GP-10 Alt Tunings using Acoustic SIM

Started by MichiganMike, August 23, 2015, 08:51:12 AM

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MichiganMike

I'm an acoustic guitar performer and picked up a Godin XTSa and GP-10 so that I might relieve the need to retune ("endlessly") across my set list containing 22 songs using up to 7 different tunings and capo positions. The remaining 30+ use standard tunings. I have one acoustic guitar and the Godin. More guitars is out of the question.

The end result with the GP-10 has been less than inspiring.

Using the Acoustic Amp model with any of the instruments (guitar, reso, banjo, etc) works great provided I use standard tuning. However, when open tunings that affect three or more strings are used, it sounds like acoustic trauma rather than bliss coming out of the headphones and the speakers. Lower strings are worse than upper. Using acoustic guitar models makes the problem incredibly worse in open tunings.

The Godin XTSa is set up to perfection. Physical intonation is great all the way up to the 22nd fret. String height is within tolerances, the 13-pin cable is new, and the battery is fresh and the digital intonation is setup correctly on the GP-10. I've also set up the levels on individual strings.

No filtering except NS and the Amp model has been moved around the chain making no difference.

Please share your experiences. I would really like to hear if anyone has "solved" this.
Godin xtSA, 1978 Fender Telecaster, Martin XC1T, Gibson Dobro, Trailwood Acoustic Bass
TC-Helicon VoiceLive 3 Extreme, Antares ATG-1, Boss GP-10, BeatBuddy,  Focusrite, MOTU, FL-Studio Producer (all licenses)

Jim Williams

it is all in the GK setup and a filter buffer can help. I had some trouble when using alt tuneings and a more detailed setup in the GK settings helped out. Do not use someone elses suggested settings you need to set it up to match your guitar. If you have more than one guitar do more than one setup.
Skype: (upon Request)

Everything from modeling to the real deal, my house looks like a music store.

Elantric

#2
If you require the best DSP CREATED alternate turnings, might consider the Antares ATG-1 which at this hour works much better than any Roland/Boss product.

But try my xtSA settings.

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3912.50

During the Christmas break I finally had some time to play with the GR-55 and my new Godin xTSA RMC pickup guitar.

I'm using these settings below with much success using my Godin xTSA (RMC) and stock GR-55 (rev 1.50 firmware ) and Boss GP-10

Thanks Jim Williams!



On both my xTSA'a - the COSM Modleling sounds most excellent .

This is AFTER I follow Jim Williams Piezo Setup.

--
In System, Set the GK PU type to:
PU type ;  PIEZO R
Scale :  ST
PU phase : NORMAL
PU direction : NORMAL
S1/S2 position : NORMAL
MORM PU gain : 0 dB
PIEZO TONE  LOW  :    -2
PIEZO TONE HIGH  :   +3

"DIS"
10.0 mm all strings (does not matter GR-55 ignores this for all Piezo PU selections)

"SEN"
Set the sensitivities for all strings to "50" average (+/-5  - that is all my strings have sensitivity set in the range between 45-55 .

"VEL"
Velocity Dynamics :  2
Play-Feel         :  2 (may vary depending on how you play synth tones)
Low-Velocity Cut  :  8-9

"NUA"
Nuance Dynamics   :  4
Nuance Trim       :  4

"DOW"
Shift   :   0
===============


Be sure you are using Headphones when forming opinion on the sounds  / patches of your Roland gear.!!


Ive voiced prolifically on this forum my preference for GK-3 type pickups for use with Roland COSM Modeling systems , but there have been some minor incremental developments  / improvements in the RMC electronics over the years. I admit bulk of my prior opinions on RMC piezo pickups were based upon a 1998 era RMC Piezo Polydrive 1 install in a Les Paul feeding  a Roland VG-8, where I could always "hear" the underlying RMC piezo characteristics in the VG-8's output, regardless of any patch or tweaking.

