Time for a New Injection in 13 Pin Land

Started by Rhcole, August 11, 2016, 05:38:56 PM

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alexmcginness

This thread makes me happy. Ill tell ya why. The more people become really unhappy with 13 pin tech, the more inexpensive it is to acquire the used kit that people sell off. Bill Rupert said that he would never be without his VG-99. Me too. I have 4 of them. That should hold me over until something else comes along that may be better. I have a GP-10 and a GR-55 and an old VG-88 that are all hardwired in my studio, but since the 99 is my main road box and has been since 2007, I need spares just in case one gets  irreparably damaged. So far Im still using the first unit I bought in 2007. Its got a few dings and F3 doesnt work optimally but its still doin the job better than anything else out there.
   So my 13 pin compatriots, dump your gear and return to your 1/4 tech. Leave the fragileness of Roland cables with the lousy ends to us weird folk that carry spares to gigs and have the common sense to be extra cautious with delicate kit. Show your dissatisfaction by pouring a glut of used 13 pin dinosaur stuff on to EBay for the eccentric to snatch up and use, and encourage others to do so just to teach Roland a lesson (after all they do listen to all of you...right?.) Get totally frustrated at the inability of the few 13 pinners, to educate the majority of 1/4 jackers to the benefits of GK guitaring. Be influenced by guitar folk that gasp when they see a GK pickup and wart mounted on a guitar like art folk would do if they saw a moustache painted on to a Mona Lisa...OHHHH THE HUMANITY!!!!!!!
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.

Elantric

#51
QuoteSo my 13 pin compatriots, dump your gear and return to your 1/4 tech. Leave the fragileness of Roland cables with the lousy ends to us weird folk that carry spares to gigs and have the common sense to be extra cautious with delicate kit. Show your dissatisfaction by pouring a glut of used 13 pin dinosaur stuff on to EBay for the eccentric to snatch up and use, and encourage others to do so just to teach Roland a lesson (after all they do listen to all of you...right?.) Get totally frustrated at the inability of the few 13 pinners, to educate the majority of 1/4 jackers to the benefits of GK guitaring. Be influenced by guitar folk that gasp when they see a GK pickup and wart mounted on a guitar like art folk would do if they saw a moustache painted on to a Mona Lisa...OHHHH THE HUMANITY!!!!!!!
That horse already left the barn
Before the selling fees became so high, on ebay you could search "GK" or "VG" or "GR"  in the music gear  / pro audio sections any given day for past several years and locate amazing deals on gently used Roland GK 13 pin gear ( Guitar, Pickups, Processors)   - thats how I acquired most of my Roland 13 pin gear.

Recently acquired a used GR-33 and it came with four 30 foot high quality 13 pin cables, and a GK-2A and a gig bag. I think I paid $220

The GR-33 has sounds that in many cases are superior to the GR-55  - like the Sax , and the Pianos actually trigger with much less glitching compared to GR-55
( the GR-33 remains in Steve Vai's studio as a tool today) and GR-33 works great as a mutitimbral MIDI tone module for use with the Fishman FTP
I use the old first gen black iConnectMIDI box as a USB Host to 5 pin MIDI converter box.   


Recently I was debugging MIDI gear with a GR-33 as MIDI Tone Module, and we discovered the GR-33's internal Sound engine can accept simultaneous signal input from either the GK 13 pin input jack or the 5 pin MIDI Input jack at the same time.

That opens many doors for live use with an external MIDI sequencer i

whippinpost91850

Yeah! I think it's time to break out my GR33 again.

alexmcginness

  Great!!!! The more cheap discarded tech like this that comes on to the market the quicker the improvements come.

   Back in the day there were these silver boxes, the 303 bassline. Roland wound up selling them to dealers like the one I use to work at back then, for $25 a piece and still they had trouble clearing the inventory. Nobody wanted these fragile hard to program boxes.
  You know what happend next. Folk with a lot of creativity and not much money bought these boxes and despite the limitiations in them, created hit music and the boxes became sought after workhorses. Since they were rare and now expensive, Roland started re issuing them in new improved format to meet a new market demand.
   So I say again to all those that are posting their dis satisfaction with your fragile 99s and the rest of your 13 pin boxes, cables and pickups.... dump them!!!!!!... and encourage everyone else to do the same and re adopt the 1/4 inch mentality. Get pissed off and stop using this ineffective tech. Let the people with little money but buckets of creativity pick them up on the used market for peanuts and start making them popular again so that we can pay inflated prices for the re issues. The method has  worked in the past with the 808, 909 and the 303...it should work again with these GK boxes. If the method aint broke.....
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.

