GR-55 - Tracking Solved - No bad notes

Started by Moja, April 25, 2017, 09:40:19 AM

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Moja

Market Survey:
    For many years I was extremely disappointed in the GK-x and GR-33, GR-55, Synth tracking .

     So for couple of years I/we been struggling to come up with a solution(s) to improve tracking and get rid of bad notes, goink weird sounds, poor latency ,... etc. for my own use .
   
    So my partner & I tried endless number of fixes/solutions with poor or no improvements.

   Finally recently we came up with an amazing solution . The result is simply unbelievable , Amazing better !!!!
    Crosstalk is non existent as you can see from the " Sensitivity " on GR-55 setup menue.
   Crosstalk is the difference between the string being plucked and the other Muted ( non plucked ) strings. In this case I am plucking the G string and observing how much false noise/crosstalk appears on the other 5 strings.
     I believe that typically GK-x users typically get about 35db crosstalk rejection. Possibly 45db maximum in a perfect world. Still eat not enough .
    Our crosstalk is so extremely low, that at this time, we can't measure it with our currrent instruments.

    Our question is :
   Is there a market for this and how much would you folks be willing to pay for such a solution ?
    Does it make sense for us to make this into a product and sell the solution.

    How much would folks be willing to pay for this ?  $$$$ ?
     

admin

#1
QuoteHow much would folks be willing to pay for this ?  $$$$ ?

Looking at the GK String sensitivity settings - I also experience much reduced crosstalk on stock properly installed GK-3 pickup with GR-55, VG-99, GP-10, SY-1000 simply by lowering GK String Sensitivity to 25-35 range - instead of factory 65



Adjacent string crosstalk also depends on if its magnetic hex PU based or individual piezo per string  pickup based

But most old timers know the importance of using a lower GK String Sensitivity setting (22-32), a light picking touch on these systems  and (if needed) the GK N.S. (Noise Supressor) -( as this helps greatly to minimize the dreaded crosstalk)

Mechanical induced adjacent string Crosstalk is one of the top issues for generating random notes when pursuing Guitar to MIDI, Guitar to PCM, and causes warbles on DSP Alt tunings.

And Piezo pickups often are the source,  Graphtech Ghost pickups are the  top offender.

QuoteFor many years I was extremely disappointed in the GK-x and GR-33, GR-55, Synth tracking .

Thus the importance of following and adhering to the correct GK-3 installation and setup procedure.

IMHO - Only 20% of GK-3's are setup up correctly with the host GK processor's (VG-99, GR-55, GP-10) "GK settings" set correctly too.   

alexmcginness

Well, what is it and how much does it cost?
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.

carlb

#3
Quote from: Moja on April 25, 2017, 09:40:19 AM
    Does it make sense for us to make this into a product and sell the solution.

    How much would folks be willing to pay for this ?  $$$$ ?

Depends on what the solution looks like. Will it be a smallish box with a 13-pin jack in and short 13-pin cord out? Will it require separate power?

The higher $$ you go, the more folks you leave out.

My guess at $$ versus purchasers, assuming a simple box described as above:

$50 vs.--########################
$75 vs.--#################
$100 vs.-##########
$150 vs.-#####
$200 vs.-###
$250 vs.-##

Personally, I would be "in" at even the $250 mark. It would make the GP-10 alt tunings much more universally usable for me.

If your responses look promising, you could start a "Go Fund Me" project. Take pre-orders at discount to entice funding, set a minimum total dollar amount to exceed for the project to be a "go." If you exceed the minimum, paypal pre-orders get charged, and funding comes to you.

If your approach is electronic, I might know what your approach is.  ;D Was thinking about investigating that myself, but if you guys have already done some ground-work, more than happy to leave it to you!
ES Les Paul, internal Roland GK
Boss SY-1000, Valeton Coral Amp pedal
Morningstar MC8 & MC6
QSC CP8 powered speaker

admin

#4
I imagine he's selling  a multichannel noise gate for hex pickups

QuoteIt would make the GP-10 alt tunings much more universally usable for me.

But what must one "give up" to implement said "fix" - if its a noise gate for each string, that may restrict many types of playing styles.   


carlb

Quote from: admsustainiac on April 25, 2017, 10:21:06 AM
I imagine he's selling  a multichannel noise gate for hex pickups

If it's what I'm thinking it is, not a noise gate type of solution. Would be pretty much seamless.
ES Les Paul, internal Roland GK
Boss SY-1000, Valeton Coral Amp pedal
Morningstar MC8 & MC6
QSC CP8 powered speaker

chrish

Quote  "How much would folks be willing to pay for this ?  $$$$ ?"

