Squaver P1- Audio controlled Synthesizer

Started by lumena, June 08, 2017, 10:46:43 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

lumena







Please note I have no affiliation but found this really interesting. L>

Squaver P1
Semi-modular, audio controlled analog synthesizer.

Using our proprietary chip the Audio Controlled Oscillator already grants you many benefits, but when you add PWM, VCF, expression pedal inputs and foot-switches this analog synth turns into a performance craze.


http://sonicsmith.com

Squaver P1 - Beyond MIDI

Audio Controlled synths can change one's workflow from the bottom up. But can this really mean a shift in the way we sequence analog synths?

Audio Controlled synths can change one's workflow from the bottom up. But can this really mean a shift in the way we sequence analog synths?

If you asked us that question a couple of years ago, we would probably laugh (and cry) like most of you probably are right now. Until Sonicsmith introduced the ACO with our Audio Controlled Synths (ACS's) musicians only had two options: 1) Pitch to CV and CV to a VCO; or 2) Digital audio controlled synths either via software plug-ins or digital hardware, both options lacking CV and requiring lots of processing power.  Both systems have their respective drawbacks. But when you have a deeper look at Sonicsmith's ACS's and how far analog oscillator technology has come with the introduction of our Audio Controlled Oscillator, you can't help but ponder on the same beaten topic...

What's wrong with MIDI?

It's been nearly 40 years since the MIDI protocol was introduced and through the years, it has gained many fans but also many frowns. Even if you agree that 128 steps are enough to define your pitch and dynamics, there are many problems still plaguing it by nature. The serial nature of it could cause the occasional "stuck note" requiring musicians to press the good ol' PANIC button (that can quite literally be a show stopper), the rare and expensive after-touch control makes expressiveness quite limited, not to mention worrying about special cables and interfaces never helped anyone's budget or inspiration. The majority of guitarists would never even consider buying a "MIDI guitar" or installing a MIDI pickup and brass / woodwinds players can chime in with how much they desired a "breath control" MIDI instrument. A rumor has been circulating the internet since the early noughts about a renewed protocol, which should have been called MIDI 2.0 (or something of that sort), promising to overcome many of the limitations of the old MIDI but such protocol hasn't been announced and efforts seem to have died out for now. Meanwhile the return of the Eurorack format and the surging trend back to CV-controlled synths only emphasize the frustration (and perhaps boredom?) of the 8-bit digitized control which constrains each note into a specific definition.

Isn't it finally time for audio control?

A LOT has changed in sound engineering and music production in the last few decades, especially in the digital domain. Modern DAWs weren't so popular until about 2003 but since then, every beginner with no budget at all and a basic computer can enjoy unlimited audio multi-tracking, editing and processing. 92dB dynamic range is no longer a highlight but a mere minimum and even the basic sound interfaces these days have 4-8 audio outputs, most often left unused. It seems that with all those new resources and means of controlling audio so meticulously, it might just be the right time for audio to control something back. The ACO chip, developed over the past 5 years using state-of-the-art analog and mixed-signal design techniques borrowed from telecommunications, is not only the first real leap in analog synth technology but a gateway to a brand new workflow. If it's so easy for us to generate, record, edit and quantize audio, why couldn't we just leave the old MIDI protocol and rely on audio to sequence our synths? In other words, instead of trying to "pick up" the musician's hands movements and gestures while designing look-alike plastic instruments, why not just leave the real instruments in the hands of their proud owners and just extract the actual output of their performance? It doesn't get more analog than that.

So how do you do it?

Of course, our Audio-Controlled Synths are designed to convert audio from electric or mic'ed acoustic instruments directly to synth.  This means you can "play" your synth track with whatever instrument (or voice) you're most comfortable playing.  As if that alone weren't revolutionary enough, Audio-Controlled Synths also give you a new way to sequence audio that can bypass MIDI and get around the limitations MIDI imposes on expression and musicality.

All you need is an audio track (even a sine wave) whose frequency and envelope match what you want to produce on the synth.  You can create this audio track using whatever tools or DAW you're most comfortable with, and then simply play it into the main audio input of our ConVertor or Squaver P1.  You can optionally use our 1v/octave pitch CV and envelope CV outputs to control any other modular synth if you want to add voices or if our square and sawtooth voices aren't exactly what you're looking for.  And that's just from one audio track.

