RC300 sync (mis-)behaviour

Started by andgar, July 23, 2012, 10:02:21 PM

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andgar

Could someone possibly confirm that they also get this behaviour from the RC300 (and whether it's supposed to work this way):

Tracks 1 and 2 set to loop sync on, tempo sync off
Track 3 set to loop sync off, tempo sync off

The goal is to be able to have tracks 1 and 2 in sync, but have something ambient looping out of time in track 3.

If I start by setting up the ambient loop in track 3, then recording track 1 then 2, it all works as expected.

BUT if I start by recording track 1 then track 2 (both in sync), then try to record an independent ambient loop in track 3, the RC300 forces track 3 to behave like it's in sync (i.e. it will fill the end of the loop with silence so that it always starts with track 1).

Anyone also find this? Is this supposed to happen? (I'm hoping "no". In fact, I believe if this worked properly, it would be the RC300s main strength over the Boomerang III).

Hopkins

I will test when I get a bit of free time, but it sounds wrong.  One thing: does track 3 have its "Measure" property set to "FREE" (not "AUTO")?  The first AUTO track recorded behaves in the same way as the first FREE track, but subsequent AUTO tracks *will* default to the same length as the first AUTO track recorded (which is not the case with subsequent FREE tracks).

andgar

Yep, same behaviour no matter if all tracks set to AUTO or FREE or any combination thereof. Interestingly, if you watch the measure settings as you start recording tracks, they spontaneously change to some fixed tempo with a fixed measure length (not really what I would expect a FREE setting to do).

Hopkins

Very frustrating.  Well, I cannot say much more until I have spent some time playing around.  (I should have some time to do this because it seems that the 1.02 update might have screwed the MIDI out which I depend on, so I cannot do what I want to do!)  I have only well tested the RC-300 when both Loop Sync and Tempo Sync are on - this is just a result of the type of music I am trying to make.

Hopkins

I have reproduced exactly what you describe.  It is a little strange because, in the manual on page 16, under heading "Aligning the Beginning of Loop Playback (Loop Sync)", it appears to illustrate exactly what you are trying to do.  It does not, however, explicitly state that this is *only* possible when you record the un-sync'd loop first.

It does go on to describe what actually causes the behaviour you have described:

QuoteAutomatically Adjusting the Phrase Length (Loop Quantize)
If the rhythm is on, or if there is an already-recorded track whose Tempo Sync is turned on, this function will automatically adjust the length of the phrase to match the tempo and the time signature of the rhythm, even if the timing at which recording ended was not quite accurate.

So that is the problem: "Loop Quantise", which they have taken the trouble to name, is not under the user's direct control.  This is definitely going on in the Feature Requests thread.

I suppose potential work arounds are:


  • Record un-sync'd loop first
  • Set the memory/phrase tempos to be as high as possible, which should result in the sync'd tracks having as many measures as possible.  Then the un-sync'd track will have more but shorter measures, thus it will be more likely to have a short bit of silence, or a shorter cut-off...
  • Force the loop to conform to the timing of the earlier loops.

All poor and limiting, but the only suggestions I can think off!

shawnb

#5
I just confirmed this behavior.   

** Edit:  After further experimentation, I now know the following information is incorrect....   
It appears to only happen when track 3 is the shortest of the three.   You get your desired behavior if track 3 is longer than the other two.   

For some reason, with this configuration, it treats tracks 1 or 2 as a minimum length if they are recorded first.  You will notice that if you press the rec/play pedal before 1 or 2 have played their full loop, track 3 continues recording until 1 or 2 have completed - so it records the silence. 

Very odd...   I don't know why it would set a minimum track length like this.   

It does help to note that it didn't turn 'loop sync' on - it set a minimum track length somehow. 

I think you need to either (a) record trk 3 first or (b) make trk 3 the longest.  Might be worthwhile to record a bug with Boss (& light a prayer candle...)

Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

shawnb

Hopkins - our posts crossed.   I don't think it's the quantize feature, because he has tempo sync off on all 3 tracks. 

FYI - I had experimented with having tempo sync ON for tracks 1 & 2, and again with tempo sync ON for ALL tracks, but got the same result either way.  My initial theory was that the tracks & tempos were being back-calculated for track 3 (as shown on the bottom of page 19).  I was hoping that turning tempo sync ON for tracks 1 & 2 (or all) would prevent the dreaded back-calc.   But no, it didn't make a difference.   
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Hopkins

Quote from: shawnb on July 24, 2012, 09:39:04 AMHopkins - our posts crossed.   I don't think it's the quantize feature, because he has tempo sync off on all 3 tracks.

Oh, yes, it does say Tempo Sync in that box out, so my assertion was incorrect.  However, I think that this might be a typo, and that they might have meant to write "Loop Sync".  I also tried with various combinations of loop and tempo sync, to no avail.  I think that all Tempo Sync does is allow for tracks to be stretched and pitch shifted "correctly" - I don't think it actually affects the length or position of the tracks.

Quote from: shawnb on July 24, 2012, 09:23:29 AMYou get your desired behavior if track 3 is longer than the other two.

Can you check that please?  I definitely could not get this behaviour even if the third track was longer.  I tested by setting up the tracks as described and looping me saying "1,2,3,4" on track 2.  Then I tried to make a "1,2,3,4,5" loop on the third track, but it "snapped" to the shorter length and I'd just hear "1,2,3,4,f..." (f... is supposed be the start of 5 being cut off!) as it then looped in sync with track 2.  I also tested with the Rec-Overdub setting on, and that just overdubbed the "5" on top of the "1" of track 3.

Amazingly, if I did exactly the same but with "1,2,3,4,5,6,7" in Rec-Overdub mode, then it created a two measure track with a gap at the end.  This means that when it recorded "1,2,3,4,5" and I pressed to overdub, it had stored the "5" temporarily and only actually overdubbed it when it knew that I was not continuing on to record ",6,7"!

Hopkins

andgar, send a support mail to Boss via this link:

http://www.bossus.com/backstage/email_support/

I mailed them about my MIDI "issue".  I did not have a reply, for two days, but then when I created a second case to explain that the first case was a mistake, they responded in a couple of hours to thank me, and they did mention that they had started to look at my first "issue".  My point is: someone is reading the mails, and you seem to be having an issue that is contrary to the wording of the manual.

andgar

Will do, and I'll report back if they have anything to say. Thanks Hopkins

shawnb

#10
Sorry for the late reply, I've been busy with guests from out of town!   

My earlier note, that 'track 3' in the scenario must be longer than track 1 or 2 was incorrect.  I think in my earlier tests I played full measures, and if you play full measures, you get the desired behavior, e.g., track 1 can be 2 measures, track 2 can be 8 measures & track 3 can be 13 measures & it will loop & do cool overlapping things.  However...   

The question is how to make it work if you do NOT play full measures, if you want deliberately out-of-sync behavior for one of your three tracks, the other two of which are in sync, AND FURTHER, the other track(s) were recorded first. 

It won't work.  The behavior is NOT what is desired.   It is, however, EXACTLY what is documented on page 19, which has always bothered me as being too simple...   And yes, the logic is too simple.   

As illustrated on page 19, IF either the rhythm is on, OR, any track has a phrase recorded with Loop on & Loop Sync on, OR any track has a phrase recorded with Loop on & Tempo Sync on, THEN the tempo is forced to be the same as the patch tempo.   It doesn't matter if the track being currently recorded does not have Loop Sync on, Tempo Sync on, or has FREE specified for the # of measures.   (I just painstakingly verified all of this in a test...)   