Elantric

#54


I know the "BaseLine" TB-303 well  - back in 1982 my roommate  purchased one.  I purchased the companion "Drumatix" TR-606
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roland_TR-606

Indeed , original TB-303 go for big bucks today



chrish

It's interesting that brand new vg99's enter the market every so often. There's two brand new ones on ebay right now for $1499. However, they have been for sale there for a while.

Elantric

#56
If you look and have patience  you can find them for $500

Ebay recently raised the seller fees and that cleared out most of the deals and drove most folks to Reverb.com or Craigslist

alexmcginness

Quote from: Elantric on August 19, 2016, 08:15:50 AM
If you look and have patience  you can find them for $500

Yup, Just check local Craigs list and Kijiji. Theres a lot of people that arent willing to spend the time to find out what these boxes can do. Frankly Im lovin the fact as it makes it easy to scoop this " digital sounding" " hard to program" " Fragile cable" technology up for a song. Happy hunting.
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.

chrish

#58
These boxes do have a learning curve, however that knowledge gained builds upon itself thereby making the learning curve easier for the next box. For example, having been a early vg8 user, knowing how simple pitch shift adjustments alter the patch, paved the way to start digging in on the vg99.

It also helps to study some of the forum patchs, such as smash's use of the control assigns to wave and internal pedals in order to modulate  string level and pan. Those simple modulation adjustments provide lots of movement within the sound. That's a lot of what synths are about because static sounds are annoying to our ears.

Of course those fragile 13 pin cords make the process painful, ;-) so i agree, dump 'em until new more complex tech comes along that many people won't want to purchase either. If they won't purchase 13 pin gear because of complexity, why would they purchase even more complex tech?

One other point. I'm guessing that a 13 pin cord carrying analog signal voltage adds some sort of filtering similar to a 1/4 cable. So the ad  converter in the box sees a similar analog signal that has passed through a cord.

Would making that ad conversion  at the guitar just further 'remove' the beauty of the analog signal from the final tone?  Will the new boxes have a 13 pin cord simulation feature?

Elantric

#59
QuoteSo the ad  converter in the box sees a similar analog signal that has passed through a cord. Would making that ad conversion  at the guitar just further 'remove' the beauty of the analog signal from the final tone

Ask Variax Owners who often use the digtial "VDI" cable for their normal pickup signal

In essence the signal flow of VG-99 vs Variax is the same

Variax just places A/D>DSP>D/A inside the guitar

Tyler Variax with its mix of DSP model and real pickups serves the purpose direct comparison of real vs DSP modeling comparison. Same with a GC-1 Strat

Tyler JTV-59 Mods thread
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=9291.msg62105#msg62105

Might ask why add all these magnetic coil select solutions to a JTV-59 Variax? I'm rather picky about my tone, and clean Palm Muting tone is essential for my Surf Band, and despite the progress, none of these Guitar Modelling solutions  we discuss today can duplicate the exact tone I need to achieve clean Palm Muting tone   - (think Astronauts "Baja, or Elliot Easton with "The Cars" ) for the sound I use regularly 


While I have over 7800 posts on this forum about DSP Guitar Modeling, In 2013 despite all the breakthroughs I remain in the camp that still considers playing through a DSP guitar pickup  / Amp modeller remains in the same realm as thinking an iPad pinball game can duplicate the real deal Bally PinBall Game  -  If you close your eyes and imagine really hard, you "almost" get in the same ballpark as the sound of playing the real guitar, thru the real Amp   -  but as a player I observe there is always a 2 dimensional (lack of third dimension) quality on these DSP modeling systems we discuss, that a player with good ears and playing technique will be able to pick out its faults compared to playing a guitar with real Mag pickups feeding a genuine tube amp. 

But bulk of Listening audience may never hear the difference.     






HecticArt

Quote from: Elantric on August 19, 2016, 07:57:13 AM


I know the "BaseLine" TB-303 well  - back in 1982 my roommate  purchased one.  I purchased the companion "Drumatix" TR-606
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roland_TR-606

Indeed , original TB-303 go for big bucks today




I keep hoping that I'll find a 303 at a yard sale or a secondhand store some day.
I probably stand a better chance at hitting the lottery.

chrish

I'm not familar with the variax system. So after the conversion, an analog signal still goes down the cord to the amp?

Elantric

#62
Quote^i'm not familar with that system. So after the conversion, an analog signal still goes down the cord to the amp?