Of course with multiple Audio-Controlled Synths there is opportunity for polyphony, where each sequenced voice will cost one audio track in your DAW.  If you combine this with some of our patching options like analog ring modulator, the tonal possibilities that become available are almost endless.

So what do YOU plan to do with your Audio-Controlled Synth?

Product description:

Offering one ACO with it's square and sawtooth waves mix, the Squaver P1 pulls the whole analog audio - synth - CV performance together. Along with two envelope followers that can be assigned to either the VCA, PWM or the VCF and still have all the important CV ins and outs on the front panel.


The input preamp is powerful and clean with +40dB gain to accommodate electric instruments as well as dynamic mics. Two input filters can be used in cases help with pitch detection is needed: a switchable 2 pole HPF and a sweepable 4 pole LPF. One expression pedal is assigned to the input's LPF for "riding" its cut-off frequency in such cases where a fix position LPF might limit the players pitch range. The 2nd expression pedal input can be assigned to either the VCF cutoff frequency, octave CV or harmony CV via the Expression destination 4 position switch as well as to any other destination via it's dedicated "Exp CV" output. The ENV is generated from an ENV follower that can extract the dynamics from the main audio input and a second ENV follower extracts dynamics from the side-chain audio input.

Both the main input and side has their thru jacks for chaining an infinite amount of synths together for a multi voice synth chain. An ENV amount knob can determine how much you want to mimic the input dynamics from 1:1 to a completely flat response or completely reverse the ENV. ACO CV inputs for octave and semitones are accessible via front panel knobs and stereo minijack for easy arpeggiation from external CV sources like analog sequencers and LFO's. Two foot-switches "ACO CV In on" and "Side-chain on" give you real-time control over activating the arpeggiation CV inputs and engaging the alternative ENV follower input instead of the main input's ENV.
Features:

  • Single ACO design
  • Plays analog synth along with the input audio
  • Extracts gate, pitch, envelope and trigger CV from input audio
  • Mix knob can blend between square and sawtooth waves
  • 40 dB gain range on the input preamp (high impedance)
  • 3 thru jacks for daisy-chaining multiple units and record source directly
  • Side chain input to feed the 2nd ENV follower
  • Ring mod audio input will invert phase at the audio frequency
  • LP, BP / HP, 12 / 24db/oct resonant filter with CV input control
  • 9V battery operation or standard 9V pedal supply
  • Dual 4 charecter LED meter shows both the main input level and the side-chain input's
  • Total of 3 audio inputs, 5 CV outputs and 6 CV inputs


scratch17

I saw this a while back. It is a good start, but only a start. I did some research because this product really interested me. But it is limited in the following ways:

1. It's monophonic. For polyphonic guitar, you'd need six of these modules.

2. The output is only available as control voltage signals. No MIDI. That is a huge omission. While CV is ubiquitous in Eurorack and analog synths, most hardware synths and tone modules do not have CV input. And how can you connect to any soft synth or sampler? To do so would require that you bring DC coupled CV into your DAW through your audio interface. That is a huge problem because there are no interfaces available with DC coupled inputs.

The only way I've found to get around that limitation is to use Expert Sleepers ES-2-2 modules combined with their Silent Way software. Each module converts two CV inputs to a format that the Silent Way CV Input plugin can accept. So just for gate and pitch CV signals for six strings, you'd need six of the ES-2-2 modules. And twelve inputs on your audio interface. And you need a Eurorack case with power supply for the ES-2-2s. And you have to open six separate instances of the CV Input plugin in your DAW.

3. This is from the Sonicsmith FAQ about the ACO chip:

QuoteAnother limitation has to do with the ACO gate output generator. The gate CV turns "on" when the audio amplitude exceeds the threshold of about 3mV and will only turn "off" when the audio falls back down below this threshold. That means that string picks that do not start below that threshold might not get a "new note" gate output and will continue the previous note gate. In order to retrigger the gate CV the audio must fall below the threshold before a new note starts.

