VG-99 - HELP! strange artifacts in synth patches. Sounds like pitch shift

Started by adamlee011, August 22, 2017, 01:48:46 PM

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adamlee011

Ibanez s970 with gk 3 internal kit vg99 sub outs to board. I have these atari sounds on bowed and other synth patches. Sounds like it's trying to register notes from string noise and overtones. Specifically, I can reproduce the issue on the D on the 5th fret of the A string will do this and it sounds like  it's pitch shifting from the actual note to the octave 12 frets up with no modulation or alternate tunings turned on. I don't know where the problem is coming from so no idea how to address it or even where to the post this. Spent months tweaking gk settings and mounting the pickup, reading all I could here about the device. I used a vg88 for a long time without trouble but barely touched the synth sounds. Besides that it was Rev 1 until I recently updated it but that's a different unit altogether. The question is with the vg99. Where do I look to solve this? Without linking me to the usual setup stuff please? Anybody with a similar problem that can point me in the right direction? Thanks.

admin

Post and MP3 or Youtube example of the problem

and post your "problem" VG-99 patch

adamlee011

this is from editor. export smf >patch. I use gk settings per patch. don't know what all copies over this way. thanks

adamlee011

Here's a quick and dirty cellphone clip. I play a chord once. The rest is that one d  note on the a string

adamlee011

Thank you for responding.

adamlee011

Another way to reproduce this is to strike an open string, E or A for sure, and just touch the the harmonic at the fifth fret or third fret. It's almost understandable if you do that but still, I don't think, acceptable. It's like it's trying at pitch guessing, like midi, but it shouldn't be should it? It's not even being asked to do alternate tuning. Even if it's guessing pitch for midi, shouldn't it be producing technically an "analog" sound? Where in the circuit can this be coming from? Do I have a bad vg99? I think I heard a little of this on a sample of a user patch on this forum before. I feel like there has to be a definitive place this is coming from. And it's not hard to achieve so I'm surprised I haven't found it in my research. This thing is killing me right now lol

admin

On the VG-99 the Strings are the oscillators


Might be easier to detect any issue if you post a video showing what your fingers are playing  - because the MP3 just sounds like you are playing one string and hitting harmonics


Any anomalies on your guitar setup , buzzing frets, string age anomalies, hitting harmonics, etc - all will be faithfully reproduced and introduced into the final output of the VG-99 

QuoteAnother way to reproduce this is to strike an open string, E or A for sure, and just touch the the harmonic at the fifth fret or third fret. It's almost understandable if you do that but still, I don't think, acceptable.

Actually thats quite normal and expected results with the VG-99

Remember  the Strings are the oscillators on the VG-99 ( there is no Pitch to MIDI for triggering PCM tones like on other Roland Guitar synth systems

Might be easier to detect any issue if you post a video showing your playing- because the MP3 just sounds like you are playing one string and hitting harmonics

rolandvg99

Could also be resonating tremolo springs, regular pick-up too close to the strings, and loads more. String action is also crucial, meaning what works for Guitar modelling doesn't always work with synth modelling. The slightest string buds will throw certain synths right of to warble country. One more thing: pitch shifting before the GR300 section is also a thing to avoid.
To V or not to V: That is the question.

My little Soundcloud corner

adamlee011

Quote from: admsustainiac on August 22, 2017, 04:55:35 PM
On the VG-99 the Strings are the oscillators


Might be easier to detect any issue if you post a video showing what your fingers are playing  - because the MP3 just sounds like you are playing one string and hitting harmonics


Any anomalies on your guitar setup , buzzing frets, string age anomalies, hitting harmonics, etc - all will be faithfully reproduced and introduced into the final output of the VG-99 

Actually thats quite normal and expected results with the VG-99

Remember  the Strings are the oscillators on the VG-99 ( there is no Pitch to MIDI for triggering PCM tones like on other Roland Guitar synth systems

Might be easier to detect any issue if you post a video showing your playing- because the MP3 just sounds like you are playing one string and hitting harmonics

There's nothing to show. That's the problem. I'm playing one note over and over. The "harmonic" you speak of is the anomoly. That's happening all on its own. Uncontrollably. I was thinking it could have something to do with spring resonance. I do have some damping going on as far as that's concerned. I'll have a look at the normal pickups. I know they aren't close to the strings but I can mess with them. The gk unfortunately has just enough room to fit. And it's right against the normal pickup. There's really no option as far as distance from the bridge on this guitar. I wish I had more filtering options right from the gk. The high and low filter on the more recent piezo type options don't help with this.

