths and had a question about why some synth sounds sustain almost indefinitely while others decay after a second or two.  For example 609 has little sustain, but 610 will sustain for 10-15 seconds and I don't know of any way to control it.  Is there parameter that controls this or is it just a part of sound?  It acts like playing a piano while holding the sustain pedal down.  After a few notes, it all sounds like mush.  How would one use this type of sound? What am I missing?

Thanks.
Fender GC-1 -- Boss SY-1000 -- Alto TS112A

gumtown

#1
Each PCM synth tone will have it's own built-in character, but each tone/per/patch is fully editable.
I am a little rusty on my synth envelope control knowledge, but you have this many controls for each PCM synth tone..



I would (as a guess) tweak the TVA or Pitch Envelope Decay Time and Sustain controls...

Read
GR-55 FloorBoard Editor Help
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=86


VGuitarForums Glossary of Terms
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=13765.msg100749#msg100749

Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

DeRigueur

OK, looks like the TVA Release Time can be adjusted to shorten or lengthen the sustain.
Fender GC-1 -- Boss SY-1000 -- Alto TS112A

ddlooping

Quote from: DeRigueur on March 03, 2011, 02:58:16 PM
OK, looks like the TVA Release Time can be adjusted to shorten or lengthen the sustain.

A the risk of sounding pedantic, release time and sustain are two different things. :)

A picture is worth a thousand words... ;)

Diaz Guitars (work in progress)

Gastric

And you can effectively control the sound with both the ADSR for the TVF and the TVA.  The TVF is controlling those parameters for the filter, but depending on what synth voice you've chosen it's possible to effectively sweep the filter to the point where it's effectively eliminated the synth sound. Also play with the FILTER TYPE.  TVA controls the actual volume of the tone.

The TVF and TVA is where all the serious shaping happens. You'll find that with some practice you can make the default TONE voice for one synth preset (something with a long sustain) sound like the default TONE voice for another (short, percussive one) by manipulating TVF and TVA parameters. For example, morph a Clav into a short, percussive bass sound by rolling down the filter cutoff and apply shorter parameters for the decay/sustain/release portions of TVF and TVA.

DeRigueur

Fender GC-1 -- Boss SY-1000 -- Alto TS112A

ddlooping

You're welcome. :)

P.S:
ADSR = Attack - Decay - Sustain - Release
TVF = Time Varying (?) Filter
TVA = Time Varying (?) Amplitude
Diaz Guitars (work in progress)

Elantric

#7
To learn more about the controls of a synthesizer, sometimes its good to dive into an owners manual for an older 1st generation model, where the manufacturer takes more time to explain all the terms:

this is recommended reading: 1977 Roland GR-500 Guitar Synthesizer.
http://media.rolandus.com/manuals/GR-500_OM.pdf


and read

==
Looks like the Roland SD-90 Studio Canvas Owners Manual is a Must Read for GR-55 Owners interested in mastering the PCM Synth Engine.
http://lib.roland.co.jp/support/en/manuals/res/1811325/SD-90_e3.pdf


see this post and download the Analog Synthesis Primer by Martin Russ
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6418.msg44034#msg44034

and

Gordon Reid's SOS Synth Secrets series
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/allsynthsecrets.htm

Gumtown's GR-55 Editor has a mode to reveal the sysex commands which control bulk of GR-55 parameters






Spider

Quote from: ddlooping on March 03, 2011, 06:13:42 PM
You're welcome. :)

P.S:
ADSR = Attack - Decay - Sustain - Release
TVF = Time Varying (?) Filter
TVA = Time Varying (?) Amplitude

V=Variant: Time Variant Filter "alters the brightness, thickness and other aspects of an audio signal over a period of time using filters, often based on an envelope"

A= Amplifier: Time Variant Amplifier "alters the volume of an audio signal over a period of time, often based on an envelope. "

ddlooping

Thanks for the correction, Spider. :)
Diaz Guitars (work in progress)

shawnb

#10
Is there a good description of the GR55's TVA & TVF somewhere?  The manual's descriptions are, as usual, circular...

I believe the TVA is your normal old ADSR envelope.    I suspect TVF brings ADSR to your filter settings (because most descriptions of TVF for other synths mention frequencies for the TVF ADSR to work on), to allow you to vary your filter over time.

Is this correct?   Is there a good source of info on this?

Experimentation is fun, but informed experimentation will get us all there faster... 

