Warning - Wrong GK 13 Cable may damage your GR/GP/VG Processor
Be sure you purchased a genuine Roland GK compatible 13 pin DIN cable
Get an ohm meter and verify all 13 pins are wired "1:1" at both sides of the cable, and no pins are shorted together on the same end
Know that most 13 PIN DIN cables are designed for Kenwood / Clarion Car Stereo CD changers - and those are NOT compatible with Roland Gk Guitar Synths
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3132.msg28280#msg28280 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3132.msg28280#msg28280)
(http://image.pinout.net/pinout_13_pin_files/Clarion_C-Bus.gif)
if you examine the details of the GK-3, it becomes apparent MIDI data messages have never existed in ANY 13 pin interface from Roland or Any other manufacturer at anytime.
Essentially the GK-3 is a multichannel analog Buffer/Line driver !
(https://i.postimg.cc/mr3Hfc0h/1372711709-1341344606-GK3-zps389eff64.png)
In 2018 - the best GK 13 cables are
PRIMOVA - GK-13 - Codesmart's Excellent GK 13 pin Cables
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=13234.0
D13 Gittler Synth/MIDI Cable 13-pin Din Roland Ready
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01CPKKVSI/ref=s9_acsd_hps_bw_c_x_2_w
Best-Tronics MIDI13-XX
https://btpa.com/MIDI13-XX.html?category_id=170
(http://old.snapagogo.com/uploads/source/2672013/1380080899_1567413277_gk2schem1da0.jpg)
Clean and Maintain your GK-13 Cable
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3132.0
These tips below prevent GK 13 cable noise issues manifesting at an important gig
* Order quality GK-13 cables
Gittler GK-13 Superior Cable (WITH a right angle connector)
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=11243.0
or
BTPA GK-13 cable
http://btpa.com/13-Pin-Midi/
or
Primovasound GK-13 cable ( send a PM to member Codesmart)
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=13234.0
* Use 13-PIN PLUG & SOCKET DUST COVERS
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=18487.msg136189#msg136189
(http://www.separate-strings.co.uk/Plugcover.gif)
(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah17/frummox/Covers_zpskxfmm9uk.jpg)
* Extend the life of your new GK-13 cable by winding them properly to avoid internal kinks that can damage internal wires middle of the cable
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=17715.msg126215#msg126215
https://youtu.be/B2SUoAvGxVs
* Store GK-13 Cables in a separate hard case to prevent them getting crushed during transit
(http://www.slappa.com/Full_headphone_front_350x350.jpg)
* Carry a small can of Caig DeOxit
(http://www.all-spec.com/UserFiles/Images/Products/caig-8211_dn5ms15_DV_WebXL.jpg)
* Perform the GK 13 pin Cable Maintenance Tips.
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3132.0
The Ferrite core is typically inside the VG-99 shipping box, it gets applied to the Gk13 cable near the VG-99 , to aid in preventing RF EMI radiation generated by the VG-99's CPU from interrupting local radio and TV reception. Its due to more stringent FCC/ CE RF emission standards for consumer gear.
Roland has a Ferrite core PDF doc with instructions on how to use it. (see attached file)
There is a basic underlying control element at work with all Gk 13 pin Processors which is important to understand
Anytime you change from Guitar Mode to Synth mode, its important to understand the signals do NOT get switched
Instead, the Roland / Boss design employs this global axiom - mute the unwanted signal Path
This is done anytime you move the Three way "Guitar/Mix/Synth" switch on the GK-3 , or move the Gk VOL pot on the GK-3.
These user controls are actually altering important DC Control Voltages on the target GK Processor ( VG-99. GR-55. GP-10), whose DSP's are performing "VCA"( Voltage Controlled Amplifier) adjustable gain blocks to control the volume or mute each portion of the Guitar and Synth signals on GR-55
So a wonky GK 13 pin cable , or wonky Three way switch on GK-3 , or wonky Synth volume or ( on Fender GC-1/Roland Ready Strat) a wonky 1/4" switching output jack all could conspire to mute your volume at the gig.
