Boss RC-300 F.A.Q.

Started by shawnb, January 27, 2012, 09:05:03 PM

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tekrytor

#25
Another option regarding 2 and 3...
If you're using a mixer, you can try putting the looper in the mixer FX loop and route whatever mixer inputs you want to the looper. You could also try putting the click track on its own mixer channel to set its level independently.
SY-300/BeatBuddy/VoiceLive 3/GR-55(v1.50)/33/1/50/700/VGA-7/V-Bass, Yam-G10, GPK-4, DIY X-Bee HighlyLiquidCPU "Cozy-Lil-Footie", FCB-1010, other MIDI stuff, Godin Freeway SA and various other GK equipped controllers, Sonar X1, Audacity, KXstudio, Misc devices

tekrytor

Quote from: Elantric on March 30, 2012, 11:00:08 AM
Another software looper is AmbiLoop
http://www.ambiloop.com
and there are now dozens of iPad IOS based Loopers too ( best with an Alesis I/O Dock).

I love Ambiloop. I use it with my FCB1010 as controller and it works quite well. It has a great MIDI map tool that lets you assign almost anything MIDI to control most all of its parameters. I have two pedals on the FCB programmed for NEXT and PREVIOUS tracks so I can jump between all eight tracks, and other pedals programmed for record, pause, stop, reset. It's well supported and the best part...it's free. It needs a fairly modern PC and a good audio interface to reduce latency to acceptable levels. It is very a powerful, intuitive and user friendly looper with some very nice features...IMO.
SY-300/BeatBuddy/VoiceLive 3/GR-55(v1.50)/33/1/50/700/VGA-7/V-Bass, Yam-G10, GPK-4, DIY X-Bee HighlyLiquidCPU "Cozy-Lil-Footie", FCB-1010, other MIDI stuff, Godin Freeway SA and various other GK equipped controllers, Sonar X1, Audacity, KXstudio, Misc devices

geormiet

thanks for the response, very helpful!   

not using a mixer, but adding the count in for the rhythm will actually solve a bunch of problems, so i'll figure out how to do that.

I never even considered putting the KP3 at the top of my chain, but that's actually not a bad idea, I'll try it out.

What about the midi connection with KP3 and rc300?  What sort of things can i do by hooking up the midi connection between these two devices?   


shawnb

Quote from: geormiet on March 31, 2012, 08:59:24 PM
What about the midi connection with KP3 and rc300?  What sort of things can i do by hooking up the midi connection between these two devices?   

I don't know what MIDI capabilities the KP3 has.   I'd start by reading that manual 2-3x...   These things tend to make more sense the second time around...

The RC300 can send and receive PC (program change) and CC (continuous controller) MIDI messages.   The RC300 is good at being a tempo master, but it is horrible at being a tempo slave.  So if you want tempos sync'd, the RC300 needs to drive the timing & the KP3 would need to be the timing slave.   

At the very least, keeping the tempo sync'd between the two devices usually makes things holds together much cleaner.  When your FX are not sync'd to your tempo, the FX can sound all wrong.  It's where I'd start.

Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Hopkins

#29
Blimey, an actual person had to do something before I was allowed to post here, or even to have "more than 3 page views per day"!

I bought the RC-300 a few days ago and have racked up half a dozen hours of playing and fiddling so far.  Firstly:

Quote from: SLICK on March 30, 2012, 05:38:52 AM
As far as I have seen none of the current gen of Floor loopers really allow you to lay down a couple of bars of Bass n Drums then seamlessly extend that with a 8 bar chord vamp and finally solo until your fingers hurt without either predefining the lengths or bending down to twiddle with a knob or button.

