Moog E1M: Polysustainer plus 13 pin GK- Advise needed

Started by vanceg, April 02, 2008, 04:24:30 PM

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Elantric

#25
Ask VanceG about the Moog E-1

One thing I know  -  due to the strong Magnetic flux fields that exist on the Moog E-1, any GK-3 Mag Hex PU WILL NOT WORK.
(Likewise, the "stock Mag PU's on the E-1 need to be left intact, as aftermarket replacement PU's have difficulty on the E1
 

You need the Moog "E-1M" model with built in Ghost piezo 13 pin to drive the VG-99 / GR-55 / GP-10

More info here:

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=2231.0

thebrushwithin

Yes, I have owned a Moog EM-1, since August of 2011. It has been my main axe for hundreds of gigs. You can get very spoiled with poly sustain, as I have. As Elantric pointed out, no other mag hex pickup can be used, as when the sustainer is engaged, the magnetic field generated is way too much for something like an FTP, for example. You pretty much need to use a VG for proper pickup emulation, because the naked sound of these pickups, without the sustain engaged, isn't very good. My present setup is the Moog into my VG88, amps disabled, into a Kemper, and it is a great combo! Same thing with the VG8, VG99, and GP10, as I have done this with all of them. My reason for settling on the 88, is simply because my 88 is rack mounted, via Keith McMillen, and my KPA is the rack version. When I received my Moog, the setup was a joke, and they blamed it on humidity changes, shipping, etc., which was a huge disappointment, given the expense. I had 2 different luthiers set it up, before it was right. The second setup included filing frets, because they were quite uneven. It now plays very well to the touch! A few months ago, I had to have them give it a $370 repair, including replacing the poer cable, and the Ghost volume pot, which I still have no idea what really caused it ( I was getting no sustain)! So, I have since then been extremely interested in the Keith McMillen StrongArm Sustainer, which has been a bit of vapor ware, but if have been told, it is still very much in the works. In other words, I never wish to be without the poly sustainer, but I don't wish to be tied to a VG, in order to have decent sounding pickups. That said, unless it was strictly to free up some cash flow, I would keep the Moog, even if the StrongArm comes into the market, because it is quite unique, with the different controls it offers. So far, there is nothing like it!

Brak(E)man

Would 1200 be à ok price for à 2011 good shape guitar with case pedals cables etc model E.
(This is in Scandinavia where prices generally are higher)
And what would it cost to fit it with the ghost system ? Roughly?
And is it doable ?
Another Q
How does The vg react if you use the filters in the moog guitar,
How does that affect the sound and or behavior of the vg ?

swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Elantric


thebrushwithin

The price is very reasonable, even for an E1, I would say, if it is in good shape. I would contact moogmusic, to see any details on the installation of the Ghost system, as it is a really tight fit! I have not fooled around with the filter much at all, except for using it the way you would the Fernandes, or Sustainiac, to get the high harmonics, while in sustain mode. The guitar will most likely be a collector's item, but as I mentioned before, the StrongArm sustainer seems to offer more promise, IF it is ever released. There is another poly sustainer pickup, that is featured on another thread, that someone bought, and was having it installed, I believe, but I never saw a follow up review, to date. Even without the 13 pin installed, the new SY300 should be very friendly with the Moog. Something, I have been meaning to try, but have not, is to slap an FTP on it, BUT use the Moog in mute mode, and see if that helps stabilize tracking. Here is a video of a guy who installed a breath controller, in his E1.

thebrushwithin

Here is a current eBay listing for a Moog guitar, but I don't know if the one you are considering, is the Vo collector's edition or not. Still, you can see how much the price has risen.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Moog-Guitar-Paul-Vo-Collectors-Ed-PVCE-Scarlet-Quilt-w-SKB-3i-Waterproof-Case-/111660737933?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19ff7fa58d

Brak(E)man

swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Now_And_Then

#32
Quote from: thebrushwithin on May 09, 2015, 09:21:57 AM
Here is a current eBay listing for a Moog guitar, [...] you can see how much the price has risen.

Not really. That's the asking price which of course is strictly notional; as it has not sold it is not possible to know what relationship, if any, it has to a real selling price. Neither that (now-expired) listing nor its current relisting show any offers at all for it. Ebay's completed listings, which only go back in time a very short while, do not list *any* actually sold E1's of any type, and so judging the value of such a instrument is problematical (unless there are reliable reports of actual selling prices for E1's elsewhere which there well might be.)