--
Axon Docs (see attached)
AXON 13-pin Pickup Connector Specification
1. Pinning 13-pin Connector
1 Analog signal e-string (highest frequency)
2 Analog signal B-string
3 Analog signal G-string
4 Analog signal D-string
5 Analog signal A-string
6 Analog signal E-string (lowest Frequency)
7 Analog signal guitar pickup ("normal" magnetic pickup)
8 DC-level for synthesizer volume (wavetable volume)
9 Not connected
10 Down switch signal (switch to GND)
11 Up switch signal (switch to GND)
12 +7 V DC power supply for OP's
13 -7 V DC power supply for OP's
(14) Shield serves as GND
2. Analog string signals
Source impedance pickup side should be around 100 Ω
• Input impedance of AXON ADC is 20 KΩ
• Maximum voltage swing is +-2.5Vpp
3. Normal guitar pickup signal
• Source impedance Pickup side should be around 100 Ω
• AXON directly connects this signal to his TRS guitar out jack without any
additional amplification
4. DC-Level for synthesizer volume
• Source impedance pickup side should be around 100 Ω
• Buffered DC-level from 0-5 V to control synthesizer volume
5. UP/DOWN switch signals
• Pickup UP/Down switches connect these signals via R-C-R T-Network
(470 Ω – 10 nF – 470 Ω) to GND
6. +-7V power supplies
• Maximum supply current: 100 mA
7. Pin 14 (shield) of 13pin jack MUST be connected to GND
There wasn't one in my sealed box, and it came directly from roland Benelux distributor without any musicshop interference.
Weird.
There wasn't one in my sealed box as well. Interesting, the manual that came with my VG-99 mentions using the magnet, that's why I posted here. I downloaded the on-line manual and that page is not there. Anyone know why Roland took this out of the manual and the box?
Probably because the VG-99 does not actually need this ferrite core. There are many classifications in the maze of FCC emission standards. If Roland tells the FCC to classify the VG-99 as Commercial Audio Equipment rather than Consumer Electronic gear - then the RF emission standards are less stringent, and Roland saves money by not having to include a ferrite core.
Also effective Jan. 2009 the analog TV broadcast spectrum in the USA changes, this may be a factor, its no secret that every manufacture is seeking all methods to increase profit by trimming all surplus costs from every product.
In the USA if you desire a ferrite core - www.jameco.com has them.
Its only needed if you are disturbing local TV reception.
http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&productId=421681
I responded to an earlier post about popping noise when using cosm models.
However, since that is an old post, I thought it would be better to start a new thread about the topic, just so I could learn whether this a problem for other users.
I often get bad noise when I move my cable (particularly with high gain COSM based patches, like "Legato Solo"). If I move around on stage too much, the noise gets pretty bad, and the built in noise suppressors are not eliminating it out without excessively high settings (which adversely affects sustain and makes delicate playing impossible). (This is not an issue if I'm using pcm based patches, however, I'll sometimes get random notes out of nowhere when I move the cable too much).
I thought I had a defective unit, and sent it in for repair. A Roland tech told me the noise is normal, as he was able to recreate it with a new unit.
My question is: how many users out there have experienced this problem?
Clean your cable
This video explains all the above problems.
http://youtu.be/x6ekvyjw96s (http://youtu.be/x6ekvyjw96s)
Solution is here:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3132.0 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3132.0)
Quote
Anyway, thanks and what is the best source for a new Gk 13 pin DIN cable .
Gittler GK13 Superior Cable (WITH a
right angle connector)
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=11243.0 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=11243.0)
or
BTPA 13 pin cable http://btpa.com/13-Pin-Midi/ (http://btpa.com/13-Pin-Midi/)
I already used DeOxit on TWO DIFFERENT cables, and get the same noise with TWO DIFFERENT guitars. (And remember, a Roland tech reproduced the problem with a DIFFERENT GR-55 (his name is Joe).
My experience is that the whole DeOxit thing is way over played.
I do not think it helps at all. More likely, the issue seems better because you are re-seating the cable.
I work with a lot of 25-year old vintage synth gear, and most of it has excellent connectors doing quite well, without the need of DeOxit.