4. Based on the quote from #3 limitation, I can't see how the design allows for string bends when using gate CV. Maybe if you used the trigger CV to drive a Reaktor ADSR Block string bending would work. But I see no info on what kind of trigger CV that is being output. If the trigger is very fast, and can refire quickly enough, using it to drive an envelope generator could theoretically allow for string bending.
Hamer Duotone, Brian Moore i213, Taylor 710 BCE 

VG-99, FC-300, RMC Fanout
RJM Mastermind GT10
Kemper Profiling Amp
Radial JDV Mk3, X-Amp
Mesa Recto Pre + 20/20
68 Fender Bandmaster (AB763)
Marshal AS80R

UA Apollo X6, Twin X, Logic Pro, Luna, Melodyne Studio

admin

#2
QuoteWhile CV is ubiquitous in Eurorack and analog synths, most hardware synths and tone modules do not have CV input. And how can you connect to any soft synth or sampler? To do so would require that you bring DC coupled CV into your DAW through your audio interface. That is a huge problem because there are no interfaces available with DC coupled inputs.
There are efforts to allow  CV/Gate inputs to control soft synths described here:
https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8329&sid=1d8887ef5437ba4db6b1fccbd906b046


chrish

#4
I just received my converter+ and put it through its paces.

I have my guitar plugped directly into the input and only have to turn up the input gain knob just over halfway to get a good signal.

The guitar signal then goes to the unbuffered thru output of the converter + into my guitar preamp.

The gate knob is turned up about halfway at -12bBu. Turning the knob any lower so the gate opens quicker, produces a pulsating sound as the unit tries to track the input noise.

There is no on-off gate sound or feel as a tracking happens very smoothly.

I tried using an internal 9v battery and lower gate threshold setting noise is the same as using external power source so it's definitely the input noise.

Also don't hear any noise coming from either power source in my studio setup but that might change depending on radio frequency interference at other locations, so the battery option is very well-thought-out.

Not sure how I would get a cleaner input then just a direct guitar. And as recommended by Sonic Smith I'm only using the neck pickup.

So I have to say this box is amazing.

The tracking is spot-on and has the feel of my analog GR300.

The internal waveforms sound very good.

Those internal waveforms are output to the input of a Behringer Model D filter section via the model D's external audio input along with a cv gate signal from the mother 32 or the converter+.

I output the control voltage from the converter+  pitch, gate , and envelope to a mother 32 cv inputs.

Again the tracking is amazing. The mother 32 at its best, no more guitar pitch to MIDI hiccups, burps and belches.

The only scare moment was when the output of the internal synthesizer dropped way down. I had a external power supply plugged into the converter power jack, however my installed  internal 9v battery went dead and was causing the low output.

I guess the unit gives priority to the internal battery.

This is the product I've been waiting for.

Edit. It turns out that a dead internal 9v battery was not the problem for the low output that I encountered.

I had accidentally turned on the side chain audio input switch.


scratch17

@chrish said:

QuoteThis is the product I've been waiting for.

Thank you so much for the review!

We have all been waiting for a glitch free, fast tracking guitar to synth converter.

There are plenty of ways to convert MIDI to CV, so your DAW can control a hardware synth. There are also audio interfaces with DC coupled outputs for DAW control of a hardware synth via CV.

But I want to go the other way. I want to use the output of a Converter+ to drive a soft synth. I am thinking of using Reaktor 6. It has CV input Blocks that can accept a range of CV signals. That means I must be able to take a DC coupled output from the Converter+ and connect it to my interface (UA Apollo 8).

Am I correct in concluding that there will be no electrical issues if I send a DC output from the CV outputs of the Converter+ into my Apollo?





Hamer Duotone, Brian Moore i213, Taylor 710 BCE 

VG-99, FC-300, RMC Fanout
RJM Mastermind GT10
Kemper Profiling Amp
Radial JDV Mk3, X-Amp
Mesa Recto Pre + 20/20
68 Fender Bandmaster (AB763)
Marshal AS80R

UA Apollo X6, Twin X, Logic Pro, Luna, Melodyne Studio

admin

#6
Quote

Am I correct in concluding that there will be no electrical issues if I send a DC output from the CV outputs of the Converter+ into my Apollo?

