Pulled the Trigger on a Scarlett 2i4 . . .

Started by cooltouch, February 16, 2014, 08:21:38 PM

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cooltouch

I wouldn't say that I'm exactly feeling buyers remorse, but I hope I did the right thing. I've been watching a couple of auctions on eBay for Scarlett 2i4s, and bid on one that was ending tonight. I figured I would get outbid and kinda put a low max bid in because of this. But even though it was low, it was high enough. So now I'm the owner of this piece, which I hope to see in the next few days:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Focusrite-Scarlet-2i4-USB-Audio-Interface-Used-/281264913382?ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBSA:US:3160

I have the genuine camera adapter kit on order for my iPad Air, which should be arriving any day now, and I've been telling myself in my more lucid moments that I should wait and try out this Alesis iO2 that I already own, once the adapter arrives. But I got caught up in the end-of-auction frenzy and bid on this piece anyway, and now I have it -- or I will soon. Oh well, assuming it works properly, I can always put it back on eBay and sell it for at least what I paid for it, I'll bet.

So now I get to go study up on the complex procedure that Elantric has developed for using the 2i4 on just USB voltage and current.
Best,
Michael

Elantric

#1
At minimum - you will need a powered USB Hub to get the Scarlett 2i4 working with iPad+CCK

The $20 Pluggable 4 port powered USB Hub comes with a nice 2.5Amp power supply and works fine to power the Scarllett 2i4
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005P2BY5I/ref=oh_details_o09_s01_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

However, for lowest noise - avoid running the powered USB hub using an AC Mains Voltage power adapter. Instead, get an external USB Power pack. These are designed for field re-charging iPads using their 2.1Amp out USB jack, and deliver much lower noise and makes it possible to use  Scarlett 2i4 with single coil PU guitars when running Positive Grids "Bias" Amp Sim app, with acceptable low noise performance, which is not possible when using an AC Power adapter to power the USB hub. 

All details are here:

Use Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 + Fishman Tripleplay with iPad on Battery Power
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=10323.msg74428#msg74428 

cooltouch

Hey Elantric, I was on my way to read through those guidelines of yours again when I noticed this new message of yours.

I'm way ahead of you wrt the powered USB hub. I bought a 7-port hub that looks a lot like yours, except it has a line of five ports with two fitted to the top of the strip.

Yes, I've noted your use of a battery power supply. If I go with a Limeade, I'm gonna have to wait a while before I can get one of those. I've sort of spent my allotted budget -- man that $500 sure went quick -- unless the items I put up on eBay sell quickly, in which case I might be able to afford one. I see however where you recommend the RAVPower and the Qualgear, which are less than half the price of the Limeade.

I'm doing the 30-day tryout of Amazon Prime right now, and it's showing a "Prime" price of $32.99 and $29.95 respectively for those two devices. The $3 difference in price is insignificant. Given that they're both 10400mA, I'm looking to other features to see which might be the better deal. In that respect, the RAVPower appears to have the edge. It lincludes a travel charger, whereas the Qualgear doesn't. An odd omission it seems to me. Besides, the RAVPower just looks nicer.

Before I order anything else, I'm gonna give things a try with my Alesis iO2, see how that thing works out. Then when the Scarlett gets here, I'll give it a try, listening for the audio floor. And only then will I see about ordering a power supply.



Best,
Michael

Elantric

#3
QuoteIf I go with a Limeade, I'm gonna have to wait a while before I can get one of those. I've sort of spent my allotted budget

Limeade is a bit of a luxury and priced as such. i got mine during a "goldbox" sale for cheap.

There is yet another decent 120000 mAh Battery pack on sale today at Amazon for $30- details here:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3207.msg76927#msg76927

QuoteI bought a 7-port hub that looks a lot like yours, except it has a line of five ports with two fitted to the top of the strip.

Be advised that many many USB Hubs will NOT work

This is why i maintain a running database of the ones that do and the ones that dont here:

Survey of USB Hubs
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=10326.0

cooltouch

#4
Thanks for that link. I'll post a pass or fail of mine to that link once I've tried it out.