No - what you describe is possible with the RC-300, but there are different modes of operation which cause different types of behaviour, and there are limitations.  However, to do this (and assuming that we begin with default settings):

1) Change the system setting REC Pdl Act to "Rec->Play", as per page 33 of the manual (available here: http://www.roland.com/support/article/?q=manuals&p=RC-300)
2) Set each of the three tracks to have "FREE" measures, as per page 17 of the manual (actually, for this specific example, only Track 2 needs to be set to "FREE")
3) Hit Rec/Play on Track 1 to record your "Bass n Drums"
4) Hit Rec/Play on Track 2 to record your "8 bar chord vamp" (this simultaneously stops recording but begins to loop playback of Track 1)
5) Hit Rec/Play on Track 2 again to cease recording but continue playing the loops while you "solo until your fingers hurt"

Notes:

- Yes, steps (1) and (2) require twiddling knobs, but you set all this up in advance.  (1) is a global setting and (2) can be stored in a "Phrase Memory" (i.e. a group of settings for a song/performance), and the Phrase Memories can be named and then selected using only the pedals.
- If you do not change the setting in (1) then, in step (5), hitting Rec/Play will continue to loop but you will also continue to record over track 2.  I think that this default setting is a hangover from simpler looper days.
- The length of your recording in track 2 must be a multiple of the length of the recording in track 1.
- By extension, if you later decide to record something on track 3, it must be a multiple of the length of the longest track recorded yet, unless you turn loop sync off (which, in general, you don't want to do).  I have to say, this is the functionality I am most disappointed with because it limits options for syncopation.  That said, you can work around it by recording longer loops and, in the grand scheme of things, it is a minor inconvenience.  (For example, if I want to record a 3 bar riff and a 2 bar riff and play them together in a syncopated manner, I either have to turn off loop sync, in which case everything is fine until I want to stop and start a loop, or I have to record one of the riffs as a 6 bar loop, and then it becomes a multiple of the other and everything is fine.  It becomes more cumbersome if you have a 4 bar and a 3 bar riff, because then you need to extend one to 12 bars in length...)

Anyway, I digress.  I just wanted to point out that the RC-300 probably does exactly what you need it too.  I am very happy with it so far but, as another user pointed out, loopers seem to be evolving quite slowly.  I think this is because, when you start to think about it, things rapidly become quite complicated!  The RC-300 seems to have struck quite a nice balance between usability and flexibility.

I have a question now.  I intend to compose midi drum tracks, played back by a sequencer, to which I will play along.  I asked Roland tech support about this and they said:

QuoteThe RC300 will recieve the MIDI clock from the sequencer and this would be the best way to get your custom drum track.

As the MIDI messages are set standard they should instantly talk to each other and sync the timing for you.

However, what I read here suggests otherwise...  Why is the RC-300 "horrible at being a tempo slave"?  I have no experience with midi, and the only interpretation that I can think of is that it doesn't work.  Presumably the tempo of the RC-300 is prone to behave erratically if behaving as a slave, and I can imagine that would cause catastrophic results mid performance!  Am I right with this assumption?  Also, would I be right if I assumed that, as long as I am not changing tempo mid song, I could quite happily make the midi drum sequencer a slave to the RC-300 and achieve what I am trying to do?

Thanks in advance!

Brent Flash

Welcome to the group Hopkins!  :)

Hopkins


shawnb

Quote from: Hopkins on April 02, 2012, 04:30:06 PM
However, what I read here suggests otherwise...  Why is the RC-300 "horrible at being a tempo slave"?  I have no experience with midi, and the only interpretation that I can think of is that it doesn't work.  Presumably the tempo of the RC-300 is prone to behave erratically if behaving as a slave, and I can imagine that would cause catastrophic results mid performance!  Am I right with this assumption?  Also, would I be right if I assumed that, as long as I am not changing tempo mid song, I could quite happily make the midi drum sequencer a slave to the RC-300 and achieve what I am trying to do?
Welcome Hopkins!

First, the manual is very explicit - it will only slave to another RC300.   (See pages 34 & 38-39).   

Second, I didn't believe 'em...  I figured they were sandbagging...   So I tried configuring it to be a driven using my GR55 as a timing master & couldn't get it to work.   I can drive my VG99 from my GR55, but not my RC300.  Hence my conclusion & report-out above.  Maybe my wording could be better - I couldn't get it to work at all.   

Why they would make it so it's ONLY external master would be another RC300 is beyond me.  (For that matter, HOW they could engineer it that way...)

You're welcome to try & report back!   Always possible I missed something.   These things happen...

Given the RC300's STOP pedals all work as tap-tempo, I have made my RC300 the timing master.   Works great, you might want to consider that approach.   

Shawn
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Hopkins

Thanks for the references.  On re-reading it does not leave much room for doubt - especially when, in the section for synchronising two RC-300s, they state "It is not possible to
change the phrase memory tempo of the slave unit (the unit whose MIDI Sync setting is "MIDI")."  If another RC-300 cannot change the tempo of an RC-300 then there is even less chance of any other device doing so!