If guitar players are using their gear in an environment where you are getting enough build-up on your 13-pin connectors to warrant spraying you connectors with DeOxit all the time, then they rest of your gear should be suffering to greater extremes. How often are you spraying DeOxit on your 1/4" guitar cables?
For me the flaw remains the 13-pin connector. This was originally a video monitor cable, and it's really not well-suited to guitars. I've got new cables, old cables, new synths, old synths, and they all make noise when I giggle that 13-pin connector.
If you have high-gain patches, then it can sound really bad.
The best solution is to stabilize the cable and live with it.
I haven't noticed the problem, but then i don't use hi-gain patches for Bass.
A cheap noise gate pedal at the end of a chain might solve some issues. Also, it might not. :-\
I've had cable connection noises and sound artifacts with many devices i've used in a variety of states of wear. it's just a reality of working with audio equipment i've found. for years, my bass guitar made some really odd and random noises when it's connection area was nudged - sat on my guitar rack for a few months - now it doesn't make noises any more.
my bass circuitry is haunted. :o
I actually use the cables from ebay that everybody says are cheap & recommends not using. They work fine in my home studio because I am not bouncing around. As far a live, I have better cables. Nomatter what, I think the 13 pin cable is the weakest link in the system.
I get that noise with Roland cables right out of the box. Annoying...
Speaking of haunted equipment, check this site out and download the MP3 involved. Brrrr. I get shivers:
http://www.gunslingbirds.com/ondines-curse/ (http://www.gunslingbirds.com/ondines-curse/)
Helo,
I've got two cables on my vg-99, both of them produce this nois, but one much more then the other.
I think the problem is, that additionaly to the ac sound signal, there is also a dc part from the +-7.5 V suply. And due to this dc part the movements of the connector produce the noise.
Peter
Quote from: ganderpe on August 02, 2011, 06:18:50 AM
Helo,
I've got two cables on my vg-99, both of them produce this nois, but one much more then the other.
I think the problem is, that additionaly to the ac sound signal, there is also a dc part from the +-7.5 V suply. And due to this dc part the movements of the connector produce the noise.
Peter
I have a bunch of hardware (all Roland) and and 3 equipped (1 GK, 1 with piezo PU brand X, 1 with with piezo PU Brand Y)
and I have come to the conclusion that I will have problems if I used 13-pins cables or GK connectors that are
not locking.
My only setup that will cause me problems when I "tap"/move the cable near the guitar is the one where I use
my piezo equipped guitar that has a non-locking cheapo GK connector.
I have used this instrumment with 3 different GK 13-pins cables (2 new, 1 old) and nothing will do; the problem
is with the poor quality of the 13-pins connector used.
The only solution I have found when using this guitar is to stand still as much as possible, particularly when
I am using high gain patches.
M
Quote from: drjoness2001 on July 31, 2011, 10:35:15 PM
My experience is that the whole DeOxit thing is way over played.
I do not think it helps at all. More likely, the issue seems better because you are re-seating the cable.
I work with a lot of 25-year old vintage synth gear, and most of it has excellent connectors doing quite well, without the need of DeOxit.
If guitar players are using their gear in an environment where you are getting enough build-up on your 13-pin connectors to warrant spraying you connectors with DeOxit all the time, then they rest of your gear should be suffering to greater extremes. How often are you spraying DeOxit on your 1/4" guitar cables?
For me the flaw remains the 13-pin connector. This was originally a video monitor cable, and it's really not well-suited to guitars. I've got new cables, old cables, new synths, old synths, and they all make noise when I giggle that 13-pin connector.
If you have high-gain patches, then it can sound really bad.
The best solution is to stabilize the cable and live with it.
I'm almost certain most noise issues arise with poor fit: a less-than-positive connection between the 13-pin and its receptacle. I've often jarred the cable on my knee while playing while seated. I always felt that the 13-pin cable works better with some effective strain relief. Does anyone have an effective strain-relief solution for an iguitar/13-pin connection? I often try looping the cable through the guitar strap before connecting, but that usually tangles.