Just a quick edit here. I've tried out my 7-port no-name hub with my Alesis iO2 running into my iPad Air with the Lightning camera Adapter and everything works great. With one caveat having to do with the iO2. I'm gonna post a separate note about that, though. And I'll go ahead and include what info and photos I have of my 7-port hub over at the thread that Elantric mentioned.
Best,
Michael

cooltouch

#5
In case you're wondering, I never wrote that follow up post for my Alesis iO2. What I first thought was the interface's problem turned out to be a problem associated with one of my guitars instead. A ground problem. The sort where there's a continuous, loud buzzing that stops abruptly as soon as I touch a metal  piece on my guitar. The guitar's an acoustic-electric, however, and the only external piece of metal is the guitar jack. A previous owner had disconnected and partially removed the internal wiring. I replaced one missing wire and added an extension to an existing wire. All of the wiring inside that guitar is shielded, including the replacement wiring I used. The volume and tone pots are enclosed in a small aluminum box, so they're shielded. Even the 1/4" phono cord I plugged into the jack is of the TRS variety, so it's carrying a ground with itself. But the jack in the guitar isn't TRS-compatible. Might that be the origin of the problem?  I've used this guitar through a regular amp since I've restored it, but it was quite a while back and I don't recall if it exhibited a buzz back then. I reckon I should eliminate that as a possible origin to the problem, though.
Best,
Michael

Elantric

#6
QuoteEven the 1/4" photo cord I plugged into the jack is of the TRS variety,

That could be your noise problem

90% of acoustic / electric guitars with an endpin 1/4" output jack require using a normal Tip/Sleeve 1/4" guitar cord,

If you attempt to use a 1/4" TRS three conductor cable from guitar out to feed a balanced XLR / TRS input on an audio interface - you get lots of noise,

The Guitar output jack  expects to be shorted to the Sleeve Ground connection when a mono Tip/Sleeve guitar cord inserted into the jack
because the "Ring" connection on the guitar is designed turn on the internal battery inside the guitar.


cooltouch

#7
Thanks for that info, Elantric. How about with a guitar that is using an under-the-saddle transducer and no battery? There is a shielded lead running from the transducer to the control box, if you will, which contains a volume and tone pot, and then a shielded lead that runs from the box to the jack -- insulated lead to the Tip connector and braided ground strands to the Ring connector. The way I see it, there should be nothing on the guitar end that is affected by using a TRS cord. But if plugged into an audio interface that supports TRS to provide a balanced input, what then? I don't recall running into this problem before, running unbalanced cabling to/from balanced inputs and outputs.

Best,
Michael

Elantric

In less time it takes to type I would perform an empirical test comparing Tone and Noise comparing

A) 1/4" TRS 3 conductor cable.

B) 1/4" TS 2 conductor cable. (Normal Guitar cord).


Be sure  target destination (Amp, Audio interface, etc) is set to "Instrument" or "Guitar" setting.


cooltouch

I agree, with respect to time and everything. At the time I made that post, however, the cord and I were in one part of the house and the audio interface and guitar were in another, and I just didn't feel like uniting the two at the moment. I shall get to it in all due time, since the same situation befalls me once again.

On the plus side of things, the Scarlett 2i4 is scheduled to arrive today.
Best,
Michael

cooltouch

Well, here it is Monday and no Scarlett yet. It should have arrived last Friday. It's still morning, though, so maybe it'll arrive today.

A follow-up on that ground buzz problem I was having. I tried a few other guitars with it. It appears that the noise level tends to be specific to guitar design. That Ibanez AE405TV acoustic/electric with transducer had the loudest buzz. Next loudest is my Kramer Focus 1000, even when set to the humbucker -- and then I remembered that this guitar's strings and electronics aren't grounded with respect to each other, which might be causing its buzz. My SSS Strat was next -- still a small amount of buzz that I could silence if I touched anything metal on the guitar or the Alesis iO2. And finally I tried my Gibson SG with humbuckers. When I plugged it in -- dead silence. So, with the "proper" type of guitar, I can get the buzz to go away.
Best,
Michael

cooltouch

The Scarlett arrived today, a good deal cleaner looking than the pics of it that were shown on eBay. That's something i just don't get that I see over and over on eBay: presentation. so many sellers there don't care about what their item looks like. They'll post pics of an item covered in dust or the pics will be blurry or out of focus or the pics will show dirt or other crap on it. And then when they state that it's in "like new" condition, of course, nobody believes them and as a result they get few bidders on the item. I took a gamble on this one and it paid off. One of the pics showed a bunch of heavy marks on the top that looked like it had been used as a hockey puck or something. But whatever those marks were, the seller removed almost all of them before packing the item in its original box - something else he didn't bother showing a pic of, which probably cost him. But his laziness paid off for me because i got it for less than $120 shipped to my door. The registration was never done -- and it has to be registered in order to d/l the software that's included with it. So I registered it, so as far as Focusrite knows, I just bought it as a new item, and I've got the full warranty as well. Everybody else on eBay, except for one seller who's selling his for $142 is selling theirs for $199. So either way you want to look, I saved a decent chunk of change.


I have had the opportunity to play around with it some on my iPad Air. At this early juncture I can't really tell much difference, if any, between the Scarlett 2i4 and Alesis iO2. Functionally, they are roughly equivalent, the only difference being that the iO2 has a pair of balanced OUTs and the 2i4 has a pair of balanced OUTs plus two pair of unbalanced OUTs. The controls on the Scarlett more closely resemble the controls on my M-Audio Delta-66 PCI card's Omnibox, than they do on the Alesis. The Scarlett has pads for the main inputs, as does the Omnibox --- 20db I'm assuming. The Alesis has no pads. The Scarlett has a control that balances the monitored sound called Direct Monitor, between input and playback as a way of dealing with latency. The Alesis has a control marked Direct/USB that might be the same thing. The Scarlett's big volume knob is for "Monitor" whereas the Alesis has a separate Mains knob. My first impression of the Scarlett is that it appears to be a bit brighter and or cleaner than the Alesis, but I'll need to spend some more time comparing the two before I state that it is indeed brighter.


Oh, and lastly, I had no issues getting the Scarlett to work with my iPad Air using a powered USB strip and Apple CCK.


I'll check back in as I learn more.
Best,
Michael

Elantric

#12
Glad to hear your  Scarlett 2i4 arrived.

On my iPad Air / Scarlet 2i4 setup  - If I use a Li-Po Battery to power the USB Hub (as mentioned here:)
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=10323.0

I get significantly lower hum and noise compared to using an AC Mains Power supply.

I use Positive Grid BIAS as my Test for Guitar Audio - as this app is where the full sonic clarity of the Battery powered 24 bit Focusrite Scarlet 2i4 is revealed.

Also If I swap out the Scarlett 2i4 for my old Alesis IO|2  - with my Gibson Guitar on "10" - the sound is not so different, however its much different when the guitar volume is turned down to the 4-6 range, (like when playing clean rhythm tracks) this is where the hiss of the Alesis is more apparent, while my Scarlet 2i4 remains clean with much lower noise. this reveals the Scarlet 2i4 has better audio performance and wider dynamic range.   



cooltouch

I suspect that this second generation Alesis, which is identical to the M-Audio M-Track by the way, has a better pre-amp "floor" than the original model's. Mine is dead quiet when I'm running my SG through it and using this powered USB strip. No hiss at all regardless of what I have plugged into it. Just buzz.

When you're doing the comparison between your Scarlett and Alesis, for volume are you using the control on the guitar or the channel volume on the interface?  Me, I have a habit that dates back over 40 years of leaving my guitar volume on 10 and adjusting it instead on the amp, or in this case it would be balancing the Gain against the Main on the Alesis and on the Scarlett, I guess it would be between the Gain and Monitor (the big silver knob) controls. One thing I actually like better about the iO2 is it has a series of LEDs oriented vertically to emulate a VU meter. The Scarlet just has a back light for the channel gain knob that glows green, amber, or red. But I only saw green and red, so the amber range must be fairly narrow.

Both interfaces seem to handle clipping pretty well. I don't detect much signal degradation even after I've turned up the gain control to "10" on either.  In fact, when I'm using the Fender version of Amplitube, if I want to get more than just a faint hint of overdrive, I have to crank the gain knob up quite a ways -- the gain knob on the Scarlett or Alesis, not the one in the Fender-Amplitube app, which I've cranked up to 10 anyway by this point.  When using the Marshall-looking Amplitube app, I get a nice, smooth overdriven sound doing this same thing.

I was trying this earlier with my Strat and the sounds I was getting were decent. I've never been a big fan of Fender amps, but when overdriving that app in this fashion, I was getting a sound I could live with. I still like the overdriven sound of the Marshall-looking app much better.

Getting a decent battery so I can operate wirelessly is definitely on my to-buy list. Once I have one, I'll do an A-B test with my USB strip plugged into the battery vs. A/C.
Best,
Michael

Elantric

#14
Remember my Application is Live Guitar Amp simulator using Positive Grid Bias for actual live use, to duplicate the functionality of playing a Nice Tube Amp where i can get lots of tone and sound variations by working the guitar controls only - As Ive done since 1969

Once I launch Positive Grid Bias, and set my my audio interface controls(which in my case is Scarlett Input Gain at 12:00 o' clock, no input Pad using normal mono 1/4" guitar cord) ,I don't touch the Scarlett 2i4 again.

QuoteMe, I have a habit that dates back over 40 years of leaving my guitar volume on 10 and adjusting it instead on the amp,
If you leave the guitar on "10" you are missing out on all these sonic variations available by simply working the guitar controls  - demoed on video below:




If wanting to use BIAS for amp sim in a live situation (no noise gates ) the Noise Floor of the Audio Interface plays a major role. While I'm sure there are better Audio interfaces out there (Like an Avalon Mic Pre with an RME UCX interface ) , Im saying for my needs the Scarlett 2i4  works well in a cost / performance ratio for my needs. and is easily replaced if stolen. 




cooltouch

#15
When I wrote about my habit of leaving a guitar's knobs on 10 -- this is just a habit, but in practice things can vary quite a bit. For the first time in a few years I met with some other local musicians for an open jam session last Saturday. And thinking back on my experience, I realize that there were several instances where I was varying both the volume and the tone using guitar controls rather than amp controls. But then this dufus showed up and plugged into a big Fender amp that was about twice as loud as the one I was playing through, and he cranked it. From that point forward it became a volume battle between this guy and the drummer. I had my little 30 watt Marshall pointed directly at me and all three volume controls cranked to 10 (and of course all my guitar controls were on 10 as well) and I could barely hear myself.  This was the first time we'd ever tried this sort of thing, so nobody knew anybody else. Next time, though, before I even plug my guitar into an amp, if that guy shows up, I'm gonna read him the riot act. There were four other guitarists besides him who showed up for this jam session and none of us had much fun after he plugged in. And of course he bogarted the loud Fender while the rest of us traded off on two small Marshalls.

Regarding the first Youtube video, I know all that stuff. It's fine if you're sitting in your bedroom and not trying to be heard over a drummer (or another guitarist who happens to be deaf), where the different volume levels aren't so critical. But in a live situation, I can't vary my volume levels like that, unless the change in volume is what I'm after, and it's a change the drummer responds to!  (And maybe the deaf guitarist is taking a break.)  I leave my guitar's volume set to 10 for the most part because if I back off from 10 I tend to lose the grind I get at full volume. Of course there are times I want to lose the grind, but often I don't want to lose the volume associated with it, in which case it's nice to have an amp with switchable channels where I can switch between overdriven and clean sounds. But if I'm merely going from a "rhythm" mode to a "lead" mode, then this sort of adjustment is handy, since I usually don't want much of a grind if I'm playing chords, and I want to play rhythm at reduced volume anyway.

Regarding the tone knobs, the only time I adjust them is if I feel I'm getting too much highs. All a tone knob does is roll off the highs anyway. And if I'm getting too much highs, I'd prefer to change my setting at the amp anyway. But sometimes it's inconvenient to do so, in which case I'll use the knob on the guitar.

We all have our amp knob initial setting preferences. My preferred Marshall initial settings are much different from that first guy's.

I wrote all of the above before I watched the second video. He's more or less explaining what I mention above.

You've mentioned the BIAS app a couple of times here and I recently read a thread where you were discussing it with another member here. This seems like a very useful app. I guess I should give it a try. One of the things I don't like about Amplitube is how it introduces and amplifies amp hum and buzz. Of course, it comes with a noise gate, but you're raising the floor when using it. I even sent a complaint email to the IKM folks about this and I got some dumbshit response about how they're closely emulating the effects an amp produces, including artifacts like hums and buzzes and that because they're emulating it so closely they can't eliminate them. Yeah? BS. It's all just a bunch of 1s and 0s after all. Of course, they'll also happily sell you an optional, expensive, premium quality noise filter that will get rid of those nasty artifacts that they chose to emulate and include at no additional cost. So you'd buy the premium noise filter at some later point. What a crock.

So if BIAS emulates amp hum and buzz, I probably won't be a big fan of it, either. The price sure seems reasonable, though. One of my first thoughts was wondering why they don't code a version for PC (or Mac, far as that goes), but then I got to thinking that if I can run a line out from my iPad to my PC's audio interface, that's all I would need to get the BIAS's sound into my DAW. I see where Positive Grid makes a Jam-Up Plug that will do just that, and that they have a Jam-Up Plug HD in the pipeline that might be worth the wait because of its improved features. I'd have to get the 30-pin to Lightning adapter, though -- which I'm likely gonna need anyway. I'm thinking, though, that IKM's iRig HD is probably equivalent to the Jam-Up Plug HD. But Positive Grid's HD version might be cheaper, since their "regular version" is by about $15, plus their regular version is superior to the IKM iRig anyway since PG uses the 30-pin port instead of the headphone jack.



Best,
Michael

Elantric

After using every IOS guitar amp sim  -  Jamup Pro became my #1 choice in 2013 

Then Bias arrived and this removed the veil and revealed a very accurate tube amp emulation. Last time I was this excited about a tube amp replacement was when i got my Vox ToneLab LE. in 2007.
BIAS is the only app that really has me excited about using an Ipad for impromptu live shows -

Suggest read my posts on the Bias thread - all remain relevant today 
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=9903.0