On Tyler Variax the A/D is inside the guitar. If you use the VDI cable  a digitized (post A/D) version of the magnetic pickups signal can travel on the VDI RJ-45 Ethercon cable as AES/EBU (PCM 24bit@48kHz) format to feed the HD500 or Helix or Firehawk or Firehawk 1500 amp
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=9688.0


Its clean - but "lacks the mojo" of the normal analog connection ( the following are impacted: dynamics, tone, reaction to controls, play feel )

I used to try to explain the similarities in signal flow of VG-99 vs Variax to the folks at Line6 forum -( I'm "Stevekc" over there) - but they try to interject:
" But my Guitar Center Rep says the Roland GK-3 MIDI pickup converts everything to 13 pin MIDI - so its nothing like a Variax" ::)   

http://line6.com/support/forum/39-james-tyler-variax-guitars-workbench-hd/

access to service manuals for each processor (Roland vs Line-6) reveals the similarities.


Both employ:

Hex pickup > A/D > DSP > D/A

its just that Line-6 puts it all inside the guitar.

But convenience trumps tone for many guitarists.


chrish

#63
I agree about the tone of an analog vs a modeled tone which is why i always run a parallel analog signal. In the current 13 pin system for straight guitar tone, i take the guitar out from the vg or gr synth unit and run it to an analog preamp fx unit.

Then the combined analog and digital converted signal paths go to a tube/transister power amp. 

Elantric

#64
QuoteI agree about the tone of an analog vs a modeled tone which is why i always run a parallel analog signal. In the current 13 pin system for guitar tone, i take the guitar out from the vg or gr synth unit and run it to an analog preamp fx unit.

Then the combined analog and digital signal paths go to a tube/transister power amp.

Exactly - i do the same!

my current project is converting a JTV-59  - remove the Line-6 DSP board and replace with  Antares ATG internal kit and provide an analog output for the mag pickups  -at times  I want to combine the DSP tones with the normal mag pickup signal.

Today's  DSP Guitar modelers are close, and sound great  - until you compare it with the "real deal" !

whippinpost91850

Is there a way to get the normal mag pickups through to output on an ATG-1

Elantric

#66


Using the Mod that Thomas Nordegg and Ed Clothier did to my ATG-1 - its simply a hard wired 1/4" "Normal Guitar Output" jack fed from pin#7 of the Gk input jack

Requires a third party A/B selector box to choose ATG1 vs normal guitar signal.

Its easier on the ATG internal luthier kit  - there is a push pull pot to disable the ATG DSP modeling and feed the common 1/4" guitar output jack     

whippinpost91850

Yeah, I been trying to figure which way to go as I have both. I was thinkin of doing the same thing with ATG-1 I did with my GR55 and use remote switches on My pedal board.

And mount the ATG-1 back behind me with my GR55 and Kemper

I'll post pictures Sunday of what I have already done with GR and KPA and pedal board

Elantric

Well this explains why no response from Roland / Boss
Gary Lenaire (former head of Boss US now works for Fishman
https://www.linkedin.com/in/gary-lenaire-55176554

as I start humming Theme from Exodus"

Rhcole

I knew about this after a conversation with Fishman in June but didn't feel comfortable disclosing it. Fishman is becoming the center hub of hex development, or so it appears.

Now_And_Then

Quote from: Rhcole on August 21, 2016, 10:14:30 PM
I knew about this after a conversation with Fishman in June but didn't feel comfortable disclosing it. Fishman is becoming the center hub of hex development, or so it appears.

What are they developing?

alexmcginness

I dont think Roland will abandon 13 pin tech and if they do that will mean a glut of Roland tech on the market for next to nothing. Its a win win. So if they continue, we get new stuff, hopefully with new features and if not theres money to be made when the dealers chop them out at a heavy discount. I love this company!!!!!
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.

chrish

^Is the goal one vg99 for each string?  hex processing power to the max.;-)

Elantric

#73
QuoteI dont think Roland will abandon 13 pin tech

IMHO - Severel key events tell my gut that Roland / Boss already has abandoned further development of the GK 13 pin hardware They have already discontinued the GC-1 guitar, and internal GK kits (specifically the Bass version ) are getting hard to purchase

Once existing inventory vanishes for new GR-55's  & GP-10's  thats probably the end of the line, and there will be no announcement other than a "discontinued" text on the GP-10, & GR-55 product pages sometime in 2018 

Thanks to Roland's mishandled marketing of GK 13 pin products in the western world, and never attempting to convey to US dealers the advantages of the GP-10 / VG-99 compared to Tyler Variax / HD500  - only 1% of guitarists are remotely interested in Roland GK 13  technology.

Time to dust off my design notes for the RackVax I co designed with Cory



chrish

^And roland did not include a 13 pin in on the sy-300, further supports that opinion.