Referring to something else I wrote above:

Quote from: Hopkins(For example, if I want to record a 3 bar riff and a 2 bar riff and play them together in a syncopated manner, I either have to turn off loop sync, in which case everything is fine until I want to stop and start a loop, or I have to record one of the riffs as a 6 bar loop, and then it becomes a multiple of the other and everything is fine.  It becomes more cumbersome if you have a 4 bar and a 3 bar riff, because then you need to extend one to 12 bars in length...)

I discovered a work around if you have a spare track.  Suppose, as in the example above, I would like to play a 3 bar riff and a 4 bar riff which will loop around in a syncopated manner, and which I would like to start and stop but always keep "snapped" together.  If I set track one to 3 measures, track two to 4 measures and track three to 12 measures then I can achieve this, even though track three is never "used".  You can stop and start each track independently and they will jump back into the mix, looping seamlessly in their syncopated goodness.  The only caveat is that, when you restart a track, unless you keep time in your head, there is no guarantee that it will begin at the beginning because, internally, the RC-300 is looping over 12 bars.  It will, however, be perfectly in time.

It is a shame that there is not a mode to allow this to be done on the fly.  As far as I can tell, it would simply be another behaviour type that could be selected instead on a track's Loop Sync setting; "On", "Off" and "Synco", perhaps?!  In fact, I doubt it would take much effort for this to be implemented - what are Boss/Roland like at updating the firmware of their equipment?  Would it be worth submitting this somewhere as a suggestion?

Another possibility would be having a "Memory: Measures" setting along with the existing Memory: Tempo setting, which would give the maximum number of bars on a phrase memory and would have the same effect as the track 3 setting in my example above.  Then at least you could use track 3 for a shorter loop too.

geormiet

Quote from: tekrytor on March 31, 2012, 12:13:56 PM
Another option regarding 2 and 3...
If you're using a mixer, you can try putting the looper in the mixer FX loop and route whatever mixer inputs you want to the looper. You could also try putting the click track on its own mixer channel to set its level independently.



I discovered a rough solution without adding a mixer.   I set rhythm to main, and the amp goes in the sub out.  Plugging in headphones now, it's perfect, I hear the rhythm, input, and tracks on the headphones.   And the amp plays everything but the rhythm.

Drawbacks:
- can't control the volume using the master level knob. 

- can't figure out how to record to laptop in this mode without the rhythm track being heard.  Even after going to sys: USB IN OUT and changing it to SUB, which I thought would do it.



any other problems you foresee if I'm using the sub out as my "main"?

SLICK

Quote from: Hopkins on April 02, 2012, 04:30:06 PM
Blimey, an actual person had to do something before I was allowed to post here, or even to have "more than 3 page views per day"!

All the best clubs have door men ;), welcome.

Quote from: Hopkins on April 02, 2012, 04:30:06 PM

No - what you describe is possible with the RC-300, but there are different modes of operation which cause different types of behaviour, and there are limitations.  However, to do this (and assuming that we begin with default settings):

1) Change the system setting REC Pdl Act to "Rec->Play", as per page 33 of the manual (available here: http://www.roland.com/support/article/?q=manuals&p=RC-300)
2) Set each of the three tracks to have "FREE" measures, as per page 17 of the manual (actually, for this specific example, only Track 2 needs to be set to "FREE")
3) Hit Rec/Play on Track 1 to record your "Bass n Drums"
4) Hit Rec/Play on Track 2 to record your "8 bar chord vamp" (this simultaneously stops recording but begins to loop playback of Track 1)
5) Hit Rec/Play on Track 2 again to cease recording but continue playing the loops while you "solo until your fingers hurt"

Thanks for pointing that out it does sound that the basic funcionality requirements would be satisfied by the RC-300 after all.
At the moment I'm going to stick with my low cost laptop /foor controller solution as I've been spoiled with all the bells and whistles you get from a SW looper. However I would seriously consider the RC-300 if I was going to be using a looper a lot at a gig (I have a stereo Jamman that does most of what I would need live right now).

