Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?

Started by Elantric, July 15, 2011, 02:18:36 AM

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whippinpost91850

AS A 60 year old who's been using Roland guitar synths for 25yrs (mostly in cover bands) I just Wish Roland would listen to the people that actually use them!!!!! :'(

dead_lizard

we'd have more luck trying to reverse engineer it somehow, i'm beginning to think. we've waited far too long already.

Now_And_Then

Quote from: germanicus on July 29, 2011, 10:49:02 PM
I hope whatever product path they decide to pursue (however many years away), be it a new GR hybrid like the 55, or a new VG (with or without midi conversion)...

The GR-55 and the VG-99 are not really members of either the GR or VG families; by virtue of combining midi conversion with COSM modeling, they are hybrids that should be in a third family, even if Roland has not seen fit to expressly create such a family. Very roughly, the difference between them is that the GR-55 contains an onboard synth and no guitar modeling, whereas the VG-99 omits the onboard synth in favour of COSM guitars (and of course far more elaborate user tweakability.)

onemoreguitar

Actually the GR-55 has COSM guitars same as the VG-99.  It's just a dumbed down version.  It's more like a very dumbed down single channel of a VG-99, one channel of a GT-10 also dumbed down and 2 GR-20 in one.  The dumbed down part is what has kept me from going for it. 

Now_And_Then

 Oh, that's right. I forgot about that. Thank you for the correction. And luckily it does not vitiate my point at all.

aliensporebomb

Other things that they missed the boat on - I was watching a video last night on youtube where a guy bought a G-202 guitar and GR-300 module.    Everyone in the comments were going on about how "phat" it was and how great it sounded and it was a bummer that you couldn't buy one anymore.  "Why did they discontinue it?"
"How come the old ones were so scarce and expensive?"  "Why can't we get that sound anymore?"

And yet, if you buy a VG-99 or a GR-55 you get a full blown GR-300 inside it - it was never marketed in the advertising to my knowledge - it was never discussed at all!  Anyone who ever liked it would want it!  Anyone who didn't would go "Oh, that's a nice feature I won't use much".

How did I find out about it?  It was the Premiere Guitar discussion of the VG-99 and how accurate the GR-300 emulation was inside it.  The product had been out for a couple of years and I'd more or less lost interest in the whole "Let's model a Dumble 100%!" crowd but when I realize the VG-99 wasn't just a one-trick modeler but a wonder box with lots of options I went for it fully.

I saw exactly two ads in Guitar Player and nowhere else.

My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

vanceg

 I think it makes total sense for the VG-99 to have Pitch to MIDI. If it worked better.

The reason the VG-99 doesn't have the same amazing pitch to MIDI performance that the GR-55 has is twofold:

1) They botched the sensitivity settings. As mentioned before, setting the string sensitivity properly for the modeling side of the VG-99 messes it up for the Pitch to MIDI. And Vice Versa.  There is no almost conceivable way that this could not be fixed in software/firmware. It at least could be fixed with a very minor design change which allowed for two separate string sensitivities.

2) People are comparing the GR-55's pitch to MIDI conversion to the VG-99's when the GR-55 is triggering it's own INTERNAL synth.  There are a bunch of really great advantages to triggering an internal synth. One of which is that you don't actually have to convert to MIDI. This is the case with the GR-55: When you trigger the GR-55s internal synth, the signal is never actually converted to MIDI.  The pitch and amplitude detection send signals more or less straight to the synth.  Sure, it's still a "MIDI-Like" signal in that it contains pitch and amplitude information which triggers the internal synth, but it's not MIDI. What does this give you? Well, it saves you a few time-consuming steps: Converting to MIDI, Transmitting a MIDI message (allbe it internally), receiving a MIDI message, parsing a MIDI message.   What's that save you?  Time.  Not a LOT of time, but as we all know, Milliseconds count a LOT in the feel and responsiveness of a guitar to synth system. 

Try comparing a VG-99 set up for pitch to MIDI conversion triggering a synth to a GR-55 that is triggering the same (external) synth and I don't think you will believe that the GR-55 is such a magic device anymore. Sure, it's really nice.  I still think it tracks better than the VG-99, but if you do this comparison (which I have quite a few times), it's pretty remarkable how close the two are.  Especially considering that the GR-55 was developed several years after the VG-99.

My point is - there's really no reason the VG-99 couldn't have pretty much the same pitch to MIDI as the GR-55.  That is, if you are triggering external synths.  Personally, I really, really, really don't care for the PCM synth in the GR-55. Not my cup of tea AT ALL. So, if/when I use a GR-55 it's to trigger other devices. And, frankly, my VG-99 does just about as well as the GR-55 at that.