Elantric

Quote from: adamlee011 on August 23, 2017, 12:10:15 PM
 

There's nothing to show. That's the problem. I'm playing one note over and over. The "harmonic" you speak of is the anomoly. That's happening all on its own. Uncontrollably. I was thinking it could have something to do with spring resonance. I do have some damping going on as far as that's concerned. I'll have a look at the normal pickups. I know they aren't close to the strings but I can mess with them. The gk unfortunately has just enough room to fit. And it's right against the normal pickup. There's really no option as far as distance from the bridge on this guitar. I wish I had more filtering options right from the gk. The high and low filter on the more recent piezo type options don't help with this.

Could be your guitar pick - if is serrated and "scrapes" the strings - you will suffer anomalies

Smoother picks  - ( the the VPick) have proved their worth for Guitar Synth players
https://v-picks.com/

adamlee011

Also I'm well aware that the string is the sound source. That's what I don't get about this problem. It SOUNDS like it's misinterpreting the note or octave when it wouldn't be interpreting anything! No pitch shifting or alternate tuning is on. It obviously has something to do with whatever the hrm does in cosm synths that doesn't occur with other cosm guitars. Anyway it's frustrating as hell. I can't imagine there's a whole lot I can do to drastically change the behavior.

adamlee011

So these voices are generally just way fussier than I would like for any kind of live use it sounds like. Great. I can spend an eternity tweaking and trying to find an acceptable compromise. I'd rather it just pick up the notes I'm  playing and not tend to jump to the octave when the wind blows but I guess, buy the ticket, take the ride eh?

adamlee011

Thank you guys for your help. It's wonderful to know this community is still so supportive of each other.

Elantric

QuoteI can't imagine there's a whole lot I can do to drastically change the behavior.

Try a different guitar  -  or get your frets leveled and dressed and polished and have a professional set up your guitar  - or learn yourself


and be sure you do not have the GK-3 PU set too close to the strings - string slap hitting the top of the GK-3 PU when picking aggressively yields the type of anomalies you are experiencing 

Guitar setup  makes a BIG difference in the results you will experience with your VG-99

Also try separate "GK Profile" with higher Gk String gain for use with high gain or synth patches - the VG-99 allows you to change the GK profile for each patch

Optimal GK Hex Pickup Settings (Assigning different GK String Sensitivity Levels for specific patches) 
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php/topic,1060.0.html



we mention this trick in the VG-99 Top things to know area
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?board=62.0

and VG-99 FAQ
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=13.0


https://www.amazon.com/Make-Your-Electric-Guitar-Great-ebook/dp/B00268EVEA/ref=as_sl_pc_tf_til?tag=_&linkCode=w00&linkId=&creativeASIN=B00268EVEA

adamlee011

Quote from: Elantric on August 23, 2017, 02:15:07 PM
Try a different guitar  -  or get your frets leveled and dressed and polished and have a professional set up your guitar  - or learn yourself


and be sure you do not have the GK-3 PU set too close to the strings - string slap hitting the top of the GK-3 PU when picking aggressively yields the type of anomalies you are experiencing 

Guitar setup  makes a BIG difference in the results you will experience with your VG-99

Also try separate "GK Profile" with higher Gk String gain for use with high gain or synth patches - the VG-99 allows you to change the GK profile for each patch

Optimal GK Hex Pickup Settings (Assigning different GK String Sensitivity Levels for specific patches) 
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php/topic,1060.0.html



we mention this trick in the VG-99 Top things to know area
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?board=62.0

and VG-99 FAQ
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=13.0


https://www.amazon.com/Make-Your-Electric-Guitar-Great-ebook/dp/B00268EVEA/ref=as_sl_pc_tf_til?tag=_&linkCode=w00&linkId=&creativeASIN=B00268EVEA