Actually I expect problems in that scenario

a few Audio interfaces provide DC coupled OUTPUTS

but none I know support DC coupled INPUTS that support  CV/Gate signals


References
https://help.uaudio.com/hc/en-us/articles/115004231286-Are-the-Line-Outputs-on-my-Apollo-DC-Coupled-
https://www.pro-tools-expert.com/synth-expert/news-blog/2017/9/18/universal-audio-interfaces-let-you-send-cv-to-your-analog-world

http://moltenmodular.com/molten-modular-09-dc-coupling-cv-daw-control-bitwig-2-1
http://www.expert-sleepers.co.uk/siwaacencoder.html
http://www.expert-sleepers.co.uk/siwacompatibility.html


There may be a Korg Volca or 500 series module that may provide what you seek

scratch17

Thanks, Steve, I suspected that was the case. I have a workaround though. It is simpler and has the advantage of not taking up 4 inputs on my interface.

https://www.kentonuk.com/products/items/m-cv/pcvmidi.shtml

It has four CV inputs and outputs MIDI.
Hamer Duotone, Brian Moore i213, Taylor 710 BCE 

VG-99, FC-300, RMC Fanout
RJM Mastermind GT10
Kemper Profiling Amp
Radial JDV Mk3, X-Amp
Mesa Recto Pre + 20/20
68 Fender Bandmaster (AB763)
Marshal AS80R

UA Apollo X6, Twin X, Logic Pro, Luna, Melodyne Studio

scratch17

After an email to sonicsmith, I received a reply from Noam Lavi at sonicsmith.

QuoteI have tried the Kenton Pro with our products and if MIDI is the only thing you are after, I would recommend waiting.
The maximum "settling time" in the Kenton to MIDI pro is 50ms and a lot of times this isn't enough for guitar / voice uses. Definitely not bass instruments.

I'm developing a Eurorack module with special MIDI capabilities which will do it much better.
A release date is unknown but would be later this year.


I am waiting. I need to be able to drive Kontakt.


@Chirish, could you attach a few sound clips of the Converter+ driving the Moog Mother and Model D, please? I'd love to hear how well the tracking works.

Thanks, Steven.
Hamer Duotone, Brian Moore i213, Taylor 710 BCE 

VG-99, FC-300, RMC Fanout
RJM Mastermind GT10
Kemper Profiling Amp
Radial JDV Mk3, X-Amp
Mesa Recto Pre + 20/20
68 Fender Bandmaster (AB763)
Marshal AS80R

UA Apollo X6, Twin X, Logic Pro, Luna, Melodyne Studio

jim-analog



Greetings,

Chirish, glad your unit arrived and you're happy with it! I too look forward to a demo with it CV connected to other analog gear. Have you found any further + or - since your initial report? If you were to purchase again, would you consider the larger squaver unit? Lastly, where did you order from? Best of luck with your experiments, looking forward to any updates. I'm very interested in this product!

Regards, Jim

scratch17

Hamer Duotone, Brian Moore i213, Taylor 710 BCE 

VG-99, FC-300, RMC Fanout
RJM Mastermind GT10
Kemper Profiling Amp
Radial JDV Mk3, X-Amp
Mesa Recto Pre + 20/20
68 Fender Bandmaster (AB763)
Marshal AS80R

UA Apollo X6, Twin X, Logic Pro, Luna, Melodyne Studio

chrish

Quote from: scratch17 on March 08, 2019, 11:58:46 AM
After an email to sonicsmith, I received a reply from Noam Lavi at sonicsmith.

I am waiting. I need to be able to drive Kontakt.


@Chirish, could you attach a few sound clips of the Converter+ driving the Moog Mother and Model D, please? I'd love to hear how well the tracking works.

Thanks, Steven.
it would be cool if sonicsmith could get a fast and accurate cv to midi thing happening.

I'll see if I still have a wav file to mp3 converter available so I can upload a sound sample.

Yea Jim I've been wondering whether I should have purchased the more advanced synthesizer from Sonic Smith instead of the converter+.

I didn't expect their waveforms to sound so good and the P1 has pulse-width modulation as well as the auto filter before for pitch tracking and a low pass filter section to run the oscillator through ( if I'm understanding correctly)

The converter+ does have a 2 or 4 pole filter, however it's an auto filter that can be applied  to the input for better tracking or apply it to after the internal oscillator.

So what I've been doing is just running the converter+ output right into the audio input of the Behringer Model D. That allows use of the everything after the oscillator section on the model D and gives access to the filter section.

When not using the converter+ Auto filter for improved pitch tracking, its cool to turn it on and then run it into the filter section of the model D.