Still holding out for the all in one guitar synth/ amp modler/ multi FX / looper killer combo that Boss could deliver .... Well a guy can dream right?

Parker fly deluxe,
Roland GR-55,
Laney LC30II

Hopkins

I will have to explore the world of software loopers one day.  I can imagine how unconstrained the developers must feel when they don't have to worry about dedicated hardware control!  I must confess, despite being "good with computers", I dismissed even the possibility of a software looper.  I think it is because I want to be free of all the potential problems that plague my daily life when I pick up the guitar in my spare time...  I remember the first time I saw a guitarist playing live with a laptop, it was in about 2001, a metal band called "Nile", and the guy was using a software synth with his guitar.  I remember thinking "are you mad?"!

That said, when I was testing the solution described in my last post, I did manage to crash the RC-300...  It displayed a "Too busy!" message until I turned it off!

Ricoche

Quote from: shawnb on January 29, 2012, 09:02:49 AM
Down the road, I'll experiment with syncing the RC50 with the RC300

This point here is something I'm greatly interested in.  It would be nice if the RC-50 was capable of syncing with the RC300 as slave or visa versa.

SteveGriffiths

Hi there -

So I got my RC300 to replace my RC-50 - maxed out memory.  I already new about the missing fade in functionality, and got over it.  Here are a couple of caveats.  The All Play / Stop pedal does NOT obey the loop stop settings e.g. stop/end/fade - it just stops.  There is a work around in that you can assign all 3 track Play / Stop functions to the same external footswitch.  This works, but leaves the on unit pedal as a doorstop.  What is a show stopper - for me at least - you cannot assign the rhythm Play / Stop to a footswitch - on unit, or external - the little square button is it.   I frequently build a live loop after hitting the rhythm and getting the audience to clap along, and often stop in the middle of the song, picking the rhythm up on the next beat and building up again. There is no hands free way (actually no not stooping down with a guitar strapped on way) to stop or start the rhythm independently.

The scary part - I have loops I put together in my DAW (SOnar), and drop onto the looper.  The one example had 3 loops to be used independently, verse, break, playout, all recorded at 94 bpm, with 16, 14 and 8 measures respectively. When I dropped them onto the RC50 it correctly got the tempo at 94.0 and all was well.  When I dropped the same 44.1K Stereo 16 bit wave files onto the RC300, it read them as 94.1, and added artifacts to the sound.  In addition to this, it interpreted the 14 measure loop as having 16 measures and slowed it down.  I was able to correct this, but not the 0.1 artifact issue.

Last thing was plain rude - the RC300 will not read mono wave files from the RC50.  You have to bring them back into daw and re-export as stereo.  A real pain. 

I really wanted to love it, all I really wanted was an RC50 with an SD slot but ended up with a glitchy, big piece of metal that I cannot perform the same performance I have done for years.

Oh Well - I am not against a software aproach and I am open to suggestions.

Cheers

Grif

aliensporebomb

Software Solutions:

Expert Sleeper's "Augustus Loop":
http://www.expert-sleepers.co.uk/

Circular Labs "Mobius":
http://circularlabs.com/index.html

A bummer about the RC300.  So there's no way you can make it work I take it?
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Elantric


geormiet

Say i have a track with something already recorded on it, and its stopped.  When i tap the rec/play button, it will start up in playback mode (green light only).    Is there a way so that when I tap it, it will start in overdub mode?

SteveGriffiths

Quote from: aliensporebomb on April 10, 2012, 03:59:18 PM
Software Solutions:

Expert Sleeper's "Augustus Loop":
http://www.expert-sleepers.co.uk/

Circular Labs "Mobius":
http://circularlabs.com/index.html

A bummer about the RC300.  So there's no way you can make it work I take it?

Thanks for the quick response.  I can get round all of it except the Rhythm start / Stop.  I really don't understand why they left it out.  $51 to ship it back!  I'll take a look at your suggestions - thanks

Cheers

Grif


aliensporebomb

Maybe Roland support has an idea on it?
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

shawnb

Quote from: geormiet on April 10, 2012, 05:19:55 PM
Say i have a track with something already recorded on it, and its stopped.  When i tap the rec/play button, it will start up in playback mode (green light only).    Is there a way so that when I tap it, it will start in overdub mode?

