Gp10 midi out note duration

Started by Bit Flicker, July 31, 2016, 04:35:41 PM

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Bit Flicker

Off topic for a second. Gumtown did you just buy the last GK3B from the Rockshop? My friend just rang them up and they said the last one was sent to Whangarei and that just made me think of you !!!! :P

gumtown

Yup..  ;D
Last one in the country..
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Bit Flicker

That's so funny. It just goes to show how small NZ really is! He will be a bit gutted. I just installed one on his fender jazz bass and thought it was so good he wanted one on his better bass. He was the chap that had the gr55 off me. He would be better off with an internal kit but they are way more expensive to get hold of.

I think the Rockshop have been struggling to shift their 13 pin gear as I have bought at heavily discounted prices  ;D

Back on topic.
I've just been playing with the gr55 to trigger my soft synths and it is a joy compared to how the gp10 is functioning.
This has got to be a faulty unit surely?

Elantric

Did you try a factory reset of your GP-10?


Bit Flicker

Yes. I did a factory reset. It made no difference. I will hook the gp10 up to another Mac to rule that out. If it stays as bad I will replace the unit and if it's still just as bad I will cry  :'(

Bit Flicker

I have tested this on a different Mac that has basic stuff on it for work and not music, so there shouldn't have been any issues with conflicts with drivers etc.
It still cut short the note duration.
I will get the unit exchanged as soon as I can!

I'll update later.

Elantric

#31
QuoteI have tested this on a different Mac that has basic stuff on it for work and not music, so there shouldn't have been any issues with conflicts with drivers etc.
It still cut short the note duration.

It still might be a bum setting in your GP-10's System  / Master area 

Thats why its important to :


1) Save your work

2 ) Disconnect GP-10's USB cable from all computers

3 ) Then do a GP-10 "Factory Reset" of both the "SYSTEM+PATCH" Settings



QuoteI have tested this on a different Mac that has basic stuff on it for work and not music, so there shouldn't have been any issues with conflicts with drivers etc.It still cut short the note duration.

Here on my Godin xtSA with GP-10 on my 2013 MacBook Pro with OSX Mavericks  triggering AU instruments in Logic-X, I can play synth notes as long as the string is vibrating, much longer than 10 seconds any fret.   

matches this GP-10 users demo here



Bit Flicker

Did as you suggested. I even did the reset for all three options, just in case. No difference. I think there is little left that I could try. I haven't tried giving up yet. Maybe that will work!

Bit Flicker

Update

Tested on a different GP-10 unit and the duration of the notes on both GP-10 when fretted at the 12th fret is very poor in comparison to the GR-55.

I have tested everything with two different guitars to cross check that the guitar is not a factor and I have to conclude that the duration of a note on a GP-10 is not very good. I'm making this statement based on a very small sample size i.e. two units but what are the odds of two faulty units?

There are many good reasons for using the GP-10 for live instead of the GR-55 but the note duration is a very disappointing discovery that will require a workaround. When the GP-10 is supposed to be an improvement on tracking why is it that the note duration suffers?

I am waiting for GP-10 owners out there to show me that I have something wrong but until then I will have to settle with the fact that my GP-10 and the one tested is inferior in note duration to the GR-55.

This might be worth putting into a new thread as I think this one has probably run its course.

Thanks to those that have helped.

chrish

Thanks for reporting your results.

Brak(E)man

#35
I've tried mine now above 12- 17 fret and I get the same length playing soft synths
as playing Gr300 emulation.

Until the string dies.

I haven't ever looked at the midi settings
I used no Fernandes sustainer
And the guitar is a steinberger Hohner
With an internal Gk2



So I guess there's something off with yours.

I don't have a Gr55 anymore
but longer sustain then the string rings
I guess is only possible with a midi sustain pedal
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

jassy

Tried it briefly and I get pretty short note duration playing above the 10 fret, much shorter than the string naturally rings, not a time consistent but its strange. Comparing with MidiGuitar software were the not last much longer.
Tried changing some parameters (low velo etc) without any change.
The behaviour of the guitar to midi conversion seems to be better in general but in the lower notes is not good really, is a nightmare how it trigger false notes (mainly open strings) while midi guitar doesnt trigger all that I think overall Midi Guitar is much better although it keeps with some errors not resolved yet (and the last version is 7/8 months old).

shawnb

I don't have a GP-10, & this may or may not be pertinent...  In my experience, whenever MIDI note duration is significantly shorter than what you'd hear thru an amp, I suspect setup.  In particular, low action resulting in slight fret buzz often cuts MIDI notes short - even though you can still hear the string ringing. 

I've even run into this with my FTP. 

If you could try raising action or try a different guitarist's GK-3 (with a different setup, to a different guitarist's tastes) that may help diagnose. 

Just another possibility. 
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Bit Flicker

Brak(E)man,
Thank you for your input. The mp3 was useful to help gage the note duration other people are getting from the synth modelling. I would say mine was about the same as yours in duration using similar type synth sounds. The synth patches that have long decays or time effects (reverb, delay) is that it artificially lengthens the duration of the sound even when the note has switched off. For synth sounds that are dry with an abrupt decay then the note duration is much more noticeably truncated or shortened (compared to the natural resonance of the string)

I have now discovered that this is the case for both soft synth triggered by generated midi and built in synth modelling in the GP-10

Midi sustain pedal and a non additive sustain/hold have been used on the soft synth as a workaround but it is not what I would say is a satisfactory solution.

I would like to have the natural sustain of the string and the midi notes generated to have equivalency so that I have a physical reference for my more expressive playing style. That, in my opinion, is not an unreasonable desire for the midi note to match the natural tone as this is kind of the point of having guitar to midi in the first place. For me the Gr-55 does this aspect better.

jassy,
I have spent time with a workaround using guitar midi and have to say the note duration matches the natural tone in a very predictable way that is a pleasure to play. I have found the tracking speed and accuracy to be inferior to the GP-10 (i still need time to perfect this but there will always be limitations).

To improve the polyphonic recognition of the jam origin (guitar midi) i utilised the hexaphonic outputs from the GP-10 into 6 separate instances of the program inside of bidule and then routed the midi out to IAC midi on the mac. I then triggered my soft synths in MainStage. This works very well but is very processor hungry, as you might expect, but no audio glitches or maxing out. However, I would want more cpu headroom for a live show so this is not a viable option.

My delay in responding is due to the fact my Vibesware resonator just arrived and I've been playing with it all day. It resonates the string indefinitely so that when in use I can achieve ultimate sustain on any fret for natural string or midi generation. Layering in slow attack guitar with beautifully morphing harmonics over synths is exceptionally expressive and playable. It's still a workaround but also something completely different that is very creative in its own right.

The Vibeswave brings another dimension to my sound but is another thing to have to navigate and deal with when playing on stage. My personal cpu is starting to run out of headroom but at least practice will improve that situation.

I suppose this all comes down to playability and how well something suits my needs.

shawnb,
Cheers for that point. I have been thinking the same, which is why I have used two different set ups on different guitars. They were however set up by me so that could ultimately be the cause. The action on one guitar with internal kit is very low but the natural sustain and sound would indicate no fret buzz. The other guitar has relatively high action with an external gk3 unit. Both generate the same results. Disappointing on the GP-10 and better on the GR-55.

Question
If the string is really close (less than 0.2mm) to the hex pickup can this have a dampening effect on the string that would cause the midi to cut short? My strings don't touch the pickup when fretted at the 24th fret and are all within specified maximum distances.

Elantric

#39
QuoteMy delay in responding is due to the fact my Vibesware resonator just arrived and I've been playing with it all day. It resonates the string indefinitely so that when in use I can achieve ultimate sustain on any fret for natural string or midi generation. Layering in slow attack guitar with beautifully morphing harmonics over synths is exceptionally expressive and playable. It's still a workaround but also something completely different that is very creative in its own right.

The Vibesware brings another dimension to my sound but is another thing to have to navigate and deal with when playing on stage. My personal cpu is starting to run out of headroom but at least practice will improve that situation.


More info about  Vibesware Resonator here

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=2925.msg14803#msg14803


QuoteIf the string is really close (less than 0.2mm) to the hex pickup can this have a dampening effect on the string that would cause the midi to cut short?

Yes - 1mm is recommended distance (gap) from top of Gk hex PU and bottom of strings

Bit Flicker

Ok so my tolerance on the first string when fretted at the 24th fret is 0.4mm. I don't think that this is the issue though.

Doing another AB between the GP-10 and the GR-55, the GR-55 plays predictably with note duration that is similar to the string resonance.

For my playing needs the tracking between the two is not as significant as the difference in note duration. I suspect that the improvements to the GP-10s tracking speed comes at a cost to note duration. It might have something to do with how a note is detected by adjusting the threshold at which a note off message is given. If a note has a lower threshold for off then it stands to reason the detection of the next note triggered will be quicker or more accurate. It's a theory!!

So now I have to decide what is more important. Better ac modelling in the gp10 with a smaller foot print and a hexaphonic output or better vst playability in the gr55?

Some of the things I have discovered regarding the discrepancy in the tracking might be worth validating with more user data so that others choosing between the two know what they are getting. It might just be of interest to others to put the findings into another thread headed, "GP-10 v GR-55 tracking differences and midi handling."

From this point I will have to make my mind up about returning the GP-10 and getting hold of a GR-55 again, or not.

This is not a clear decision for me but I can't have both so what to do is going to be on me. Flip flop, flip flop.

admin

#41
IMHO -24 fret neck is creating a  "fret slap" situation for your sustaining strings and limiting your sustain during guitar to midi performance

Also not experiencing any difference in note duration of GR-55 Guitar to MIDI vs GP-10 Guitar to MIDI performance here

Godin LGX-SA With 13 pin cable into  GP-10 at pitch , no Alt tuning and GP-10 feeding a Mac with Logic-X triggering an AU synth with pa monitors at gig SPL levels which re-energizes the string vibration and adds sustain ( not headphones , which will shorten note duration )

Longer than 3seconds

I get synth sound as long as the string is still vibrating

No vibrating string = no sound

Bit Flicker

sec6
Thanks for the input. I have to admit the only thing I don't like about the GP-10 at the moment is this midi out phenomenon. What's needed here is some imperial evidence from GP-10 users and their units as I can well believe that there could be a batch/ production number issue. Some might perform better than others and not just due to setup.

Given that setup is such a large contributing factor to achieving good results in hexaphonic gear I think Roland would dismiss any findings or patterns as user error and not with their units. Given that this is also not a major issue for the majority of users I can't see it ever being given a second thought.

admsustainiac
Other than getting hold of other peoples GK equipment and testing more I can't see why the same setup playing on the GR-55 plays that much better than on the GP-10. If it was fret slap then that would produce similar results on both, i'd have thought.


Brak(E)man

#43
Quote from: Bit Flicker on August 15, 2016, 04:43:10 PM
Brak(E)man,
Thank you for your input. The mp3 was useful to help gage the note duration other people are getting from the synth modelling. I would say mine was about the same as yours in duration using similar type synth sounds. The synth patches that have long decays or time effects (reverb, delay) is that it artificially lengthens the duration of the sound even when the note has switched off. For synth sounds that are dry with an abrupt decay then the note duration is much more noticeably truncated or shortened (compared to the natural resonance of the string)

I have now discovered that this is the case for both soft synth triggered by generated midi and built in synth modelling in the GP-10

Midi sustain pedal and a non additive sustain/hold have been used on the soft synth as a workaround but it is not what I would say is a satisfactory solution.

I would like to have the natural sustain of the string and the midi notes generated to have equivalency so that I have a physical reference for my more expressive playing style. That, in my opinion, is not an unreasonable desire for the midi note to match the natural tone as this is kind of the point of having guitar to midi in the first place. For me the Gr-55 does this aspect better.


from note on to note off on 18 fret there's 5 seconds which matches the strings envelope without any
fx like sustain , reverb etc or sustain through volume.
Unless I use volume or Fernandes Sustainer there's no way to get a longer sustain,
I have a string height of 6 mm at the 12th fret string gauge .11-.52 also I never change strings
these are probably 15-20 years old
It's about what I've had with all the Guitar to midi , like Zeta Mirror, Roland, Casio , Jamorigin etc.
Never tried my GR55 in this aspect since the trig IMO where way too crappy and all I could get where
glitches and couldn't use my fretless guitars


I don't get 3 seconds in this test I get 5 seconds
I can most likely get 8-10 seconds at 17th fret
if I where to play through speakers instead of headphones
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

jassy

#44
Quote from: Brak(E)man on August 16, 2016, 05:37:22 AM
I have a string height of 6 mm at the 12th fret string gauge .11-.52 also I never change strings
these are probably 15-20 years old
6 mm!?! really, no mistake here?  I do not think I could even play with that distance, my guitars have 1.75-2 mm high at the 12th fret! and you can play ... fast!
Well maybe we have here the explanation of why the results are so different.
But wait, 15-20 years old strings?  OMG how different are each player!  ;D

admin

#45
QuoteI can most likely get 8-10 seconds at 17th fret
if I where to play through speakers instead of headphones

Yes that's important


Godin LGX-SA With 13 pin cable into  GP-10 at pitch , no Alt tuning and GP-10 feeding a Mac with Logic-X triggering an AU synth with pa monitors at gig Sound Pressure Levels (important)  which re-energizes the string vibration and adds sustain ( not headphones alone  , which will shorten note duration )


I get synth sound as long as the string is still vibrating (Longer than 3 seconds)


No vibrating string = no sound

Brak(E)man

#46
Quote from: admsustainiac on August 16, 2016, 08:18:39 AM
I get synth sound as long as the string is still vibrating (Longer than 3 seconds)
No vibrating string = no sound


Exactly like mine but I only use studio monitors
at low level but that changes the game a lot.

The test I did was with headphones though


Quote from: jassy on August 16, 2016, 08:15:03 AM
6 mm!?! really, no mistake here?  I do not think I could even play with that distance, my guitars have 1.75-2 mm high at the 12th fret! and you can play ... fast!
Well maybe we have here the explanation of why the results are so different.
But wait, 15-20 years old strings?  OMG how different are each player!  ;D

No mistake 6 mm gets the sound out there, also I used to have string gauge .16-.72 but that warped the necks

On my fretlesses I use .08-.38 halfrounds primarily due to extra sustain

And 15-20 y old strings sounds the same everyday
that , the work spared and the expense are the winners.
There's one more factor, I've always had the string sensitivity
very high, sometimes into clipping, that might help with midi trig I'm not sure
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Bit Flicker

So here is my workaround. Well not really because it's no longer using the gp10 pitch to midi to trigger soft synths.
I had played with the jam origin stuff for a day (v1) and thought it might work better if I ran 6 instances of it in mono mode for each of the hex pu strings. It worked very nicely for sustained notes but tracking still didn't feel real.
I read the thread on the jam origin here from start to finish which convinced me that I should invest in the full version v2.
Having just spent a heap on the gp10 this felt a bit sour as it seemed like it should all be in the box I just bought.
The improvements in the v2 were worth it. I played with a few ways of getting the clean audio into the MG and found that utilising the raw hex pu output via usb from the gp10 was horrible.

I had the idea of using bidule to route the 6 channels into the bidule internal mixer so I could carefully balance the string outputs to a much greater degree than the sensitivity settings in the gp10 were giving me, to then pass that as a single mixed channel to an instance of MG2 for pitch to midi processing. This then puts the midi into IAC midi and then used in mainstage.
This gives me great control of the tracking and playability because of the different points of adjustability.
With dynamics being of importance it was great to be able to control the ghost notes pre mainstage and then using the midi input parameters in Mainstage to balance the velocity ranges each instrument has.
I just need to set a control for alt tunings in MG2 so that when I access them in the gp10 they are replicated in the midi. (This is one snag of using the raw hex pu signals to generate midi in MG)

As for note duration all notes last as long as the string envelope does, at any fret. There is a bit of an odd re triggering of low notes as they decay to nothing but I will work on that.

My rig is now quite a joy to play and is working so well that I might be able to start using it live. It's only taken my lifetime to get this far so why stop now?

Thanks again for all those that have contributed to helping me with this issue and eventual solution either directly or indirectly. The wealth of information and support at vguitarforums is undeniably excellent.

Vaultnaemsae

Hi, Bit Flicker.  I realize this is a slightly old post but hope you might be able to go into some more detail about your rig (GP-10 + Bidule/MG2)? Seems a very clever solution. I don't really understand the difference between using the clean divided/hex audio from 6 strings' signals and what sounds like the same thing but with Bidule. I searched around a bit regarding Bidule and am still not really sure what it does...seems like a virtual patchbay/VST host -- but I may misunderstand.

What are the different points of adjustability?

I've been wrestling with the GP-10 lately. Very disappointed with its pitch-to-MIDI capabilities and a few other things that we've all heard mentioned before. Likewise, it has some great points -- but always coupled with a feeling of being shortchanged by Roland/Boss. I'm really trying to find a way to make it work as it seems to have the potential to be a very effective all-in-one solution (coupled with a laptop)-- if only the pitch-to-MIDI wasn't so damn slow and clunky!
Vaultnaemsae's SoundCloud:
https://soundcloud.com/vaultnaemsae

Bit Flicker

Hi,
I got your message and replied to it before reading your message on this thread.

I have not needed to visit this forum after I found my better solution to the pitch to midi issue I was having. I haven't moved away from JamOrigin and it keeps getting better. I did move away from using the 6 instances of it for each string so I could have alt tuning options for external synths because with everything else I have running it was way too CPU hungry. I do have the ability to do full transposition though as this is just a case of matching the GP-10's changes with a transposing plugin (before the synths) that responds to the program changes the GP-10 puts out on patch changes. I now just use the guitar out from the GP-10 that uses the clean signal from the normal pick ups.

This really is not simple to explain. I haven't tried to explain it before as it is not a common approach. I think I might start a new thread explaining my approach as it might give others an insight into how to make music their own way.

Happy to help with your situation if I can.

All the best with your quest.