I'm also running the analog GR300 in parallel with the above setup.

For the first time I'm getting what I call a thick guitar string sound, almost a bow like thickness.

And Sonic Smith is correct, when you play  two notes at the same time it produces some interesting fxs.

As far as noise coming into the converter+ and having to turn the gate threshold up in order to cut the noise, I'm wondering if the guitar and pickups act like an antenna for radio frequency interference?








scratch17

@chrish, have you tried connecting the CV outputs on the Convertor+ to trigger the oscillator on the Moog Mother 32?

Until Sonicsmith releases the CV to MIDI module, the CV outputs will be the only way to control external synths with CV. I am amazed that there are no audio

CV is quite mysterious to me.

For example, on the Convertor+ there is a gate, a trigger, a pitch (labeled CV), and an envelope output.

The nomenclature of CV labels is ambiguous at best. I get that gate is for note on/off. But so is trigger. Yuk!

The name 'gate' can mean different things on different devices with CV.

For example, on the Roland System 1m, the term "gate in" is pretty straight forward. The manual says it "imports keyboard on/off from an external device". It is obvious that you would patch the gate out on the Convertor+ to the gate in on the System 1m. This synth also has CV in (pitch), and pitch envelope in, so I can see how to connect the System 1m inputs to the Convertor+ CV outputs.

Now look at the "gate input" description from the Mother 32 manual:

QuoteGATE INPUT

This input accepts a 0 to +5V gate signal to trigger the EG.

So which of the CV outputs on the Convertor+ would be connected to the gate input on the Mother 32, envelope or gate?

Am I missing something? Even with a rich palette of CV I/O, there is no dedicated external note on/off CV input on Mother 32, so you have to use MIDI to connect an external controller?

I have been considering different hardware synths for a while. Omnisphere supported hardware /Synth integration is an important feature for me. Now with the Convertor+ I am also looking for CV inputs on the synth so I can control it fully.

I am going to find a used Roland System 1m to use with a Convertor+. It hits both of these requirements for around $700. It also will help me learn a lot about synth architecture.

Once the good people at Sonicsmith releases the CV to MIDI module, I will have Kontakt and my soft synths as sound sources.






Hamer Duotone, Brian Moore i213, Taylor 710 BCE 

VG-99, FC-300, RMC Fanout
RJM Mastermind GT10
Kemper Profiling Amp
Radial JDV Mk3, X-Amp
Mesa Recto Pre + 20/20
68 Fender Bandmaster (AB763)
Marshal AS80R

UA Apollo X6, Twin X, Logic Pro, Luna, Melodyne Studio

chrish

#13
No midi needed. Guitar to midi to slow with latency measured in milliseconds where as the converter+ ACO chip measures latency (responds) in microseconds.


The moog, and Behringer Model D are both scaled to 1 volt per octave to determine pitch of the oscillator. ( a synth like the Korg ms-20 I believe uses a hertz scale so the converter+ would not trigger oscillator pitch in the korg unless you have another module that changes the scaling)

The converter+ sends out a 1 volt/ octave cv pitch translation from the guitar and inputs to the 1 volt /octave input on the moog or the Boog.

Here's how the Moog mother 32 manual described that 1 volt per octave input.

" with all the internal control signals at 0V, a -5 to + 5V control voltage at this input will sweep the vco frequency from 8 Hertz to 8K Hertz (10 Octaves)."

So whatever voltage is received (including pitch bends modulating control voltage) controls the pitch of the  oscillator.

The converter has an envelope follower. So it's basically following whatever the envelope of the audio input and converting that envelope to control voltage. Input that cv to the voltage controlled amp (VCA) on the moog or the boog.

So as the string volume Fades out so will the synthesizer volume.

The gate out goes to gate in and that voltage triggers the moog envelope generator.

If you wanted to only use the audio in on the mother 32 or the Behringer Model D in order to process the audio in through  the filter section, you'd still have to provide a gate signal.  I guess it could be thought of as a midi note on off message without the midi pitch information.

I was confused on why the converter+ has both a gate  and trigger out.

So I asked sonicsmith and here's what they said.

"Yes, the pitch will go to the 1V/oct and the ENV to the VCA (or VCF).
With the gate out of the ConVertor into the GATE in of the 32, you can try it but remember that the sound has to fall below the threshold in order to create a new note happen (the ENV is fully continuous so threshold doesn't matter).