Yes!  Under the System menu, there's an option to toggle between Rec=>Overdub and Rec=>Play.
(Manual, pg 33.)
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

shawnb

#45
Quote from: SteveGriffiths on April 10, 2012, 03:51:49 PMThe All Play / Stop pedal does NOT obey the loop stop settings e.g. stop/end/fade - it just stops.  There is a work around in that you can assign all 3 track Play / Stop functions to the same external footswitch.  This works, but leaves the on unit pedal as a doorstop. 
True.   Feels like it's more of a panic button.  Since 'End' & 'Fade' take time to execute, I find that just pressing the tracks' stop pedals in sequence works for me.   But you're right, it would be better to have it honor the stop settings.

Quote from: SteveGriffiths on April 10, 2012, 03:51:49 PMWhat is a show stopper - for me at least - you cannot assign the rhythm Play / Stop to a footswitch - on unit, or external - the little square button is it.
I would try setting the Rhythm Level to one of your footswitches, and toggle between 0 and 100.   I believe this would be equivalent to toggling it off & on for many applications.  Unfortunately, this only works while you're playing SOMETHING...   It does not work for simply starting the Rhythm on its own.   

Quote from: SteveGriffiths on April 10, 2012, 03:51:49 PMThe scary part - I have loops I put together in my DAW (SOnar), and drop onto the looper...  When I dropped the same 44.1K Stereo 16 bit wave files onto the RC300, it read them as 94.1, and added artifacts to the sound.  In addition to this, it interpreted the 14 measure loop as having 16 measures and slowed it down.  I was able to correct this, but not the 0.1 artifact issue.
I just created a simple 14 measure track in SONAR, 94bpm, and exported it & successfully loaded it into the RC300.   If you continue to have this issue, feel free to send me a copy of the .wav file in question & I'll see if I can help.   

Quote from: SteveGriffiths on April 10, 2012, 03:51:49 PMLast thing was plain rude - the RC300 will not read mono wave files from the RC50.  You have to bring them back into daw and re-export as stereo.  A real pain. 
Confirmed.   The RC300 only honors stereo format .wavs, otherwise it reports an 'unsupported format' error.   This is consistent with the manual. 

Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Hopkins

#46
Quote from: geormiet on April 10, 2012, 05:19:55 PM
Say i have a track with something already recorded on it, and its stopped.  When i tap the rec/play button, it will start up in playback mode (green light only).    Is there a way so that when I tap it, it will start in overdub mode?

Quote from: shawnb on April 10, 2012, 09:11:47 PM
Yes!  Under the System menu, there's an option to toggle between Rec=>Overdub and Rec=>Play.
(Manual, pg 33.)

I think that you may have misread here - this particular setting applies when you are record from a blank track.  I think that geormiet wants to launch into overdub mode immediately when a recorded track is *not* playing.  Regardless of this setting, if you have recorded a track which is stopped, the first press of rec-play begins playback, not overdubbing.  I do not think that it is possible to do what geormiet wants.

It does seem to me that this thread is highlighting quite a few things that could be addressed with new firmware.  Does anyone know if Boss are likely to respond to these suggestions if submitted formally?  Some companies are excellent with feedback on new products, others less so.

Elantric

QuoteIt does seem to me that this thread is highlighting quite a few things that could be addressed with new firmware.  Does anyone know if Boss are likely to respond to these suggestions if submitted formally?  Some companies are excellent with feedback on new products, others less so.


It's worth a try, but not likely you will receive a response.


geormiet

Quote from: Hopkins on April 11, 2012, 07:31:04 AM
I think that you may have misread here - this particular setting applies when you are record from a blank track.  I think that geormiet wants to launch into overdub mode immediately when a recorded track is *not* playing.  Regardless of this setting, if you have recorded a track which is stopped, the first press of rec-play begins playback, not overdubbing.  I do not think that it is possible to do what geormiet wants.

It does seem to me that this thread is highlighting quite a few things that could be addressed with new firmware.  Does anyone know if Boss are likely to respond to these suggestions if submitted formally?  Some companies are excellent with feedback on new products, others less so.

Yes, this setting doesn't address my problem.   i've resorted to a quick double tap, which actually works pretty decently.

Hopkins

I have begun by e-mailing the chap at Roland UK who helped me out with some initial enquires and asking for a contact.  Let's see how far we get.