I'd go as high as $5. :) all kidding aside perhaps you should post a before and after MP3 sound example of a piano patch being played. Use the same phrasing, notes and tempo and do some hammer-ons and slides

mmmmgtr

#7
The picture with the sensitivity settings looks interesting but  also confusing. In the top picture the third string has a relatively high setting. In the bottom picture the third string setting is very low. My experience is that the third string is typically the lowest sensitivity setting. The bottom picture shows the lowest strings at very low settings. If this is the same instrument in both cases with this device inserted in the bottom picture picture, I'm not sure how these settings would work across all the strings. I would think the bottom strings would not even trigger at those settings. It would seem that something more than simple processing would be occurring in the settings in the bottom picture to really provide the best overall performance. I agree that it would be best to post a video of a patch being played using all strings with the techniques as described before and after. That would give the best idea how well the Improvement actually works. I'd probably be willing to pay somewhere between 50 and $100 for something that was effective in significantly improving the overall tracking performance.

carlb

He's plucking only the third string down from the top. The top picture shows the "before" crosstalk. The bottom shows the reduction of crosstalk to the other strings.
ES Les Paul, internal Roland GK
Boss SY-1000, Valeton Coral Amp pedal
Morningstar MC8 & MC6
QSC CP8 powered speaker

chrish

#9

[/quote]o
Quote from: carlb on April 25, 2017, 11:23:33 AM
He's plucking only the third string down from the top. The top picture shows the "before" crosstalk. The bottom shows the reduction of crosstalk to the other strings.
I agree that that picture is confusing because of the different string sensitivity settings that are depicted in each picture. If it was a before and after picture the string sensitivity settings should be the same for demonstration purposes.

The reduction of string crosstalk in the bottom picture is due to lower string sensitivity settings, correct?

admin

#10
Quote from: mmmmgtr on April 25, 2017, 11:17:33 AM
The picture with the sensitivity settings looks interesting but  also confusing. In the top picture the third string has a relatively high setting. In the bottom picture the third string setting is very low. My experience is that the third string is typically the lowest sensitivity setting. The bottom picture shows the lowest strings at very low settings. If this is the same instrument in both cases with this device inserted in the bottom picture picture, I'm not sure how these settings would work across all the strings. I would think the bottom strings would not even trigger at those settings. It would seem that something more than simple processing would be occurring in the settings in the bottom picture to really provide the best overall performance. I agree that it would be best to post a video of a patch being played using all strings with the techniques as described before and after. That would give the best idea how well the Improvement actually works. I'd probably be willing to pay somewhere between 50 and $100 for something that was effective in significantly improving the overall tracking performance.

Perhaps its a variation on the Bill Bax Gk preamp with +10db extra gain = lower Gk string sensitivity settings 

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=20038.msg144350#msg144350


Moja

Thanks everyone for the wonderfull postings, comments ...

    Like I said I'm a retired ex pro lead guitarist, and a retired Telecom Electronic Engineer .

   The tracking is simply amazing now.

I can' let you good folks know how this is possible yet.
    It is not any sort of a noise gate " as such a bad scheme would simply r Duce dynamic range  ( playing feel ) significantly .

  Yes, cost is a factor .  If it was free, everyone would " buy it " right ?   
   
    Cost/$$$ always depends on complexity, but ultimatly on Volumes .
   Plus how much is my/our research, time R&D,  meterial, NRE worth ?

   For 14 years I tried fiddling with mounting the GK-x and Piezo ,  fiddling with GR-33, GR-55, DI-20, VG-99 to no avail !!   Always embarrassing bad weird notes , etc c.

    All I was able to achieve was a mediocre , amateur level of tracking success .
   Sadly, No wonder serious giging Pros stay away .
   
   I would be happy to post videos with sound tracking stuff soon .  My trombone, blues harp, flutes,, pianos , etc. blow me away now !!!
       Afte Pershing countless of dead end possible solutions, prototypes, We now have one working Alpha hand built  Prototype at the moment . 

      Videos coming very soon. .
    Thanks to everyone for your support.