In contrast, the GR-55 with firmware 1.50 , and using Jim Williams Piezo setup suggestions

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3965.msg53317#msg53317

and string sensitivity at an average of "50" for all strings with this new Godin xTSA - the GR-55 sounds wonderful. True the GR-300 preset still has low frequency handling noises and random noises, (the optional RMC OPT-01 sub filter board should cure this) -


In context when using only the 13 pin cable. The Godin's Normal Mag PU"S (Or Mono Piezo Signal  - depending on the guitar volume control settings) will  feed pin #7, on the 13 pin cable where the GR-55 can act as a "GT-100 like" COSM Amp Modeler. All audio output occurs at the GR-55 Stereo Output jacks.
My first order of business was modifying ALL GR-55 User Presets to enable the use of the Godin's Normal pickups and enable use of the three way "Guitar / Mix / Synth" switch on the Godin - and for me, thats where the magic of the GR-55 happens. Many factory GR-55 patches become 300% more useful.
For example, one GR-55 Xylophone patch had a great multitap delay that when used with only straight normal pickups becomes a wonderful world of great tone where the Roland COSM Amp modelling and effects can be appreciated.

I do think the only way to go with the GR-55 is to use an external stereo Volume pedal, and then dedicate the on board GR-55 Expression pedal to "pan / morph" different effects / tones within a single patch. I also find that the xTSA and RMC Piezos and GR-55's Acoustic Modeling sounds very excellent !

But I also notice that with little effort, palm Muting IS possible and get very close to the sound of the Normal pickups.  Finally having a working  "Guitar / Mix / Synth" switch on the Godin  allows instant verification and reality check on the COSM Guitar Modeling and for me opens up worlds of usefulness for the GR-55.     

MichiganMike

#3
Elantric,

Appreciate your input.
Yes, have tweaked this thing in many ways and notice that my preferred settings for the acoustic work on the GP-10 are not very far off those recommended.

I'll play around with the velocity dynamics as those seem the furthest off.

I consider myself moderately proficient at setting these things up and have had a great deal of frustration on this experience with Roland/BOSS. In addition to the Acoustic open tunings I always wanted to use the USB MIDI out to trigger chord changes (on the open tunings) to the VoiceLive 3x. The need to have a PC/Mac/Linux/Android/Raspberry between the GP-10 and other effects boxes just to get the GP-10 MIDI signal was the frustrating point.  So much so there's a new Antares coming on Tuesday to test.

Quote from: Elantric on August 23, 2015, 11:16:10 AM
--
In System, Set the GK PU type to:
PU type ;  PIEZO R
Scale :  ST
PU phase : NORMAL
PU direction : NORMAL
S1/S2 position : NORMAL
MORM PU gain : 0 dB
PIEZO TONE  LOW  :    -2
PIEZO TONE HIGH  :   +3

"DIS"
10.0 mm all strings (does not matter GR-55 ignores this for all Piezo PU selections)

"SEN"
Set the sensitivities for all strings to "50" average (+/-5  - that is all my strings have sensitivity set in the range between 45-55 .

"VEL"
Velocity Dynamics :  2
Play-Feel         :  2 (may vary depending on how you play synth tones)
Low-Velocity Cut  :  8-9

"NUA"
Nuance Dynamics   :  4
Nuance Trim       :  4

"DOW"
Shift   :   0
===============
Be sure you are using Headphones when forming opinion on the sounds  / patches of your Roland gear.!!
Godin xtSA, 1978 Fender Telecaster, Martin XC1T, Gibson Dobro, Trailwood Acoustic Bass
TC-Helicon VoiceLive 3 Extreme, Antares ATG-1, Boss GP-10, BeatBuddy,  Focusrite, MOTU, FL-Studio Producer (all licenses)

Elantric

#4
QuoteThe need to have a PC/Mac/Linux/Android/Raspberry between the GP-10 and other effects boxes just to get the GP-10 MIDI signal was the frustrating point.  So much so there's a new Antares coming on Tuesday to test.

read all about Antares ATG-1 here.

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=13067.0

I control it wirelessly with the Quiccosound mi.1 and an iPad running MIDI Designer
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=15748.0

QuoteIn addition to the Acoustic open tunings I always wanted to use the USB MIDI out to trigger chord changes (on the open tunings) to the VoiceLive 3x.

Might need a different approach - unlike the GP-10, the  Antares ATG-1 lacks any Guitar to MIDI function  - use the ATG-1 analog output to feed the VL-3 Guitar input.

MichiganMike

Thanks for the links.

After realizing the Antares doesn't have a guitar midi communication I was less impressed with that part of it as an "ideal solution" with the VL3x. But in contrast to the GP-10, that itself uses non-standard guitar-midi and open tuning algorithms that don't sound well balanced, it's worth testing the unit.

What I'm looking forward to is what seems like vastly improved open tuning electronics and DSP algorithms. Based on the videos and quality feedback about the entire "tuning quality", I'm convinced the Antares was designed specifically for the music I'm doing and the quality I want. If the quality is there, the VL3x will eat it up and my harmonies will easily follow any open tuning chord or fret position.