You can try the gate out from the ConVertor or try also gate out of a sequencer for automatic gating.
See how you like those options.

Good luck and let me know how that works for you.

Cheers
-Noam"

I guess if you sent the gate to the voltage control amplifier (VCA in) it would follow whatever the envelope setting is on the Moog or the boog.

Then by sending the env out on the converter+ to the VCF, the string Dynamics would control the filter. The converter also has a setting to invert the envelope out.

Hope I got all that right and Corrections or clarifications are welcome.

scratch17

From Noam Lavi @ sonicsmith:

Quote
It's hard to know what the manufacturer means sometimes but I can assume it is a CV input which can control the speed of the attack and the release.

I know Cycfi pickups and they look great for what they do.

I'm planning the MIDI expander so it'll be able to receive 6 word outputs [from 6 Convertors] and make polyphonic MIDI happen but it's only in development stages right now.

I will make it possible to join 6 ConVertors together with a single MIDVertor for a polyphonic MIDI out so if you like Cycfi pickup feel free to grab it.


Fantastic news.

@chrish, I want to convert CV to MIDI so I can access Kontakt and my soft synths. I'd prefer not to have to buy 6 Behringer Model Ds to get a polyphonic Mini Moog. I'd rather use six instances of Arturia's Mini V.

The conversion from pitch of the string will still be to CV, not MIDI. So it should be as fast as any MIDI keyboard is when accessing either software or hardware sound sources.
Hamer Duotone, Brian Moore i213, Taylor 710 BCE 

VG-99, FC-300, RMC Fanout
RJM Mastermind GT10
Kemper Profiling Amp
Radial JDV Mk3, X-Amp
Mesa Recto Pre + 20/20
68 Fender Bandmaster (AB763)
Marshal AS80R

UA Apollo X6, Twin X, Logic Pro, Luna, Melodyne Studio

chrish

#15
I'd be interested in that as well.

it would be cool if they came up for the solution for glitch free and fast responce time  via guitar  to control voltage and then control voltage to MIDI.

I would use that set up for hardware synth midi in to trigger my Korg Triton, Korg wavestation and a few other modules lying around.

Dialing in 6 Behringer Model Ds for polyphonic capabilities, one model D for each string, would be problematic.


There's something to be said about working with a mono synth as a stand-alone instrument.


However there are a number of midi to cv  polyphonic analog synths out there.

Or just use the 6 converter + units as an oscillator basis into filters, LFO, wave folders etc for poly modular synthesis.

scratch17

@chrish said:

QuoteDialing in 6 Behringer Model Ds for polyphonic capabilities, one model D for each string, would be problematic.

From the website under features of the Model D:

Quote16-voice Poly Chain allows combining multiple synthesizers for up to 16 voice polyphony

Looks good, right? Not so fast.

Check out the video on this gearnews post:

https://www.gearnews.com/behringer-rolls-out-the-first-model-d-firmware-update/

Start at about the 3:10 mark to get to the update and poly chaining description. It is well worth it to watch the entire video from that point. I learned a lot about the issues involved and also about CV and the Model D. I am finally starting to understand how to use CV to control multiple synths and their components.

It turns out that the Behringer implementation is flawed. The video's author Tim Shoebridge explains and demonstrates these flaws. However, he also demonstrates a poly chaining method that works using CV instead of MIDI.

Note that at the end of the video, he states that the CV method of poly chaining works with any synth that has CV and gate inputs. That means you can poly chain mono and polyphonic synths.

Hamer Duotone, Brian Moore i213, Taylor 710 BCE 

VG-99, FC-300, RMC Fanout
RJM Mastermind GT10
Kemper Profiling Amp
Radial JDV Mk3, X-Amp
Mesa Recto Pre + 20/20
68 Fender Bandmaster (AB763)
Marshal AS80R

UA Apollo X6, Twin X, Logic Pro, Luna, Melodyne Studio

jim-analog

#17

Greetings,

  Lost track of who is looking to do MIDI to CV vs CV to MIDI, but came across this device for the first scenario:

http://www.encoreelectronics.com/cont_expres.html

Will output 8 channels of CV, etc. from MIDI input. Not inexpensive, but seems to be a good solution with both V/Oct and Hz/V. I'd been looking for something like that back when I still had my OB 4Voice SEM rack; would have been perfect.