Why is this a problem?   Because 'measures' are always whole #s...  (Even with 'FREE' specified...)  Your phrase's measures, tempo, time signature & recording length are locked together in a simple mathematical relationship.  The ONLY way to get a varied recording length is to assign a different TEMPO to that phrase.   I.e., if you have Loop Sync OFF, Tempo Sync OFF, the rhythm track OFF and FREE specified as the # of measures for all 3 phrases, and you record 3 different length recordings, you will get 3 different tempos associated with the phrases.  (I just verified this in a test...)

Problem is, the logic for setting the tempo on page 19 is followed exactly...  Thus the tempo is fixed, based on the patch tempo.   If the tempo is FIXED, and the # of measures must be a WHOLE #, then your recording length is forced to be full measures, even if the track is set to FREE...     

Since the logic is based on what has been previously recorded, this is why it works perfectly for angar if he records the 'floating' track first.   But it won't work if there is an existing phrase recorded with Loop Sync ON or Tempo Sync ON, or, if the Rhythm is ON.   

I tried to find a workaround, by recording the initial 2 & trying to change the properties of the recorded phrases.  But you cannot change the properties of a recorded phrase, e.g., you cannot change Tempo Sync from On to Off.   So that didn't work. 

So I need to retract my previous conclusions.   With the current logic, you cannot sync two tracks, & subsequently record a 3rd track with a completely independent recording length.  You must either record the 'floating' track first, OR, have all three tracks 'float', or, your 'floating' track cannot float too much, the recorded length must be a multiple of the previously recorded phrase(s) measures' lengths. 

Man I hope this was clear, it's fairly convoluted...   

And yes, I think this is a significant problem for folks like andgar who want to mix sync'd and floating tracks within a performance on the RC300.  As Hopkins points out, the graphics throughout the manual imply this behavior, but it doesn't work. 
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Hopkins

So, what would be the best way to fix this?  Do we need a separate "Loop Quantise" setting, or should the current settings suffice if interpreted differently?  I am aware that part of the job of Loop Sync is to allow stretching of tracks when you change the memory tempo, which leads me to think that perhaps a separate Loop Quantise setting *is* necessary.

andgar

Yeah, I'm not sure what the solution would be... Ideally I'd like to be able to turn off all tempo modifying (stretching etc) and rhythm behaviour of the RC300, so I guess an ability to turn quantize off would be great. Maybe they should just make it that when you turn the "rhythm" off, then quantize is disabled and if people want quantize but no rhythm track they could just turn the rhythm volume to 0? That said, this would suit me but probably not most RC300 users.

(BTW - thanks shawnb and Hopkins for all the testing!!!)

shawnb

Quote from: andgar on July 26, 2012, 05:17:43 PM
Yeah, I'm not sure what the solution would be... Ideally I'd like to be able to turn off all tempo modifying (stretching etc) and rhythm behaviour of the RC300, so I guess an ability to turn quantize off would be great. (BTW - thanks shawnb and Hopkins for all the testing!!!)

If you turn Rhythm off & the Tempo Sync's off on all tracks, there is no quantizing.   I really don't think quantizing is a problem on the RC300.  (It was a major problem on the RC50.)   And you can get all 3 tracks 'floating' by also leaving the Loop Sync OFF on all tracks as well.   

Actually, this was a good puzzle.   I learned a lot trying out various combinations of paramters, how the parameters worked together. 

I also recorded a bug with Boss.   Doesn't hurt to try.   They shouldn't ignore your Temp Sync OFF setting - despite their documentation, I don't think that's right.   Maybe they'll fix it. 

I'm not sure this is a deep problem with the unit - very specifically targeted to mixing sync'd & non-sync'd modes & recording a sync'd track first.   Like I've said before - treat each piece of gear like a unique instrument.  Play with it & perform with the other 99% that DOES work.   In this case, either record your non-sync'd track first OR play with everything non-sync'd.  Actually, if your 'track 3' in the scenario above is long enough, I don't think anyone would ever notice that it's sync'd to measures (e.g., a 17 measure loop over an 8 measure loop).   
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Hopkins

Quote from: andgar on July 26, 2012, 05:17:43 PM(BTW - thanks shawnb and Hopkins for all the testing!!!)