Thx,   Shawn
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

gumtown

#11
Here is a link to the answer to the same question
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3343.msg22184#msg22184




Quote from:  shawnb on March 16, 2011, 02:12:48 PM
Is there a good description of the GR55's TVA & TVF somewhere?  The manual's descriptions are, as usual, circular...

I believe the TVA is your normal old ADSR envelope.    I suspect TVF brings ADSR to your filter settings (because most descriptions of TVF for other synths mention frequencies for the TVF ADSR to work on), to allow you to vary your filter over time.

Is this correct?   Is there a good source of info on this?

Experimentation is fun, but informed experimentation will get us all there faster... 

Thx,   Shawn




GR-55 FAQ: TOP THINGS TO KNOW
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4006.0

If you are clueless about all these GR-55 PCM Synth parameters and settings and how they inter-operate

Roland Glossary of Terms
http://www.rolandus.com/support/glossary_of_terms/

Looks like the Roland SD-90 Studio Canvas Owners Manual is a Must Read for GR-55 Owners interested in mastering the PCM Synth Engine.
http://lib.roland.co.jp/support/en/manuals/res/1811325/SD-90_e3.pdf


see this post and download the Analog Synthesis Primer by Martin Russ
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6418.msg44034#msg44034

and

Gordon Reid's SOS Synth Secrets series
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/allsynthsecrets.htm
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

shawnb

I think the operative quote is:
QuoteThe TVF is controlling those parameters for the filter, but depending on what synth voice you've chosen it's possible to effectively sweep the filter to the point where it's effectively eliminated the synth sound. Also play with the FILTER TYPE.  TVA controls the actual volume of the tone.

This confirms my beliefs noted above.   TVA=old fashioned ADSR, & TVF operates on your filter settings over time using ADSR shaping.   

Thanks!

Shawn
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Elantric

#13
If you are clueless about all these GR-55 PCM Synth parameters and settings and how they inter-operate
for more details on the GR-55  PCM's

* TVF ( Time Variant Filter )

* TVA ( Time Variant Amplifier )



Roland Glossary of Terms
http://www.rolandus.com/support/glossary_of_terms/

Looks like the Roland SD-90 Studio Canvas Owners Manual is a Must Read for GR-55 Owners interested in mastering the PCM Synth Engine.
http://lib.roland.co.jp/support/en/manuals/res/1811325/SD-90_e3.pdf


see this post and download the Analog Synthesis Primer by Martin Russ
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6418.msg44034#msg44034

and

Gordon Reid's SOS Synth Secrets series
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/allsynthsecrets.htm

Gumtown's GR-55 Editor has a mode to reveal the sysex commands which control bulk of GR-55 parameters






Bill Ruppert

#14
Why in the world was all this left out of the GR-55 Manual?
Every PCM-synth parameter and what they do.
I am very lucky I know.
Did they assume that all guitar players would just grab for the gain or fuzz knob and not care?????
Maybe....

Elantric

#15
Read this thread in its entirety for all the answers
(hint: The answer to "What do all these PCM synth parameters (TVA,TVF) do? is at the last post in this thread)
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3343.0

and its just the first of many

"Why in the world was xxxx left out of the GR-55 manual??"

The GR-55 was definitely rushed to market - with any luck they will provide us a full MIDI spec before 2013 - but i'm not holding my breath.



Bill Ruppert

#16
Excellent!
That is the stuff I curl up by the fire on a cold midwest night and read!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thank you and my printer thanks you and Staples thanks you for the ink and paper I use printing it
Cool.
I am on it.
Fun.

gandolf

Hi there,

So also being new to this, and have a similar question to this thread.

I'm trying to achieve 2 things, but not sure which variables affect these things, per patch:

first, i want to be able trigger a PCM sound, dependant on how hard i play.

the other is to have that sound "Hold", even if i let go of that note on the string...but i don't want anything else I'm playing after it to sustain...is that a decay setting?

in my mind i imagine being able to have, say,  a string sound or something, that only triggers on the "1" beat of the bar, then holds for that bar, while i go off and play whatever on the bass for beats "&2&3&4&"

Any help appreciated!!

Cheers!

Mrchevy

#18
Quote from: gandolf on October 03, 2012, 05:15:02 PM

the other is to have that sound "Hold", even if i let go of that note on the string...but i don't want anything else I'm playing after it to sustain...is that a decay setting?

in my mind i imagine being able to have, say,  a string sound or something, that only triggers on the "1" beat of the bar, then holds for that bar, while i go off and play whatever on the bass for beats "&2&3&4&"

Any help appreciated!!