Thanks man. I'm actually quite skilled and experienced at setups and repairs and have LOTS of time in setting up gk pickups on multiple instruments. I'll go back through all of this again, probably a million times. I guess I was hoping that there might be something really obvious to someone, a broken vg99 or gk even, or a particular setting that would be obvious to someone hearing it.  Since I think I've been over everything relevant on this site about a hundred times. Like "yea that happened to me,  just do this..." I know that's hoping for a lot but you never know, especially  when you're at the point I am with this. I do have another guitar with a gk2a that behaves slightly better on those patches. At least I know now, I'll have to make compromises for sure. Develop a technique for these sounds, and on that guitar, find whatever the hell is essentialy echoing that note when it's played. I hope I can get to a happy place with the synth stuff. I'm looking forward to using it in a live project and as it stands I'd be embarrassed by the sounds it's randomly makes. I didn't know there was a v pick. I use jd jazzIII's but I do find finger picking helps some vg sounds a lot so that makes sense. I'll have to check that out. I need to pull out the old 88 and see what I get out of the synth stuff there too since the 99 is a year or two in my arsenal and only the past 6 months maybe have I been really digging in. The 88 seemed less fussy by a long shot, and I used that more than anything else since 2000, but like I said, I never really played with the synth guitars much in it. I always felt the the gk3 felt fussier than the 2a as well but when using the gk2a on the vg99 now, and with all the tweaking available on the 99, the two pups don't seem as vastly different as I had first thought. Thanks again. I'll let you know if I make any radical discoveries.

aliensporebomb

What guitar do you have the GK3 mounted on?

Picture of the mounting setup please?

Also what GK SENS levels are you using?

The one time you played a chord it sounded like the guitar was somewhat out of intonation.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

adamlee011

Quote from: aliensporebomb on August 23, 2017, 03:39:00 PM
What guitar do you have the GK3 mounted on?

Picture of the mounting setup please?

Also what GK SENS levels are you using?

The one time you played a chord it sounded like the guitar was somewhat out of intonation.

That's the ibanez s970. Might have been out of tune. Just did the intonation. Maybe 2 or 3 days ago. I'm not perfect, I'll definitely double check that. I have to intonation the old one with the gk2a too. That one is def out.  I posted the entire project of that guitar on this site somewhere a long time ago. I think drop box stopped hosting the photos.   >:(  give me a min and I'll dig something up. I'm actually getting in bed now but thanks for all the ideas. I'll be focusing on this tomorrow big time. Anyway pictures coming. Couple min.

adamlee011


adamlee011

Gk sense from 0 to 100 and everything in between. I have all kinds of gk songs saved for hotter signal, medium, soft, midi triggering specifically, and tweaked every possibility in there attempting to alleviate this issue. Having internet problems now. Tried ten times to send pics. Those should show now. Some from when it was first rolandized. Still looks the same. The pickup itself got swapped though because I was setting it up and managed to break it. Don't ask. I put the gk3 external pickup and wire under the internal pickup cover and cut a notch in the side for the wire which actually gave me a smidgen more freedom with height adjustment (not much) and that's  what's on it now. Just the inards of the pickup itself was swapped from an external gk3. None of that would really make any difference. In theory anyway. The only difference is which side of the pcb they wondered the wores on. This project gets out of control every time I screw with it.

Elantric

i do see you have the GK-PU mounted "reversed"


Did you set the VG-99 for "Reverse" GK PU Direction?





Your GK-3 PU is awfully close to the Normal bridge Humbucker




You might be suffering impact of Magnetic flux phase cancellation interactions between both pickups
http://www.moore.org.au/pick/06/06_gobd.htm

it does happen  - with negative results
https://www.google.com/patents/US7375276
Japanese Patent Publication Number 2985061


Since you know guitars - as a test, i would temporarily physically remove the Normal bridge Humbucker PU - and retest the VG-99

and learn how to post pics

VGuitar Forums » VGuitar Central » Forum / Web Site Help / FAQ
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?board=23.0

gumtown

The offset on those saddle adjustment screws look odd.
Nice looking guitar !!  :)
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

admin

i do see you have the GK-PU mounted "reversed"


Did you set the VG-99 for "Reverse" GK PU Direction?



chrish

I was just curious as to what 13 pin Jack you installed into the quarter-inch jack location on the guitar?

adamlee011

wow. ok I'll be looking into the pickup proximity today then. to answer other questions. i reversed the wires in the harness that connects to the preamp as suggested in another post so that I don't have to use the "reverse gk" setting and the guitar can stay compatible with my vg88. the 13 pin connector came with the internal gk kit. I kind of welded it in with a product called abatron wood epox. i think that's the brand name anyway. good stuff.

adamlee011

Quote from: gumtown on August 23, 2017, 07:30:59 PM
The offset on those saddle adjustment screws look odd.
Nice looking guitar !!  :)

They are offset a little. neat little trem. has a tool you unscrew from it's holding spot and screw into the back to adjust intonation at pitch. that's why they're offset. to make it easy to unlock the saddle while the string is at pitch. the intonation tool is the piece that looks like an extra fine tuner. I really like the zr2 trem so far. It has its pros and cons like any trem. I'm a little concerned that that system might be causing some of the overtones that may be effecting this whole issue.