No probs - as shawnb says it is interesting to test these ideas!

Quote from: shawnb on July 26, 2012, 10:44:05 PMI also recorded a bug with Boss.   Doesn't hurt to try.   They shouldn't ignore your Temp Sync OFF setting - despite their documentation, I don't think that's right.   Maybe they'll fix it.

But this is only if we assume that tempo sync should control the "loop quantise" behaviour.  To put it another way, you may want to do exactly what andgar wants, but then to time stretch the whole lot - the sync'd tracks 1 and 2 and the out of sync track 3.  Time stretching appears to be the primary function of Tempo Sync on the RC-300 and should not place any requirement on the length of the tracks.  This is why I think that an independent "loop quantise" setting should be exposed.

Quote from: shawnb on July 26, 2012, 10:44:05 PMI'm not sure this is a deep problem with the unit - very specifically targeted to mixing sync'd & non-sync'd modes & recording a sync'd track first.   Like I've said before - treat each piece of gear like a unique instrument.  Play with it & perform with the other 99% that DOES work.   In this case, either record your non-sync'd track first OR play with everything non-sync'd.  Actually, if your 'track 3' in the scenario above is long enough, I don't think anyone would ever notice that it's sync'd to measures (e.g., a 17 measure loop over an 8 measure loop).

I agree with your sentiment, and hopefully most users will find ways to work around the limitations (for me it was the whole syncopated loop thing - which I haven't even used yet :P).  That said, there is something clinical and "tool-like" about a device like the RC-300 which seems to invite criticism, in a way that perhaps a traditional instrument would not.  When you combine that with the complexities of a process such as on-the-fly looping (which I had simply not realised before owning a multi-track looper), you can imagine how hard it must be to meet everyone's requirements!  I am actually still amazed at how good a job BOSS have actually done (however, being new to it, I missed the RC-50 trauma, which must have jaded many users).  I am still most surprised by the on-the-fly overdub caching that I discovered a few posts above this.

shawnb

QuotePLEASE DO NOT RESPOND DIRECTLY TO THIS EMAIL.

To: bulens  @pacbell.net
RE: Support Request #96343
Product: RC-300
Subject: Tempo Sync OFF not honored
Question: The Tempo Sync setting, if set to 'OFF', is ignored under certain circumstances. I.e., the RC300 acts as if Tempo Sync is 'ON' when:
(a) The Rhythm guide is on
(b) Another phrase has already been recorded in another track with Tempo Sync on or Loop Sync on.

If you want Tempo Sync OFF, e.g., for more ambient performances, that setting should be honored.

Thanks -

Hello Shawn,

Based on your request, we need more detailed information to determine what you're trying to accomplish. Please call Product Support at your earliest convenience. Product Support is available Monday through Friday, 8:30am to 5:00pm Pacific Standard Time.

Product Support: 323-890-3740

Sincerely,
Roland Product Support

PLEASE DO NOT RESPOND DIRECTLY TO THIS EMAIL.

I'll call 'em tomorrow & let you know how it goes.   Of course the only reason I didn't have more info in the description is that there is like a 200 char limit on their bug reporting tool. 
   
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Hopkins

Ah, cool, I look forward to the response.

shawnb

#17
Spoke with Chris at the support line (phone # in the email above).   He says he can get the exact desired behavior with Tempo Sync Off, Loop Sync Off and Measures set to FREE and track 3 is recorded last.    He was working with his RC300 & although he didn't have an instrument connected, when he was done recording track 3, the track recording light turned off immediately, in the middle of a measure, confirming to him that track 3 was 'floating' and was not sync'd to tracks 1/2 in any way.     

Since I couldn't see what he was doing I have to take him at his word.   I'll try this once again tonight, though I KNOW I've tried that scenario. 