Cheers!
Not sure on the first question but the second question would likely be done by using the CTL pedal set to HOLD and MOMENTARY instead of TOGGLE. That setting will allow you to hold the strings while your foot is on the CTL pedal and release your foot when you want to hit the 1 note or chord and then repeat the process. You can assign the hold  to 1 or both PCM's. You may have to experiment with the HOLD TYPE ( off hand I think there is 4) to get the effect your looking for. If your using the editor, look thru it and you'll find all these settings. I'm not sure off hand exactly where the parameters are to guide you there but it shouldn't be hard to find. Welcome aboard by the way. 
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GT100
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And, a lot of stuff I DON'T need

gandolf

That's a great workaround!!...p76 of the manual details the 4 hold types, and the toggle settings for the CTL switch, just as you are describing!!  Thanks!

hading

Quote from: gandolf on October 03, 2012, 05:15:02 PM


in my mind i imagine being able to have, say,  a string sound or something, that only triggers on the "1" beat of the bar, then holds for that bar, while i go off and play whatever on the bass for beats "&2&3&4&"


I just did something like that recently. I use the CTL to do a momentary hold and the appropriate HOLD type to only sustain what is playing when it is engaged (I think was 3, or maybe 2). So I can play a chord, press and hold the pedal, and then play over it.

The initial sound contains both PCM and guitar sound - as a further touch I have the internal pedal set up to cut off and then quickly raise back the guitar volume when the CTL pedal is pushed and also to boost the guitar level (again on a momentary basis).

gandolf

Great - That sounds like what I'm trying to do!!.... except i wanted the PCM to cut out (except for the part being "hold").

But what do you mean by the "internal Pedal"?  what is that?

Elantric

#22
Quote"internal Pedal"?  what is that?


Must read the owners Manual

In the Roland World - "internal Pedal" can be a very capable LFO source, or a Ramp up  / Down Filter or "VCA" type amplifier - it makes a patch morph and evolve into a new sound several seconds after you select the patch
But compared to Older Roland products, more recent products like GR-55 have a dumbed down Internal Pedal - with no external trigger source.

I know the Roland "Internal Pedal" effect has been around since 1995 and the Boss GT-5

Here's a deeper discussion of the VG-99's "Wave Pedal and Internal Pedal"
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=5873.msg40209#msg40209


gandolf

OK Thanks!  Sorry if i seem to ask so many silly questions...thanks for everyone's patience...

So internal SW is like a command to perfrom a "virtual" event... and you can specify what pedal triggers that event.

but i can see that you can specify functions for the CTL,EXP, etc,etc pedals & Switches in the "Master>pedal/GK CTL" menu, AND you can also specify functions for these  pedals in the "Master>Assign" menu....

I've read from PG54-62 about 7 times....but i don't understand the logic: would these not be mutually exclusive in some cases?

For example, if you set the CTL peddle to be a "hold" peddle, in the "pedal/GK CTL" menu, ...but you can also "assign" other functions for the same pedal on the same patch? at some point, would there not be conflict of some sort?

Spider

Quote from: gandolf on October 10, 2012, 09:19:12 PM
OK Thanks!  Sorry if i seem to ask so many silly questions...thanks for everyone's patience...

So internal SW is like a command to perfrom a "virtual" event... and you can specify what pedal triggers that event.

but i can see that you can specify functions for the CTL,EXP, etc,etc pedals & Switches in the "Master>pedal/GK CTL" menu, AND you can also specify functions for these  pedals in the "Master>Assign" menu....

I've read from PG54-62 about 7 times....but i don't understand the logic: would these not be mutually exclusive in some cases?

For example, if you set the CTL peddle to be a "hold" peddle, in the "pedal/GK CTL" menu, ...but you can also "assign" other functions for the same pedal on the same patch? at some point, would there not be conflict of some sort?

Sure. For that reason people have problem with new downloaded patches: conflict between your master settings and others settings. Any way if you know what you want it isn.t a problem. For example: when CTL works as HOLD you can assign it for other things like changing PCM tone or PU or modelled guitar. So press CTL-hold the sound-and play over it with different PCM tone or mute PCM and use only guitar etc. Assignments are very very creative function in all Roland/Boss devices.