    Regards.
   Bob

Moja

Thanks for all the input and guesses.  I hope I do not sound disrespectful. I appreciate all comments and suggestions.

Sensitivity, IMHO,  settings on the Setup menue do not do anything for things like crosstalk !

     If you reduce Sensitivity you simply reduce " Volume " on that string and Dynamic range is reduced .

I'm sure all of you been struggling with this for many years just like me .

    This is a Serious  Improvement in real Tracking folks . Extremely easy , fool proof to install.

   A complex custom solution , never been done before solution.

If there is only a little interest in such a product, then there is no point in me/us wasting our time to try to bring this to market right ? After all,  everyone's time is valuable RIGHT ?.
    I would rather do other things with my short life.  LOL, I have way too many hobbies already.
      I/we are trying to decide weather to just keep this as a personal invention for personal use, or spend more time and more $$$ for the general Market.
    Kindest regards

   Bob

Moja

Quote from: chrish on April 25, 2017, 11:35:22 AM
o I agree that that picture is confusing because of the different string sensitivity settings that are depicted in each picture. If it was a before and after picture the string sensitivity settings should be the same for demonstration purposes.

The reduction of string crosstalk in the bottom picture is due to lower string sensitivity settings, correct?


No, Crosstalk has nothing to do with the number/# in the Sensitivity setting . It is irrelevant.  Forget the before & after # please .
     What is important  is the difference between the level of the string being plucked , and the unwanted level/sound/noise that the GR sees on the strings not being plucked .

    Regards
   Bob

admin

#14
Quote from: Moja on April 25, 2017, 12:11:47 PM

      I/we are trying to decide weather to just keep this as a personal invention for personal use, or spend more time and more $$$ for the general Market.
    Kindest regards

   Bob

Suggest review the path of others ( and dont quit your day job)

How big a market opportunity for 13 pin add-ons?
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=11430.msg83214#msg83214

And realize despite 20,000 members here at VGuitarforums  - we know its a bit of a revolving door, we only have a fraction of that number as active members at any given point in time.

Remember the Roland GK 13 pin world reflects only .0001% of the Pro M.I. marketplace. And if it were up to the accountants most of our GK 13 pin gear and GK processors would would have died years ago.


QuoteNo, Crosstalk has nothing to do with the number/# in the Sensitivity setting . It is irrelevant. 

My results are in conflict  with that statement

carlb

#15
My guess is that your initial buyer's response will be "smallish." Early adopters on this board, willing to take a risk like me. If I had to guess, perhaps 50 or so guys willing to take a risk at $125 each.

But as 'word of mouth' postings become testimonials of "hey this really works, world of difference," you'll get the pro or semi-pro users of these to order one for use, another for back-up. It won't be just the "usual posters" here, word will get out and you'll have a big production run needed.

It will really open up what the GR-55 or the GP-10 or the VG-99 can really be used for, live and in the studio.

That would be my prediction.

The nice thing about the "Go Fund Me" is that you get to decide where you're comfortable starting the project for initial funding, and then see what happens. Reach your minimum threshold, and all the initial dollars get released to you for the project.

I hope you decide to go for it. Drop a line to CodeSmart, he's done hardware runs and can give you an idea of how many initial boxes you might sell, then after that. He has a really neat couple of boxes that many of us can really use. You'll have a very similar situation on your hands.
ES Les Paul, internal Roland GK
Boss SY-1000, Valeton Coral Amp pedal
Morningstar MC8 & MC6
QSC CP8 powered speaker

admin

#16
Quote from: carlb on April 25, 2017, 12:43:45 PM
My guess is that your initial buyer's response will be "smallish." Early adopters on this board, willing to take a risk like me. If I had to guess, perhaps 50 or so guys willing to take a risk at $125 each.

But as 'word of mouth' postings become testimonials of "hey this really works, world of difference," you'll get the pro or semi-pro users of these to order one for use, another for back-up. It won't be just the "usual posters" here, word will get out and you'll have a big production run needed.

It will really open up what the GR-55 or the GP-10 or the VG-99 can really be used for, live and in the studio.

That would be my prediction.

The nice thing about the "Go Fund Me" is that you get to decide where you're comfortable starting the project for initial funding, and then see what happens. Reach your minimum threshold, and all the initial dollars get released to you for the project.