I wouldn't be surprised if the price of an E1 is currently above its original (extravagant and exorbitant) $4000 (if I correctly recall) but $8000? I understand that this is the Collector's Edition but still... On the other hand if the seller is willing to leave that E1 up on Ebay long enough, I wouldn't be very surprised if he eventually finds a sufficiently well-monied fool.

thebrushwithin

Collector guitars are just that - for collectors. The market determines the value. Any Moog guitar is unique, and the price is determined by how much a player values that uniqueness. New Gibsons are way overpriced, in my opinion. Check this one out: http://www.guitarcenter.com/Gibson-Custom-1959-Joe-Bonamassa-Les-Paul-Aged-Electric-Guitar-110177417-i3692274.gc?country=us&currency=usd&isfullsite=1&source=4WWRWXGP&gclid=CNqMhuuevMUCFSxn7AodLxAAPg&kwid=productads-plaid%5E18283950120-sku%5E110177417@ADL4GC-adType%5EPLA-device%5Et-adid%5E41539417242


thebrushwithin

QuoteSo, you're saying I was over-charged

Well, no. The point I was making, was simply that the Moog is a newer collectible, because it is relatively rare, and Gibson sells this particular Les Paul for much more, and it is a new guitar, with all of the standard Les Paul features. So, relative to one another, I feel the Moog price, I mentioned from the EBay listing, is a far better value, as a collectible. When you love a guitar, you pay whatever price you feel it is worth. But, I will say I would never pay that much for either guitar. :-)

vanceg

Here's the answer I sent on a PM for everyone to see:

Basically, the VG-99 has no reaction at all when you use the Moog Guitar's filter.  This is because the Moog's filters are not output at all through the Hex(13pin) output of the instrument... The filters are only output through the standard 1/4" output on the Moog Guitar.   Since the VG-99 receives it's signal from the 13 pin, the VG-99 has no way to receive the filtered signal.  The filters do not effect the output or performance of the VG-99 in any way.

Well, I suppose if you used the "mag input" on the VG-99, then the Moog's filtered output would be run through the VG-99's Effects and Amp Modeling...but this would have the predictable results of simply applying effects to the Filtered signal....

$1200 I think is a very good price for an E1.

The Ghost system is the system that Moog used for it's 13 pin output and fitting it yourself is surely cheaper than what Moog had to charge for the install. Yes, it's ENTIRELY possible and really no more difficult to fit it on the Moog guitar than it is on any guitar with the same tremolo. 

Note:  DO NOT try to put a GK-3 on a Moog guitar. This will not work. Seriously, If anyone makes it work... I'll be stunned.  I tried for months, using all sorts of methods to protect the GK-3 from the interference created by the Moog Guitar pickups and no matter what I did, there was just no way around the GK-3 picking up TONS of weird EM interference from the Moog pickups/drivers.  Don't waste your time.  I even worked with Moog to try to get this sorted and they couldn't help at all.  This is why they ended up using the Piezo based Ghost system. 


Quote from: Brak(E)man on May 09, 2015, 02:58:11 AM
Would 1200 be à ok price for à 2011 good shape guitar with case pedals cables etc model E.
(This is in Scandinavia where prices generally are higher)
And what would it cost to fit it with the ghost system ? Roughly?
And is it doable ?
Another Q
How does The vg react if you use the filters in the moog guitar,
How does that affect the sound and or behavior of the vg ?

imerkat

Hey guys,
I was ready to put a bid for this but i thought I should ask some vguitarist here first;
https://reverb.com/item/1538255-moog-e1-butterscotch-blonde-rare-guitar

I want to pair this with the GP-10. I've heard some good this from one user here but i want to know; Do you think it's worth it? is the technology still relevant or is there something better or like it our there now? Any and all opinions are welcome.
Thanks!