Good news:  He seems to know the gear very well & there was not a long wait on the phone line at all, only a few minutes (at this hour).   Anybody can call him with such questions, you don't need a ticket in advance.  Just call the # above.   

Bad news:  This is difficult to diagnose over the phone.   He wants a very specific script to reproduce when I call him back tomorrow. 

In the meanwhile, it's good to know the support line worked & folks were there to help. 

Andgar/Hopkins - if you can call with a 'script' (including settings for all 3 tracks) and report that may help confirm in their mind that this doesn't really work...   

Shawn

(As an aside:  While on hold, the ads were for the GC1, the VG99 and the GR55...  I seriously question the cheezy '70s movie score jazz in the background of the ad, though...  )
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Hopkins

Quote from: shawnb on July 30, 2012, 10:02:01 AMSpoke with Chris at the support line (phone # in the email above).   He says he can get the exact desired behavior with Tempo Sync Off, Loop Sync Off and Measures set to FREE and track 3 is recorded last.

Strange, I will check too, but if this is the case then something is wrong with *those* settings!

Quote from: shawnb on July 30, 2012, 10:02:01 AMBad news:  This is difficult to diagnose over the phone.   He wants a very specific script to reproduce when I call him back tomorrow.

I suppose that means start with System settings at their default values and a fresh phrase memory, then note every change.  I think that the only non-default system setting I use is to set Rec->Play instead of Rec->Overdub.  Unfortunately I am busy tonight, but I will test tomorrow night.

Quote from: shawnb on July 30, 2012, 10:02:01 AMIn the meanwhile, it's good to know the support line worked & folks were there to help.

Yes, it is good to know.  Perhaps you could mention the "RC-300 Feature Request" thread!

Hopkins

Quote from: shawnb on July 30, 2012, 10:02:01 AMHe says he can get the exact desired behavior with Tempo Sync Off, Loop Sync Off and Measures set to FREE and track 3 is recorded last.

Well, with the rhythm off and those settings, all tracks drift out of sync. Definitely no quantisation there for tracks 1, 2 or 3.  If the rhythm is on, then quantisation is always on for *all* tracks.  So, it seems as though rhythm on/off acts as a global quantisation on/off switch.  However, it also fixes the tempo, so you cannot just turn it on and set the volume to 0; you have to play in time with the rhythm.

We definitely need a separate quantisation setting for each track, perhaps with three values: On/Off/Only on when rhythm is on.  (That last setting would mirror the current behaviour.)

Shawn, this reminds me of something you wrote about the RC-50 I think... that users got confused because you could get in a muddle with the rhythm settings and the quantisation settings.  I recall you saying that the RC-300 simplified something by comparison.  Is this a by-product of that simplification?

shawnb


Product support just confirmed the bug.  No promises on resolution - it goes thru an escalation to Boss US HQ then onto Roland Japan HQ.  As well all know, sometimes bugs just aren't fixed; sometimes they are just input into the subsequent generation of product.  Sometimes not.   

I do think the guys at tech support for the RC300 were knowledgeable & were surprisingly accessible.  They encouraged things to try & experimented on their side as well.   I must give them kudos for that - I wasn't even expecting to be able to talk with someone.   

Quote from: Hopkins on July 30, 2012, 11:27:47 AMStrange, I will check too, but if this is the case then something is wrong with *those* settings!
Hopkins - I disagree with this point - to accomplish the 'float' you must disable Tempo Sync, Loop Sync & set the Measures to FREE.  Each of these settings should otherwise force one aspect of syncing the tracks.

Quote from: Hopkins on July 30, 2012, 11:27:47 AMYes, it is good to know.  Perhaps you could mention the "RC-300 Feature Request" thread!
FYI - I did point them to these threads on this forum.   Who knows, maybe they'll join & read 'em!