I hope you decide to go for it. Drop a line to CodeSmart, he's done hardware runs and give you an idea of how many initial boxes you might sell, then after that. He has a really neat couple of boxes that many of us can really use. You'll have a very similar situation on your hands.

If its truly groundbreaking tech, and accomplishing more than a guitar with a properly setup GK-3  .  .  .
Start a Kickstarter or IndieGogo campaign
https://www.indiegogo.com/#/picks_for_you


But I predict if you build 50 units - it might take a while before you exhaust inventory.

(ask Richard McClish how many Piezo filter boards he has sold)
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?board=177.0


whippinpost91850

If it truly does work I would be willing to give it a try. I'm all for anything to help the tracking live :)

Moja

Quote from: admsustainiac on April 25, 2017, 12:29:30 PM
Suggest review the path of others ( and dont quit your day job)

How big a market opportunity for 13 pin add-ons?
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=11430.msg83214#msg83214

And realize despite 20,000 members here at VGuitarforums  - we know its a bit of a revolving door, we only have a fraction of that number as active members at any given point in time.

Remember the Roland GK 13 pin world reflects only .0001% of the Pro M.I. marketplace. And if it were up to the accountants most of our GK 13 pin gear and GK processors would would have died years ago.


My results are in conflict  with that statement

Thanks for your kind reply/input. I agree the GK/GR 13-pin market is tiny. But very rewarding when one gets a tiny bit of success:)
    But now, I have massive success and I finally feel ecstatic .
    If one reduces Sensitivity,  on a string, but not only does it look like the other strings have lower voltage/db/sound levels, but has also reduced the db level of the wanted string by the same amount . So one does not achieve anything.
  Let me post a audio/video soon. LOL, Just trying to figure out how to mount my iPhone with Stereo Mic.

Moja

Quote from: whippinpost91850 on April 25, 2017, 01:05:56 PM
If it truly does work I would be willing to give it a try. I'm all for anything to help the tracking live :)

Kk thanks. This gives me hope ...

gumtown

Active Hex High Pass Filter?
(AHHPF) <- another new acronym.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

HAMERMAN409

I think we tend to blame the pickup for all of the crosstalk but I imagine a fair amount could happen within the hex cable as I am pretty sure that the six individual signals (though buffered by that point) are not individually shielded. If tracking improves with a very short cable versus a long cable then there is the possibility that a different cable setup could improve things.

carlb

#22
Quote from: gumtown on April 25, 2017, 01:39:09 PM
Active Hex High Pass Filter?
(AHHPF) <- another new acronym.

Interesting idea, but I doubt it.  ;D

Not that I'm 100% sure I know what they're doing. But I was trained as a EE and know a bit about crosstalk reduction, so I've probably a good guess.

Quote from: HAMERMAN409 on April 25, 2017, 01:45:33 PM
I think we tend to blame the pickup for all of the crosstalk but I imagine a fair amount could happen within the hex cable as I am pretty sure that the six individual signals (though buffered by that point) are not individually shielded. If tracking improves with a very short cable versus a long cable then there is the possibility that a different cable setup could improve things.

Capacitance per foot in the pFs, what we see in the string meter (see the pics above) is way beyond that. Cable induced crosstalk would be probably a tertiary consideration. For the piezo elements, it's so much about mechanical coupling.
ES Les Paul, internal Roland GK
Boss SY-1000, Valeton Coral Amp pedal
Morningstar MC8 & MC6
QSC CP8 powered speaker

carlb

Quote from: admsustainiac on April 25, 2017, 12:55:48 PM
<...> But I predict if you build 50 units - it might take a while before you exhaust inventory.

But that's different with the crowd-funding. You get the orders up-front, with an independent arbiter only charging pre-collected credit cards or paypals, only if/when the minimum project threshold is achieved. No big inventory to sit on while trying to sell them, the "selling" occurs before anything is ordered or built.

Of course it's up to the builder to decide how many extra to build along with the initial pre-orders. That can be tricky to figure out: too few and you'll have follow-on sales opportunity lost. Too many and you'll be sitting on inventory.
ES Les Paul, internal Roland GK
Boss SY-1000, Valeton Coral Amp pedal
Morningstar MC8 & MC6
QSC CP8 powered speaker

vtgearhead

If this device (a) worked on magnetic hex pickups and (b) made percussion and piano synth usable on my GR-55 it would be worth $125 - 150 to me.