Yes! I saw that m1.i Bluetooth solution. Wicked. I have the website as a favorite and a spare iPad 2 to use with it. My preference however, would be a Bluetooth solution for the PC, using the same hardware would work. The main reason is the PC laptop is fitted out with MIDI, DAW, BeatBuddy and the VL3 Editor software.

I understand that they have someone working on it. In the meantime the iPad will do just fine.

Thanks again!
I'll look around for your feedback on the Antares.
Godin xtSA, 1978 Fender Telecaster, Martin XC1T, Gibson Dobro, Trailwood Acoustic Bass
TC-Helicon VoiceLive 3 Extreme, Antares ATG-1, Boss GP-10, BeatBuddy,  Focusrite, MOTU, FL-Studio Producer (all licenses)

MichiganMike

GP-10 sold on Ebay.

I need higher standards than what Roland offers for open-tuned acoustic guitar simulation.
GP-10s are excellent units and don't get me wrong, it's a great generalist kind of guitar processor.

Good Luck
Godin xtSA, 1978 Fender Telecaster, Martin XC1T, Gibson Dobro, Trailwood Acoustic Bass
TC-Helicon VoiceLive 3 Extreme, Antares ATG-1, Boss GP-10, BeatBuddy,  Focusrite, MOTU, FL-Studio Producer (all licenses)

simon t

Have you considered Tronical Tune Plus?
I am an acoustic player using plenty of alt tunings and since the upgrade to Plus I find the system works great.
It now has a capo mode, custom tuning 'snap' and per string pitch correction among other enhancments.

It's also on sale at the moment.....

http://store.tronical-components.com/


whippinpost91850

Does anyone know if the tuners are different on the Plus or just the CPU. I have the Gibson MineTune And found them too slow and would like to just change the CPU they're offering for $99. Tronical doesn't appear to have a contact for questions, on their site

Elantric

#9
If I worked in a Trio the Tronical Tune would be close enough.

After using the Tronical Tune for a couple years - I'm removing them from most of my guitars. Just too sluggish and inaccurate ( ie tuning is always +/- a few cents, and always random)

http://store.tronical-components.com/

whippinpost91850

have you tried the new Tronical Tune Plus ?

simon t

@ whippinpost91850 - As far as i am aware the tuners are the same. I DO know your MineTune will work with the Plus CPU.
Here's Tronical support

http://www.tronical.com/support-ticket/


@elantric - have you used the plus system? It's a vast improvement. I think you would be pleasantly surprised.

whippinpost91850

Thanks Simon, I will probably give it a try

simon t

Quote from:  Elantric
Of course "snap" is the sound the G string will make when attempting to set the "new capo mode"  to the 5th fret.

Haven't had that issue.

GuitarBuilder

Quote from: Elantric on August 24, 2015, 02:35:27 PM
If I worked in a Trio the Tronical Tune would be close enough.
After using the Tronical Tune for a couple years - I'm removing them from most of my guitars. Just too sluggish and inaccurate ( ie tuning is always +/- a few cents, and always random)

Since most folks in the audience are likely to only perceive a deviation of more than 25 cents, that should not be much of a problem, right?

I've got a fairly recent Tronical Tune on my R9 and it seems to get the tuning right, usually within about 10 seconds.
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

GuitarBuilder

Great one - I've got the pedal version on my board!
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

Elantric

QuoteGreat one - I've got the pedal version on my board!

same here -but I find this new TC "PolyTune Clip" to be more accurate and faster to use than my Peterson SC-1


mccorp

Thanks for these suggestions. The alt tunings are a challenge which I hope to overcome to my satisfaction.
Sometimes you have to let go of the melody and focus on the rhythm

mccorp

#18
I just adjusted the GK settings a la Jim Williams Piezo Setup and found the alt tuning for Eb and D to be excellent for the Martin and Gibson acoustic patches but less desirable for  electric strat patches I have. I am most encouraged by the results. But don't understand why the difference in alt tuning for different patches.

Sometimes you have to let go of the melody and focus on the rhythm

mccorp

After reading the suggestions here I have found that the Alt Tuning function (Eb and D) works well with my XTSA using my GP-10 patches if the sensitivity is set to zero (0) for each string. A relief!
Sometimes you have to let go of the melody and focus on the rhythm