  For a device to go the other way, here is something to look into:

https://delptronics.com/cv2midi.php

There are likely more options for each direction, we should put together a list particularly if anyone has first hand experience with them. I've used both Kenton and Doepfer products for MIDI to CV with good success.


Regards, Jim

GuitarBuilder

Quote from: scratch17 on March 11, 2019, 08:35:48 PM
@chrish said:

From the website under features of the Model D:

Looks good, right? Not so fast.

Check out the video on this gearnews post:

https://www.gearnews.com/behringer-rolls-out-the-first-model-d-firmware-update/

Start at about the 3:10 mark to get to the update and poly chaining description. It is well worth it to watch the entire video from that point. I learned a lot about the issues involved and also about CV and the Model D. I am finally starting to understand how to use CV to control multiple synths and their components.

It turns out that the Behringer implementation is flawed. The video's author Tim Shoebridge explains and demonstrates these flaws. However, he also demonstrates a poly chaining method that works using CV instead of MIDI.

Note that at the end of the video, he states that the CV method of poly chaining works with any synth that has CV and gate inputs. That means you can poly chain mono and polyphonic synths.

I suspect a better option is to use single-string processing with a Convertor + and Model D for each string.  This avoids any issues with Model D polyphonic processing.  The Eurorack Convertor + would be the right ticket!
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

scratch17

@GuitarBuilder said:

QuoteI suspect a better option is to use single-string processing with a Convertor + and Model D for each string.

Watch the end of the video. That is exactly what he does.

Quoting myself:

Quotehe also demonstrates a poly chaining method that works using CV instead of MIDI.

This is not just about playing a synth at a show with your guitar.

The Convertor+ has the potential to provide guitarists with far better songwriting and arranging tools than ever before.

The ability to play any sampled instrument with a guitar as accurately as a keyboardist will be a game changer. In fact, guitarists can utilize many playing techniques that require an external controller like a mod wheel on a keyboard. For example, with guitar, vibrato is in your fingertips. So guitarists will actually have an advantage when it comes to expressiveness.

That's what I want this for.
Hamer Duotone, Brian Moore i213, Taylor 710 BCE 

VG-99, FC-300, RMC Fanout
RJM Mastermind GT10
Kemper Profiling Amp
Radial JDV Mk3, X-Amp
Mesa Recto Pre + 20/20
68 Fender Bandmaster (AB763)
Marshal AS80R

UA Apollo X6, Twin X, Logic Pro, Luna, Melodyne Studio

GuitarBuilder

Quote from: scratch17 on March 12, 2019, 12:22:32 PM
Watch the end of the video. That is exactly what he does.

With all due respect, not quite!  He triggers 4 Model Ds with a MIDI-CV converter.  I'm suggesting dedicated 6 ACOs, one for each string, that output individual string pitch, gate, trigger CVs into 6 Model Ds.  No MIDI involved!
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

chrish

#21
Quote from: GuitarBuilder on March 12, 2019, 01:48:33 PM
With all due respect, not quite!  He triggers 4 Model Ds with a MIDI-CV converter.  I'm suggesting dedicated 6 ACOs, one for each string, that output individual string pitch, gate, trigger CVs into 6 Model Ds.  No MIDI involved!
that's alot of knob turning and switches to operate. :D

How about 6 converter+ and 6 cv to midi controlling 1 analog polysynth with patch memory.

Or 6 converter+ controlling 6 analog mono synths with patch memory.

Oops, starting to get expensive. :)

I going to listen to the sy300 raw waveforms again.

scratch17

QuoteWith all due respect, not quite! He triggers 4 Model Ds with a MIDI-CV converter.

You are correct. Sorry, I missed that he was using a keyboard via MIDI to control the Model D's.

I'm suggesting dedicated 6 ACOs, one for each string, that output individual string pitch, gate, trigger CVs into 6 Model Ds.  No MIDI involved!

Yes that works fine. But it limits you to modular and semi modular hardware synths.

That's why I am hoping that Sonicsmith does indeed release a CV to MIDI module that will open this technology to and MIDI controllable device, hardware or software.