Quote from: Hopkins on July 31, 2012, 07:33:34 AMWell, with the rhythm off and those settings, all tracks drift out of sync. Definitely no quantisation there for tracks 1, 2 or 3.  If the rhythm is on, then quantisation is always on for *all* tracks.  So, it seems as though rhythm on/off acts as a global quantisation on/off switch.  However, it also fixes the tempo, so you cannot just turn it on and set the volume to 0; you have to play in time with the rhythm.
All true.   You should, however, be able turn sync off for individual tracks - they give you the settings to do so, but under too many scenarios, your settings are ignored.   

So until/unless fixed, your options are:  ALL sync'd, ALL non-sync'd, or, you can mix 'em if you record the non-sync'd track first.   

Quote from: Hopkins on July 31, 2012, 07:33:34 AMShawn, this reminds me of something you wrote about the RC-50 I think... that users got confused because you could get in a muddle with the rhythm settings and the quantisation settings.  I recall you saying that the RC-300 simplified something by comparison.  Is this a by-product of that simplification?   
Yes - I think they attempted to simplify to address some erratic behavior on the RC50, and they over simplified.  The rc300 is really, really good at syncing things now.  In fact, it is far too eager to do so on the RC300, and under too many scenarios the sync logic trumps individual track settings.   This is a problem if you want to mix modes OR play the Rhythm yet not be forced to sync with the Rhythm. 
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Hopkins

#21
Quote from: shawnb on August 02, 2012, 11:20:31 AM
Quote from: Hopkins on July 30, 2012, 11:27:47 AM
Quote from: shawnb on July 30, 2012, 10:02:01 AMHe says he can get the exact desired behavior with Tempo Sync Off, Loop Sync Off and Measures set to FREE and track 3 is recorded last.
Strange, I will check too, but if this is the case then something is wrong with *those* settings!
Hopkins - I disagree with this point - to accomplish the 'float' you must disable Tempo Sync, Loop Sync & set the Measures to FREE.  Each of these settings should otherwise force one aspect of syncing the tracks.

Maybe I misunderstood his original claim - I was assuming that he meant to Tempo Sync Off, Loop Sync Off and Measures set to FREE for all three tracks.  In this case, track 3 recorded last will definitely float - but so will tracks 1 and 2!

Quote from: shawnb on August 02, 2012, 11:20:31 AMFYI - I did point them to these threads on this forum.   Who knows, maybe they'll join & read 'em!
That would be great.  As you say, it is impressive that you have spoken to someone about this, and that this person is knowledgeable and helpful!

Back to the point in hand, I have suggested that a separate "Loop Quantise" setting could be added for each track.  What do you think about this?  I think that the primary function of "Tempo Sync" is to allow the speeding up and slowing down of tracks when the phrase memory tempo changes.  In some cases you may want to use this feature even though you have a floating track.

shawnb

#22
Quote from: Hopkins on August 02, 2012, 03:16:59 PMBack to the point in hand, I have suggested that a separate "Loop Quantise" setting could be added for each track.  What do you think about this?  I think that the primary function of "Tempo Sync" is to allow the speeding up and slowing down of tracks when the phrase memory tempo changes.  In some cases you may want to use this feature even though you have a floating track.

The way I believe it is intended to work now is that Tempo Sync (a) keeps things in sync by stretching or squishing audio even as you change the patch tempo, and (b) triggers quantization so the loops are measure and time signature aligned.  If I understand your request, you'd like to split this, so the measure/time signature alignment & audio stretching are independently set - correct?   

Yes, this would give you more flexibility.   But I think there's a usability issue here...  It would add even more complexity to a topic that's already hard to grasp & easy to screw up...   "Tempo Sync" would no longer be about syncing tempos & keeping multiple tracks aligned, it'd be about stretching/squishing audio proportionally.   It would really need another name...    I do question whether the additional complexity is worth it - who & how many folks would actually use it?   Not sure...   Then try explaining to most folks who want to simply keep their tracks sync'd that in order to do so they need to keep 'Quantize' on AND 'Stretch/Squish' on AND 'Loop Sync' on.   I guarantee you most folks would be complaining why Boss made it so hard...   