BBach

I have a Paul Vo with 13 pin out. I don't have a Gp-10, but I use it with a VG99. I installed the RMC filter in the VG 99 to tame frequencies that the VG99 cannot handle otherwise. Many factory patches do not sound good with the piezo. Many do. The COSM synth patches mostly sound like crap. Some of the guitars have what Elantric describes as an "ice pick " characteristic (a harsh high frequency component). This can be improved with judicious EQ. Keep in mind that the 13 pin output only sends the piezo signal. The out put will be sustained, if you wish, but the Vo pickups are not sent via the 13 pin. This means that the magnetic pickup mix and moog ladder filter will have no effect through the 13 pin signal. This is not a big deal because the GP10 has equivalent and so much more processing. You can use the 1/4" out with the GP10 to process the Amplifier and Effects, but no COSM guitar models will be used or any Effects that process each of the six strings individually.(alternate tunings, COSM effects). You can also ( if the GP10 is like the VG99) blend both of these signals. I have not had much luck using the Moog guitar as a guitar to midi controller while in either of the sustain modes. The sustain seems to confuse the receiving synth and results in lots of stuck notes. You maybe able to overcome this with GK sensitivity settings, but I have not found a good compromise that results in both  guitar and midi at the same time. Maybe it is possible using the 13 pin for midi only and the 1/4" signal only for guitar processing. I don't remember trying that. Also keep in mind that the Moog guitar uses specially made strings and that Moog has no intention of producing any more of these strings once they are all sold.(as you already know, these guitars are discontinued) I am not as concerned about the midi problems because I have the Fishman Triple Play. But you will not be able to install a TP or Gk pickup and have it work properly due to the strong Vo power pickups emitting an enormous magnetic field that will overwhelm these. The piezo is unaffected. In spite of all these drawbacks I love my Moog guitar and love using it through the VG 99. I would call Moog music and see what they intend to do as far as supporting this instrument in the future. There are a ton of electronics in this guitar. If they don't intend to provide service very far into the future, maybe they will sell a service manual.

imerkat

Thank you guys! I intent to use it with the GP-10 usb into Softsynths. I heard the tracking of the Gp-10 is comparable to the FTP, maybe not the same through Piezo? Currently i don't have a guitar to mount a GK or FTP because of the bridges so i'm looking for something that all ready had it and since i  have the ebow i wanted to expand that too.

thebrushwithin

QuoteKeep in mind that the 13 pin output only sends the piezo signal. The out put will be sustained, if you wish, but the Vo pickups are not sent via the 13 pin.

Where did you get this info? I have owned one for several years, and that has not been my impression, not saying you are incorrect, but would like to know the source, because there is not a specific manual for the EM-1 online, that I know of, only the Paul Vo model.

Also, my use with a GR30 and the sustainer employed is absolutely awesome! Zero stuck notes, ghost notes, etc., reacts flawlessly. I am away from the guitar right now, but there are other strings that work quite well. Might be cobalt, stainless steel, I have forgotten, but have extra at home.

Whether or not the deal at Reverb is worth it or not, is hard to say. I have never regretted purchasing a new one, but I will say repairs are costly. Last year, I had a $347 repair done, and I can't brag about their service being efficient.

Elantric


BBach

#43
Quote
Keep in mind that the 13 pin output only sends the piezo signal. The out put will be sustained, if you wish, but the Vo pickups are not sent via the 13 pin.

The brush within, wrote>
QuoteWhere did you get this info? I have owned one for several years, and that has not been my impression, not saying you are incorrect, but would like to know the source, because there is not a specific manual for the EM-1 online, that I know of, only the Paul Vo model.

Also, my use with a GR30 and the sustainer employed is absolutely awesome! Zero stuck notes, ghost notes, etc., reacts flawlessly. I am away from the guitar right now, but there are other strings that work quite well. Might be cobalt, stainless steel, I have forgotten, but have extra at home.

The brushwithin,   Maybe your guitar and mine are different. I use mine all the time, and no magnetic pickup activity emanates from the 13 pin output. You can blend in the piezo output with the magnetic pickups comming out the 1/4 " output, but not the other way around. If I don't connect the 1/4" output to the VG99, I get a ground loop noise (not 60 cycle, but a static that is the result of the newer energy efficient power supply). I'm guessing you do the same and that when you hear the magnetic pickups it is from the 1/4" portion of the mix between the 13 pin and the 1/4". To verify, see if you can get the ladder filter wah when the direct guitar mix is set to zero in the COSM guitar stage. Moog says that there are some strings that will work with the guitar, but are not optimal. Notice that the string gauges are not standard in that the lower strings are of a heavier gauge than what would normally associated with the higher strings. The lower strings are a little less responsive with the moog strings and I'm guessing that phenomenon would be even more pronounced with other brands. I'm encouraged to hear that you are getting good results with pitch to midi. I need to explore that area some more. It sure would be nice to have infinite sustain while controlling synths.
     You will notice that Vancegs experience is the same as mine in the post above. If the magnetic pickup, which does not distinguish between individual strings, were to merge with the hex piezo, which does distinguish between individual strings, the COSM guitar and pitch to midi (in mono mode) would not be able to process the information properly. There is no signal path to send the regular guitar pickups out the 13 pin cable like there is on a GK pickup

Elantric

 When these guitars were new, Vanceg was among the first to own one, and he installed a GK-3 on his - then discovered that due to the high magnetic flux fields radiating from the Paul Vo designed Moog E1 pickups, the GK-3 would not work very well. 

In response, the team at Moog implemented a Ghost Piezo / expander 13 pin preamp option  - but as most of us know, there are many ways to deal with the normal guitar output signal  - some folks get this wrong and intentionally omit implementing the signal path for the normal guitar mag PU signal into the GK 13 pin Output jack because of the widely held view that the only purpose for a 13 pin jack Output is for MIDI guitar.     

Its possible that early serial number Moog E1M, lack the magnetic PU signal output within the GK 13pin Output, while later versions are wired differently. 

vanceg

I did, indeed, do a LOT of work and experimentation with the Moog Guitar and the VG-99.

In all of the Moog guitars that I have seen (including my own, which I no longer own) the Moog Magnetic pickups are NOT output through the 13pin.  Instead, a mono mix of the Piezo pickup is sent down the "Normal Guitar" channel on the 13 pin.   However, my friend in SanFrancisco says that he rewired his Moog Guitar so that the magnetic pickups are routed to the Normal Guitar output which travels down the 13 pin cable.  In no case is the actual signal from the Moog Magnetic Pickups used for the Polyphonic signal on the 13 pin.

To thebrushwithin:  I would definitely like to know if you can hear the effect of the Moog Ladder Filter when listening to the Normal Guitar input of your V-Guitar device when only the 13pin is connected.    This would mean that they wired the magnetic pickup into the Normal Guitar line of the 13pin.  I would be REALLY interested if you could hear BOTH the Piezo and Magnetic outputs.  This would be an interesting trick to pull off.

Earlier in the thread:
Quote from: BBach on February 29, 2016, 10:01:30 AM
This means that the magnetic pickup mix and moog ladder filter will have no effect through the 13 pin signal.

Well, I think I get what you are saying here... and I agree that it's accurate but I'd like to clarify for others:  The Moog guitar has a Piezo Balance, and it has a Harmonic Blend which controls how much each of the two drivers (which are built into the same housing as the magnetic pickups) drive the strings.  Sometimes the "Harmonic Blend" control is mis-identified as "pickup mix" or "driver mix"

I suspect you are correctly calling  the Piezo Balance control the "Pickup mix".  You are 100% correct (of course) that this will have no effect on any signal on the 13 pin cable.  T

However, adjusting Harmonic Blend causes the harmonic content on the actual guitar strings to change by controlling the mix of the two sustainer/drivers built into the guitar.   The effect of this control IS absolutely heard on the polyphonic output and will be heard when using COSM modeling and polyphonic processing.  It is sometimes subtle, but it's also pretty great!  Being able to adjust the harmonic content of the strings itself was one of the most exciting aspects of the Moog Guitar for me (and why I ultimately switched to using Paul Vo's later invention the Vo96, as this is it's primary purpose in life).

Again - I suspect that you BBach, understand this...

I definitely recommend that nobody try to put a magnetic hex pickup like a GK-3 on a Moog Guitar.  It isn't going to work well.   Really. I didn't just try it - I worked with Paul Vo and Moog and tried many, many approaches before finally realizing it's futile. 








thebrushwithin

QuoteThe brushwithin,   Maybe your guitar and mine are different. I use mine all the time, and no magnetic pickup activity emanates from the 13 pin output. You can blend in the piezo output with the magnetic pickups comming out the 1/4 " output, but not the other way around.

Well, I finally did hook up the audio out on the pedal, and my guitar is the same as Bbach and Vanceg. My setup never was used in this way, and so, my experience did not have a need for the ladder filter (but it is very good). I am simply using the 13 pin, to my VG88, and GR30. The VG88 is used ONLY for guitar modeling, and then drives my Kemper. It is rare for me to need a wah, when performing live, but since reading your posts, it maybe interesting to use the audio out of the Moog, and the 13 pin, for certain patches, to utilize the ladder filter. I believe I tried the audio out initially, but didn't care for the Moog pickups, and then made the decision to use the VG88 for guitar modeling.
Thanks for the clarification!