While I'm on a soapbox (it's getting windy up here):  I suspect that the Dbeam and Ribbon controller cost a lot more to include on the VG-99 than pitch to MIDI did.  hardware. Lots of hardware.

aliensporebomb

I had a totally strange and vivid dream last night that might even be true.

Are there any users who have VG-99 *not* on 1.04 version of the firmware? 

The dream was basically that if you were running 1.0 or another early version, then MIDI worked fine with "reasonable" sensitivity levels on the VG-99 but if you updated to 1.04 it "broke" and the problems we see with MIDI and reasonable sensivity levels.  It was totally weird, like I was watching a youtube video in my dream.

Might not have anything to it but.....   I'm going to do some tests on 1.04 in the days ahead.  I still maintain my old GR guitar worked much better for guitar-to-midi than my current one. 

My current one is a strat and a lot of people have GK3s attached to strats.  I wonder if there's something to it?
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Elantric

If you are currently on VG-99 Firmware Version 1.04 - I would stay there and avoid downgrading.

The main issue  / hurdle with downgrading to Pre Version 1.04 firmware:

*  The earlier version firmware SMF files are not available to the general public.

*  Quite a few folks had major problems back in December 2007 when attempting to update the VG-99 Firmware, and things went wrong during the update. There is a great risk in "bricking" your VG-99 if the firmware install goes wrong! (power outage, wrong SMF data transmission speed, bad checksums, etc. 

This is what Roland states the VG-99 Version 1.04 addresses:

[Version 1.04]
Four new Pickup Types have been added to GK PU TYPE parameter.
(Please refer VG-99_l_ver104_e_web.pdf.)
This update also fixes the FAVORITE SETTINGS related issue and some other functions' issues.

More here:
http://ftp.roland.co.jp/support/en/downloads/res/1812326/VG-99_v104_features.pdf

aliensporebomb

Quote from: Elantric on August 03, 2011, 11:41:19 AM
If you are currently on VG-99 Firmware Version 1.04 - I would stay there and avoid downgrading.

The main issue  / hurdle with downgrading to Pre Version 1.04 firmware:

*  The earlier version firmware SMF files are not available to the general public.

*  Quite a few folks had major problems back in December 2007 when attempting to update the VG-99 Firmware, and things went wrong during the update. There is a great risk in "bricking" your VG-99 if the firmware install goes wrong! (power outage, wrong SMF data transmission speed, bad checksums, etc. 

This is what Roland states the VG-99 Version 1.04 addresses:

[Version 1.04]
Four new Pickup Types have been added to GK PU TYPE parameter.
(Please refer VG-99_l_ver104_e_web.pdf.)
This update also fixes the FAVORITE SETTINGS related issue and some other functions' issues.

More here:
http://ftp.roland.co.jp/support/en/downloads/res/1812326/VG-99_v104_features.pdf

I think I'll stay on 1.04!  In all honesty it was just a strange dream I had that gave me the idea.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

cynegetic

Quote from: vanceg on August 02, 2011, 08:20:09 PM
1) They botched the sensitivity settings. As mentioned before, setting the string sensitivity properly for the modeling side of the VG-99 messes it up for the Pitch to MIDI. And Vice Versa.  There is no almost conceivable way that this could not be fixed in software/firmware. It at least could be fixed with a very minor design change which allowed for two separate string sensitivities.

? MIDIs not that bad on the 99.

And you can have different GK settings per patch. Just have one that you use for your 'Mainly MIDI' patches, one for your 'Mainly Guitar' patches, and a couple that you can used for your mixed patches.

It's not like you really need ZOMG authenticstrats tonez!1! on the guitar side when you are also doing a Hammond line in unison or something.

IMHO of course.

Also, I wouldn't say that they botched the settings. Heck they didn't figure out how to get them right until a product that came out ? years later with the nuance or whatever settings (I think anyway, don't have one).

gumtown

Quote from: aliensporebomb on August 03, 2011, 06:34:20 PM
In all honesty it was just a strange dream I had that gave me the idea.
Too much time on the computer??

One thing i have found with a memory of old gear you once had, is your memory has a funny way of exagerating events over time.
Classic example is when you have a memory of a favourite piece of 80's rack gear (12bit effects processor) that seemed mavelous at the time, then one day you buy the same thing again from a junk sale, and your expectations are blown to pieces once you try the gear again
(and that nice memory ruined).

Also it could be like getting back with an old girlfriend from years ago, and then you suddenly realise why you split in the first place.

What i'm angling at is you buy and sell gear over the years, you perception at the time may have been "yeah- i would rate that at a 95%", then years later your percived rating is still 95% for that same bit of equipment.
But when compared to something new it might actually sit around 55% (or typically less), so that's where i see some saying "but the old gear was better !!"   
.... So how many different sounds could the GR-300 make?

Jumping off the soapbox now..
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

aliensporebomb

I'm glad you mentioned that Gumtown - something extremely, extremely weird happened at my last gig:

This guy showed up, receding hairline, thin, seemed like a techy type and he said "long time no see!" and my brain then
started spinning because I couldn't remember this guy at all - I tried to picture him with hair and then things started to
focus.  But it still was so far back in the archives that I wasn't sure if it was the guy I was remembering and then boom!

It turns out this guy not only saw me play some twenty six years ago (1985?) but he said "I'll never forget you because you let me touch the first synthesizer I ever touched". 

And guess what THAT synthesizer was?  My old Roland G-202/GR300 setup!

How weird when things come full circle.  From out of the blue I don't see this guy for the better part of three decades and what should he see but me playing the current incarnation of Roland MagHex/Module technology!

--

Back to our original topic: does Roland shoot themselves in the foot by not updating their products with software updates
or do they encourage people to buy the new products that come out later by not doing so? 

Right now with the economy even worse than it was previously with recent developments it's amazing there are people
with money to buy said devices and resources at said companies are thin. 

Some of us would pay for a software update but how many actual VG-99 owners are there - I'd wager there are more
GR-55 owners just based on the activity around here.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Vgunn

Quote from: whippinpost91850 on July 15, 2011, 11:25:41 AM
Didn't mean to be so negative in my last post. i'm loving alot of the capabilities of my GR55, but am finding the work around for the patch delay alone to be more expensive then, paying a little more for a more live usable unit. I don't know maybe It's just me.  I just like things (not neccessarily easy)to work

What is the work around?   BTW, I deal with this by creating a different patch for each song and using only the stuff I can do within a single patch for any given song.

vanceg

That's MY point!  MIDI on the VG-99 is not that bad at all!  In fact, I think it's really, really good. What they "botched" that causes people to say it's "Totally unusable" (which MANY folks have said) is that the sensitivity settings for MIDI and for the modeling don't match well.

Yes, indeedie you can set up different GK settings per patch and this is exactly what most of us who use the VG-99 for Pitch to MIDi end up doing. 

Again - it's my strong assertion that the primary reason that the GR-55 has such a better reputation for Pitch to MIDI is that it's typically used to trigger it's own synth...which doesn't have to go through the entire MIDI signal generation and reception process.

I'm all for the pitch to MIDI on the VG-99. 

That said - I don't USE pitch to MIDI very much just because I'm not that interested in triggering synths. When I do use it, it's either 1) to experiment so that I can provide product evaluations to my clients, or 2) to control effect parameters based on the pitch of the note(s) I'm playing.



Quote from: cynegetic on August 03, 2011, 07:41:31 PM
? MIDIs not that bad on the 99.

And you can have different GK settings per patch. Just have one that you use for your 'Mainly MIDI' patches, one for your 'Mainly Guitar' patches, and a couple that you can used for your mixed patches.

It's not like you really need ZOMG authenticstrats tonez!1! on the guitar side when you are also doing a Hammond line in unison or something.

IMHO of course.

Also, I wouldn't say that they botched the settings. Heck they didn't figure out how to get them right until a product that came out ? years later with the nuance or whatever settings (I think anyway, don't have one).

aliensporebomb

I think the ideal setting will be highly personal based on each individual VG-99 owners playing style and the guitar sound used.  Do you have a light touch?  Do you dig in heavy?  Are you a vintage traditionalist or a modern style player?  What is your view on how synths should be played?  Are you a staccato stylist or a smooth legato player?  All these factor. 
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

whippinpost91850

I use an FCB1010 for all my program changes. I had a friend Bruce Egnater build me an external inline relay to mute the guitar output (direct to my amp)controlled by relay out on the FCB1010.  I use it when I need to have just synth sounds in parts of certain songs. After I get a break from my next couple of gigs, we are going to try modifing and installing either a quiter relay in the FCB1010 or add another circuit as there is plenty of room. Will post picture when I get back in town.

acousticglue

Getting back to the topic, it would be nice if Roland were more personal in the same standing that POD, Amplitube and others have made strides to keep a user base that is getting updates for the unit. I mean, these guys had to start a forum in their stead! How impersonal can one company be? I won't purchase another Roland product, you can bet on it. Not if they don't start playing to the masses. It doesn't matter to me that the unit can do all these things. It falls on deaf Japanese ears.

aliensporebomb

AcousticGlue has a good point.  Most of the other electronics conglomerates are communicating in the way we communicate these days:  online.  Twitter, Facebook, etcetera.  Especially twitter.  The VG-99 informal board on Facebook has been dead for months - I don't even know if it's still active.

I've been looking at Twitter recently looking at various firms and it appears that Roland_UK is the only one with a sizeable twitter presence - actually responding to a VG-99 user who was confused about some features pointing him to the Roland Canada videos up on youtube.   I follow Roland_US but I don't see them posting much.
If Roland_Japan has any presence I probably can't read it anyway! 

If you follow #VG-99 and #GR-55 you'll see a LOT of traffic in Japanese (Kanji) and I really need to get that part of the language down so I can see what they're talking about.  I get the idea there's a lot more users of these devices over there but there's no organized way to let anyone over here communicate with anyone over there!   

I'm a member of a well known Ibanez forum and there are at least five regular users from Japan (most notably Hasenobu-san who wrote a series of books on rare vintage Japanese guitars, TAD who lives very near the main Fujigen guitar plant, and a few others) who follow that board who are at least serviceable as far as their english goes - I've not seen anyone from that part of the world on the vguitarforums yet.

I'll tell you, I'm very curious what the Japanese are doing with these devices - do they have the same concerns we do about updates?  Who is using the VG-99 and
GR-55 over there?  There's a wall somewhere and we have to knock it down! 
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Elantric

Join the Roland / Boss Facebook site and ask Dave Navarro about the VG-99 / GR-55 here:

???

http://app.bronto.com/public/?q=preview_message&fn=Link&t=1&ssid=4067&id=d9m11o3ircuyfqsggf44wcxdsbc7c&id2=ewsalqwhgxxesyxtp2ux3lqijnlez&subscriber_id=bixpumjuziyedvbwfuxyggqizyhvblp&messageversion_id=bokvlrlxrxzyqqrwxvtqcpvkawhibic&delivery_id=bjarrstwxutwstusbayksbdrikawbch&tid=3.D-M.Al0TdQ.B_Fj.Q2Wc..YJsv.b..l.YCY.b.TkmByA.Tkm10A.nEH30Q

http://www.facebook.com/RolandCorpUS

http://www.facebook.com/BOSSUS
Meanwhile - VGuitarForums exists out of sheer need and the massive work of volunteers / users of this high tech Guitar gear - we have zero affiliation or funding from Roland - who prefer to remain aloof and not affiliated with our efforts here at VGuitarForums.com.

Since 2003, I have repeatedly suggested to Roland US that a User Forum for their high tech guitar products was obviously a good thing - and they disagreed.


Roland UK does the closet job to providing a decent end user forum.
http://www.rolandforums.co.uk/

Elantric

Old thread, but re-reading my  1st post this thread , it appears my predictions that Roland will design a lower cost VGuitar system came true (2014 Boss GP-10)

Quote
In tough economic times like these, Roland Japan (who designs all the products) will be responding by re-prioritizing and re-tasking its limited engineering workforce to focus on creating brand new lower cost gear (with reduced feature set), to generate new sales revenue in the lower cost product market segments, as a response to today's cash strapped world economy.
I'm of the opinion they are not in a position today to place those same engineering resources creating new firmware, or adding new features to existing premium priced products with declining sales like the VG-99, VB-99 during a global economic recession.
Remember this is the same company that decided to cancel creating a GR-55 Editor and not adding a 1/4" Normal Guitar Input jack on the GR-55, deeming these too costly. Apparently lack of these items has not deterred the extremely high user demand and robust sales the GR-55 has been experiencing since its release this year.
The Roland Corporate Financial Officers call the shots, and I reluctantly agree their decisions have proved to be the smart decision.

The GR-55 is a hit, as reflected in the significant growth rate of www.VGuitarForums.com this year (We've more than doubled our numbers to (effective July 2011) to over 4000 members !)

Ever since the GR-55 was announced at Winter NAMM show in mid January 2011, we are growing at a rate of  250 (average ) new members each month. The good news,  key people at each Roland distributor around the globe are silently observing and paying attention to our discussions, and this will influence the direction of future products.   

acousticglue

and I bought a Sy300 after saying never. The thing is the updates and there could be more to the SY300 as GR5 by NI has many features that lend to being able to synthesize the sounds. More FX being able to run or adding more categories to firmware updates. The 99 had too many things, to me, that left me wondering why I would ever use it. I dont need my pedal to control lights, I didnt nee the beam but I did need some new amps and cabs, some fresh synths inside. The possibility to add a processor or RAM (not sure could fo this). These are things that keeps a product selling. My software stuff can be reloaded if I have a failed system. 99 would be done.