While it would be more flexible, I'm not sure it's a good idea.  Ease of use is important.   The RC300 is basically a simplified 3-track DAW (6 tracks if you include overdubs) with looping capabilities and fairly sophisticated tempo processing (similar to ACID looping capabilities), designed to be operated primarily by your feet in a live situation, so it needs to be as easy as possible and hard to screw up.   

My thoughts, anyway...   
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Hopkins

Quote from: shawnb on August 02, 2012, 08:25:21 PMThe way I believe it is intended to work now is that Tempo Sync (a) keeps things in sync by stretching or squishing audio even as you change the patch tempo, and (b) triggers quantization so the loops are measure and time signature aligned.  If I understand your request, you'd like to split this, so the measure/time signature alignment & audio stretching are independently set - correct?

Yes, that is correct.  However, I had started to go off the idea while writing that last post.  I think that your comments about complexity are perfectly valid.  Also, since the Loop Sync behaviour requires quantisation to be on, quantisation cannot be an independent setting.  So, now I have changed my mind, and I think that Boss should just fix the issue of this thread by allowing loop 3 to float when set to FREE, Off, Off, even if it is recorded last.

shawnb

#24
Quote from: Hopkins on August 06, 2012, 06:40:06 PMAlso, since the Loop Sync behaviour requires quantisation to be on, quantisation cannot be an independent setting.

Actually this bugs me, as Loop Sync should not quantize/force measure alignment.   But it does.  I included this in the bug writeup to Roland.  Loop Sync should simply do what the doc says: align start times of the phrases, to the start time of the longest phrase.   

It's like all their testing was done by beats folks, and nobody really made sure these settings worked independently of each other...

FYI - text of my bug report follows:

QuoteThe problem is that there is no way to have a track 'float' independently of other tracks under certain circumstances, regardless of the settings.  By 'float', I mean, I do NOT want the same tempo, and I do not want loop start times sync'd in any way.   I do NOT want the floating track to align even at the start of ANY measures - it should be completely independent of the other 2 tracks.   

Specifically, if 2 tracks are sync'd (either tempo sync'd OR loop sync'd), AND they are recorded FIRST, THEN there is no way to record a 3rd track that 'floats' that is not sync'd to the start of measures of tracks 1/2.   Even with Loop Sync OFF, Tempo Sync OFF, and Measures=FREE for the 3rd track.   

NOTE that this works perfectly if you record the 'floating' track BEFORE you record the two sync'd tracks.   

1.  Confirm firmware is 1.02   (power on with master, rhythm & all 3 track sliders to minimum; while holding rhythm/edit & tap tempo)

2.  Confirm sytem rec pdt act is set to rec->play

3.  Create a patch with the following settings:
        Tempo 120 on master
        Turn Rhythm OFF
        Tempo 120 on all 3 tracks
        Measures = FREE on all 3 tracks
        Play Mode Loop on all 3 tracks

        Loop Sync ON on tracks 1 & 2
        Tempo Sync ON on tracks 1 & 2
        Loop Sync OFF on track 3
        Tempo Sync OFF on track 3

4. Record Track 1 (any tempo will do)
    OBSERVE that the track 1 tempo AND the patch tempo are now the same & have been set to your new tempo.  Track 3 is still at 120bpm.

5.  Leave Track 1 playing.   

6.  Record Track 3 COMPLETELY independent of Tracks 1/2.  Don't stop recording at the start of a measure.   
    Note that it will continue to record until the end of a measure - NOT desired behavior. 
    OBSERVE that the track 3 tempo has been forced to match track 1/patch tempo - ALSO NOT desired behavior.

Other notes:
  -  If you record the 'floating' track, track 3, first there is no problem. 
  -  You get this behavior if you have any track pre-recorded with Loop Sync ON or Tempo Sync ON.
  -  You also get this behavior if you have Rhythm ON.
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp