Was: "Just bought an ATG-1 floorboard"

Started by DLC86, November 21, 2017, 03:05:53 AM

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Majiken

Hi, best information I can find is on page 45 of the Luthier Installation manual, where it states a range of 5 VDC to 9 VDC, with damage to the board above 10 VDC. Not seeing anything else, I assume the "low cutoff" is probably 5, or a tiny bit lower.
Take what you need, put back a bit more, leave the place behind you better than it was before :-)

www.majiken.rocks

DLC86

Quote from: Majiken on December 03, 2017, 08:05:13 AM
Hi, best information I can find is on page 45 of the Luthier Installation manual, where it states a range of 5 VDC to 9 VDC, with damage to the board above 10 VDC. Not seeing anything else, I assume the "low cutoff" is probably 5, or a tiny bit lower.
Yes, that's what I supposed too. Hope this conclusion is right, it would be perfect for 2x18650s or any 7.4v battery.
Thanks for chiming in.

cags12

Quote from: DLC86 on December 03, 2017, 09:30:52 AM
Yes, that's what I supposed too. Hope this conclusion is right, it would be perfect for 2x18650s or any 7.4v battery.
Thanks for chiming in.

Those are the ideal values. But in reality the cut-off is somewhere around 4.8V.

Please bear in mind that having a 7.4V battery will impede the Luthier Kit to notify you when you have low battery. I mean, the light starts blinking when you are below the 5V mark. However, a 7.4V battery will never reach that point before its protection circuit cuts the power off ~6.2V (depends on the BMS of your battery). Unfortunately, you cannot calibrate/configure the luthier kit to know what nominal battery voltage you are operating with.

DLC86

Thanks for the precious info cags12.
But at this point I think I'll stick with the stock 4 AAs, also to avoid other complications (such as finding a suitable battery holder for 18650s).

Another question: where do you usually place midi connectors and the quiccosound inside a strat? I was thinking about making the spring cavity a bit larger to accomodate them, but first I want to check if I can fit them in the jack cavity, there seems to be quite a bit of space in there.

cags12

Quote from: DLC86 on December 14, 2017, 08:03:44 AM
Thanks for the precious info cags12.
But at this point I think I'll stick with the stock 4 AAs, also to avoid other complications (such as finding a suitable battery holder for 18650s).

Another question: where do you usually place midi connectors and the quiccosound inside a strat? I was thinking about making the spring cavity a bit larger to accomodate them, but first I want to check if I can fit them in the jack cavity, there seems to be quite a bit of space in there.

Whenever you find space really and you prefer. You can try something that was once suggested. Having 2 DIN connectors externally accessible so you can use the QuiccoSound or the regular MIDI cable if you managed to find an AT-200B breakout Box. I found some stock in Czech Republic but they do not ship internationally.

In my own installation in my PRS I will have the Quiccosound completely internal as I do not want to route the guitar at all.

DLC86

Thanks again Cags!
Anyway there's something that doesn't make much sense regarding the batteries.
The majority of rechargeable AAs are 1.2v, this means that the atg would shut off when they reach their nominal voltage, basically using only 20-30% of their charge!
A bit better if we use 1.5v alkalines but still not optimal cuz the cut-off on these is 0.9v x 4 = 3.6v.

I think I have to search a bit more..

Elantric

Quote from: cags12 on December 14, 2017, 08:20:59 AM
Whenever you find space really and you prefer. You can try something that was once suggested. Having 2 DIN connectors externally accessible so you can use the QuiccoSound or the regular MIDI cable if you managed to find an AT-200B breakout Box. I found some stock in Czech Republic but they do not ship internationally.

In my own installation in my PRS I will have the Quiccosound completely internal as I do not want to route the guitar at all.

On  a Strat  - there is an old trick to provide more room for internal electronics - install the 1/4" output jack plate upside down

DLC86

Whoever thought about this is a genius!

Anyway, now I have been thinking about the problem of the atg not indicating low battery with a 7.4v battery Cags12 talked about.
I assume the atg circuit just measures the voltage coming in and when it drops under a certain threshold it tells the battery is low.
I think this could be easily solved with a resistor in series with the battery pack positive to create a voltage drop so that the cut-off point of the battery pack corresponds to the cut-off point of the atg.
Even better/easier if we use a trimmer set as a voltage divider.
I still haven't done the math with a calculator but I think a resistor around 10-15k or a trimmer of 50-100k should do the trick.

GuitarBuilder

Quote from: DLC86 on December 14, 2017, 08:35:44 AM
Thanks again Cags!
Anyway there's something that doesn't make much sense regarding the batteries.
The majority of rechargeable AAs are 1.2v, this means that the atg would shut off when they reach their nominal voltage, basically using only 20-30% of their charge!
A bit better if we use 1.5v alkalines but still not optimal cuz the cut-off on these is 0.9v x 4 = 3.6v.

I think I have to search a bit more..

I think you may be overthinking this issue - decide what you use the guitar for: is it for live work or studio?  If the latter, then battery life should not be an issue.  For the former you need about 3-4 hours' worth and you're good.  I've been using these for the past 6 months and have had zero issues:



I keep the second battery handy, fully charged.  Change out takes about 20 seconds.  I put a fully charged battery in before the gig and it is still going when finished.  Why make it more complicated?
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

DLC86

#34
Quote from: GuitarBuilder on December 14, 2017, 10:18:05 AM
I think you may be overthinking this issue - decide what you use the guitar for: is it for live work or studio?  If the latter, then battery life should not be an issue.  For the former you need about 3-4 hours' worth and you're good.  I've been using these for the past 6 months and have had zero issues:



I keep the second battery handy, fully charged.  Change out takes about 20 seconds.  I put a fully charged battery in before the gig and it is still going when finished.  Why make it more complicated?
You're probably right about me overthinking, and probably a 9v battery is the simplest solution.
Anyway I just want to find the neatest solution since it will be a definitive Installation.
In that post I was talking about the 4 AA 1.2v battery and, given the voltage at which the atg turns off, they could potentially have a very short duration, probably not enough for soundcheck+gig.

I can see a potential issue with the 9v battery though: I don't know what's the cut-off V for that battery but, being a vaper, I know that if a lithium battery is discharged too much chemical reactions begin to happen inside it and could get damaged and cause safety issues.
Maybe I'm still overthinking but I don't want a battery vent inside my guitar. Probably the trick I suggested in my last post could solve it though.

My actual plan is to use a couple 18650s along with this circuit to have an embedded charger: http://www.modmaker.co.uk/Micro-USB-2S-Balance-Charger

The only issue I have with this solution atm is to find a suitable holder but I may just use one of this and make a cover with a piece of pickguard material.
http://www.modmaker.co.uk/Keystone-1048-Dual-18650-Battery-Holder


GuitarBuilder

Quote from: DLC86 on December 14, 2017, 01:18:23 PM
Anyway I just want to find the neatest solution since it will be a definitive Installation.

What does definitive mean?  Would you not still have access to the battery?  I strongly recommend having easy access.

Quote from: DLC86 on December 14, 2017, 01:18:23 PMIn that post I was talking about the 4 AA 1.2v battery and, given the voltage at which the atg turns off, they could potentially have a very short duration, probably not enough for soundcheck+gig.

The use of rechargeable AA is NOT recommended by Antares.  I've used 4 Alkaline AAs in the supplied battery holder and confirmed getting 8 hours of use. 

Quote from: DLC86 on December 14, 2017, 01:18:23 PMI can see a potential issue with the 9v battery though: I don't know what's the cut-off V for that battery but, being a vaper, I know that if a lithium battery is discharged too much chemical reactions begin to happen inside it and could get damaged and cause safety issues.
Maybe I'm still overthinking but I don't want a battery vent inside my guitar. Probably the trick I suggested in my last post could solve it though.

You have not mentioned what type of guitar you're installing this in.  If it has a tremolo cavity, the solution could be quite simple - that's where my 9V battery resides, behind a tremolo cover with easy access door.  Otherwise, make sure you can quickly remove the battery in case of trouble.

Quote from: DLC86 on December 14, 2017, 01:18:23 PMMy actual plan is to use a couple 18650s along with this circuit to have an embedded charger: http://www.modmaker.co.uk/Micro-USB-2S-Balance-Charger

The only issue I have with this solution atm is to find a suitable holder but I may just use one of this and make a cover with a piece of pickguard material.
http://www.modmaker.co.uk/Keystone-1048-Dual-18650-Battery-Holder

I think you'd be better off being able to remove the individual batteries and charging them externally.
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

cags12

Quote from: DLC86 on December 14, 2017, 01:18:23 PM

In that post I was talking about the 4 AA 1.2v battery and, given the voltage at which the atg turns off, they could potentially have a very short duration, probably not enough for soundcheck+gig.


There are other chemistries that provide more voltage. 1.6V AA rechargeable.
https://www.maplin.co.uk/p/nickel-zinc-aa-rechargeable-batteries-4-pack-n37ka

DLC86

#37
Quote from: GuitarBuilder on December 14, 2017, 01:39:46 PM
What does definitive mean?  Would you not still have access to the battery?  I strongly recommend having easy access.
Definitive in terms of the routing I have to do on the guitar.

Quote from: GuitarBuilder on December 14, 2017, 01:39:46 PMThe use of rechargeable AA is NOT recommended by Antares.  I've used 4 Alkaline AAs in the supplied battery holder and confirmed getting 8 hours of use.
Yes I know that with alkaline it would be ok but I want to use rechargeables. Anyway cags12 just provided another solution (thanks for the Nth time)

Quote from: GuitarBuilder on December 14, 2017, 01:39:46 PM
You have not mentioned what type of guitar you're installing this in.  If it has a tremolo cavity, the solution could be quite simple - that's where my 9V battery resides, behind a tremolo cover with easy access door.  Otherwise, make sure you can quickly remove the battery in case of trouble.
It's a strat with tremolo, I have mentioned it previously in the thread I believe. What do you mean with easy access door? Wouldn't I need to remove 6 screws to access it or does a cover with an embedded door exist? I had discarded this option for this exact reason..

Quote from: GuitarBuilder on December 14, 2017, 01:39:46 PM
I think you'd be better off being able to remove the individual batteries and charging them externally.
With the 18650s I would have both options actually.

Thanks for the suggestions and critics btw. That's exactly what I need to elaborate ;)

cags12

#38
Quote from: DLC86 on December 14, 2017, 02:09:11 PM
What do you mean with easy access door? Wouldn't I need to remove 6 screws to access it or does a cover with an embedded door exist? I had discarded this option for this exact reason..

Something like this but no idea where to find it:


Would there be any easy way to convert screw-able back cover to magnetic? Perhaps adhesive magnetic tape or something like that exist?

GuitarBuilder

Quote from: cags12 on December 14, 2017, 03:14:21 PM
Something like this but no idea where to find it:


Would there be any easy way to convert screw-able back cover to magnetic? Perhaps adhesive magnetic strips or something like that exist?

That's the cover I used, only in black.  It is about $17 at Allparts.com.  This is also why I chose to use a 9V battery, because of the small size.
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

cags12

Quote from: GuitarBuilder on December 14, 2017, 03:17:08 PM
That's the cover I used, only in black.  It is about $17 at Allparts.com.  This is also why I chose to use a 9V battery, because of the small size.

would you know if the batteries you are using are standard 9V size that would fot on a 9V battery holder? I have read some rechargeable are a bit bigger not fitting right on holders.

DLC86


Elantric

#42
Quote from: cags12 on December 14, 2017, 03:14:21 PM
Something like this but no idea where to find it:


Would there be any easy way to convert screw-able back cover to magnetic? Perhaps adhesive magnetic tape or something like that exist?




in white here
Allparts PG-0548-025 White Backplate
https://www.allparts.com/PG-0548-025-White-Backplate_p_2572.html


Thomas Nordegg uses Velcro for similar battery access plates


GuitarBuilder

Quote from: cags12 on December 14, 2017, 03:23:37 PM
would you know if the batteries you are using are standard 9V size that would fot on a 9V battery holder? I have read some rechargeable are a bit bigger not fitting right on holders.

Yes, I used a $2 9V battery holder bought at a local electronics parts store.
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

Elantric

#44
Quote from: cags12 on December 14, 2017, 08:20:59 AM
Whenever you find space really and you prefer. You can try something that was once suggested. Having 2 DIN connectors externally accessible so you can use the QuiccoSound or the regular MIDI cable if you managed to find an AT-200B breakout Box. I found some stock in Czech Republic but they do not ship internationally.

In my own installation in my PRS I will have the Quiccosound completely internal as I do not want to route the guitar at all.

Another strategy

GK3 kit install with "gig proof" 13pin plug attachment plus sustainiac
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=18091.new#new

QuoteThe holder for the connector has been heat formed (using a hot air gun) from plastic into a U shape and then bored out to snugly fit the connector. This is then screwed onto the socket and it holds the plug securely. I have done the same thing on my belt box. A good source of plastic is the white plastic pipe used by plumbers for storm water or sink drainage.  Just cut of a piece and slit it then heat bend it around a shaped piece of wood. Set the heat gun to around 250deg C.








rolfay

Howdy, I'm guessing this is the wrong place to post this but there is someone still selling Antares ATG1s - goddammit I bought one - on eBay in Europe (UK). Ex demo apparently  . . . . . also on their own website I think.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Antares-ATG-1-Guitar-Floor-Processor/322987296830?epid=1783497425&hash=item4b338b083e:g:cDwAAOSwh1haTlYW

My one appears to have the latest firmware . . . but what would I know? Paid a little less then the buy it now price. Still got to dial in the GK settings properly but seems to be fine. No software available now of course, or the latest manual. Maybe Elantric could post the manual PDF, rather than the dead Antares website link? Pretty please? . . . .

Been lurking for a while and thought I would post this to anyone who was wanting the ATG1 floorboard. . . . . Thanks for all the comments, advice and not so much for all the £££ spent on gear I've bought as a result!

You all feel like friends I've never met. . . . .

Roland

DLC86

I read the ebay seller is from Hitchin and that's where I shipped back mine so there's a good chance the seller is someone from Sonic8 and that's exactly the one I personally updated.

I think there's already a thread where manual was posted, I don't remember if I found it here or on the Antares forum. Try to do a search.


rolfay

Thanks Elantric.

DLC86 You're right I think. The current listed ATG1 shows core pack 3.01, so not so great. Mine is 3.32 . . . .


DLC86

#49
I finally managed to install the luthier kit  in my strat and I'm blown away, no audible latency, perfect pitch shifting and pretty good models. Definitely money well spent.

Anyway I have an issue: when palm muting or strumming hard causing some fret buzz I hear a pretty nasty high frequency noise, it's also present with atg off but it seems the atg boosts it quite a bit, and it's annoying especially on the low E string.
I tried to play a bit with saddles distance settings and that changes the tone of that noise but couldn't find a setting that make it tolerable.

I think the cause is the comb filtering correction the ATG makes to flatten the response of the hex pickup (based on its position), probably fret buzz and palm muting introduce frequencies that shouldn't be captured by the pickup in that particular position revealing the eq correction.

Any way to solve this problem? I'm actually thinking about installing my graphtech ghost saddles in place of the hex pickup since, I assume, the piezo setting in the atg doesn't have the correction eq.
I know piezos can exhibit other problems but maybe they're more negligible than this one, I already tried some palm muting on them with unprocessed sound and it doesn't seem so bad.

PS: eventually how could I adapt the piezo output level and impedance to enter the ATG?