Quotethat's alot of knob turning and switches to operate. :D

How about 6 converter+ and 6 cv to midi controlling 1 analog polysynth with patch memory.

Or 6 converter+ controlling 6 analog mono synths with patch memory.

Oops, starting to get expensive. :)

How about 6 converter+ and 6 Cv to midi controlling a NordStage 3 Compact? Now that would be really expensive!
Hamer Duotone, Brian Moore i213, Taylor 710 BCE 

VG-99, FC-300, RMC Fanout
RJM Mastermind GT10
Kemper Profiling Amp
Radial JDV Mk3, X-Amp
Mesa Recto Pre + 20/20
68 Fender Bandmaster (AB763)
Marshal AS80R

UA Apollo X6, Twin X, Logic Pro, Luna, Melodyne Studio

jim-analog



Greetings,

Yes, THIS is the main issue AFTER we optimize the front end conversion (which hopefully may be realized by the SonicSmith ACO chips). My thoughts had been along the lines of using 6X  SSM or Curtis type chips for each basic synth function and a Digital control buss to keep them each at the same value.

   Just like Dave Smith did with the Prophet 5, which opened up the world of true polyphonic keyboards with full patch memory, global tuning, etc.. Imagine each "voice board" being in multiples of 6 chips each and a single knob/switch/whatever that would control each function for all 6 at once.

Going back in time,  I had purchased a Prophet 600 not long after they came out due to this exact ability and the 6 voices to allow for one per guitar string. I used the MIDI output of the Roland GR700 to then drive the Prophet simultaneously. It was pretty good, considering the slowness of the multiple conversion processes. But,  if played with those delays in mind, I really didn't find it all that limiting for the most part. I of course had to adjust my playing technique, but that seemed a fair trade to gain the huge sound manipulation/creation ability of the rig.

I don't see any reason using everything available in the current state of technology that this type of system couldn't be optimized and work just great, with far less latency and complication than I was happily accepting.

Quote from: chrish on March 12, 2019, 02:30:37 PM
that's alot of knob turning and switches to operate. :D


Regards, Jim

chrish

#24
The pitch tracking of the sonicsmith converter+ internal osc  is very good, I'd say as good as the old Roland GR300.

However,I've had  some strange tracking issues with a Moog mother 32 and Moog Slim Phatty when trying to use the converter+ pitch cv out into the moogs.

The Sonicsmith Pitch Out CV output signal is designed for 1 volt per octave pitch tracking and the Moog mother 32 also has a 1 volt per octave pitch CV input.

However the Moog Mother 32 pitch cv input signal is designed to accept bipolar voltage at -5 V to +5v whereas the eurorack standard is unipolar at 0 to 10 volts.

Here is Sonicsmith description of the pitch CV output.

"The pitch CV output of our synths is calibrated to be 1V per octave.

Notice though that our synths work on a 9V power supply so our outputs will have the following voltage ranges:

Pitch CV: 0-8V"

I believe all that means is the Sonic Smith will track  8 octaves instead of the standard of 10 octaves (10v at 1v/octave).

Fortunately, if you want to use the mother 32 or other moog gear with the sonicsmith converter+, the following eurorack scaler may make this possible.

https://www.ericasynths.lv/shop/eurorack-modules/by-series/pico-series/pico-mscale/


"Erica Synths Pico MSCALE (Moog Scale, to be specific) is precision scaler to adapt Moog Mother 32 to eurorack standard 1V/oct control voltages.
Features
Precision scaler to adapt Moog Mother 32 1V/oct to eurorack standard
Moog to eurorack section
Eurorack to Moog section
High precision, high temperature stability
Skiff friendly, compact design
People who own Moog Mother 32 know that it requires -5V - +5V on 1V/oct input to operate in full range, while the eurorack standard is 0V - +10V. So, to control Moog Mother 32 from a eurorack sequencer you need to bias a sequencer output for 5 volts down. And vice versa – Moog Mother 32 sequencer outputs -5V - +5V on 1V/oct output, and, if you wish to control some eurorack VCO from Moog Mother 32, you need to bias it 5 volts up. This is exactly what MSCALE does – it has two sections – upper one adds 5V to the input voltage, other subtracts 5V form the input voltage. Of course, the module is not limited for use with Moog Mother 32 only. You can use it as a regular eurorack precision voltage scaler."