Does a
Quote from: 5strings on August 15, 2011, 10:06:49 PM
I'm almost certain most noise issues arise with poor fit: a less-than-positive connection between the 13-pin and its receptacle. I've often jarred the cable on my knee while playing while seated. I always felt that the 13-pin cable works better with some effective strain relief. Does anyone have an effective strain-relief solution for an iguitar/13-pin connection? I often try looping the cable through the guitar strap before connecting, but that usually tangles.
Does a
I have never had any problem with my 13 pin connection, as long as I keep the contacts clean. I had bought a spare a couple of years ago when I got the VG and have never had to use it. Just saying.
I've worked in industrial processing where even trace amounts of ambient SO2 would cause the computers to fail in a very short time, .
I'm wondering if those people that are having problems don't live in very urban centers where their gear is exposed to a more corrosive atmosphere, causing galvanic reactions.
A gold plated connector (both male and female) would fix that problem.
Quote from: FreeTime on August 16, 2011, 05:41:57 AM
I've worked in industrial processing where even trace amounts of ambient SO2 would cause the computers to fail in a very short time, .
I'm wondering if those people that are having problems don't live in very urban centers where their gear is exposed to a more corrosive atmosphere, causing galvanic reactions.
A gold plated connector (both male and female) would fix that problem.
once again,
Cheap non-locking 13-pin female connector are a serious problem.
Same high gain patch, same 13-pin old cable, sme basement....my RMC (it uses a locking connector) equipped Multiac Jazz is silent even if I knock the cable hard; however my Ghost (it uses a non-locking connector) equipped Freeway-SA becomes a noise/crackle by simply moving around.
The original ghosts board was removed 12 months after the guitar was bought and the same annoying
behavior came back a week or so after getting my guitar back.
M
...any light mechanical movement of the connector pins will result at least in a small change of contact resistance.
The sound of the guitar is the ac voltage between the ground pin and the signal pin (times 6 with hex pickups).
The supply of the hex pickup electronic is +7.5V, -7.5V and 0V (ground).
If the current flow of the +7.5V pin is, let's say 20mA more then on the -7.5V pin, this 20mA dc current flows throu the ground pin and the whole cable and produces (due to the connection resistance) a constant dc voltage on the sound signal path.
This has no effect on the sound, as long as the connection resistance is constant, because the input capacitor in the vg-99 is filtering out this dc part. But as soon as you move the connector, the resistance will slightly change and this change produces in combination with the 20ma dc current an ac signal that we hear as noise.
The older people of you (as i am :-) ) may remember the radios 30 or 40 years ago, when the old capacitor near the volume potmeter had a leak current, the result was also a noise, when changing the sound volume.
Peter
Good solid info above Ganderpe!
This video explains all the above problems.
http://youtu.be/x6ekvyjw96s (http://youtu.be/x6ekvyjw96s)
Most electronic folks know the most important signal in any electronics gear is the Ground Connection.
How I wish back when Roland changed the Roland Guitar Synth Interface cable specification from the 1980-1987 24 pin type interface (with 4 GND pins!) to the 1988 era circular DIN 13 pin interface we all use today , that they provided an actual GND PIN!
Review the pin assignments on the far right in this pic.
(Roland GK-3 Schematic)
(https://i.postimg.cc/mr3Hfc0h/1372711709-1341344606-GK3-zps389eff64.png)
Observe none of the 13 pins are used for Ground!.
Sadly, the only Ground Connection Roland provided in the GK13 interface is the large round chrome circular shell we all see on the male plugs surrounding the 13 pins at each ends of our Roland GK cables
Some may think "So whats the problem?"
The problem for most is the typical miniscule mating ground contact "finger" on the Female 13 pin jack.
(http://www.hspcon.com/images/d/dcs-1091.jpg)
Many third party "GK13 compatible" gear vendors, (Graphtech Ghost) employ 13 pin Female jacks that do not provide a robust electrical Ground connection to the Male plug's Ground Shell.
The "achilles heel" weakest link is the tiny mating electrical contact finger for the large round Shell 'Ground" connection on the female 13 pin jacks on your guitar, GK-3 or VG-99, GR-55. If this important electrical connection is flaky - you will have problems just as you are currently experiencing ! (see yellow circle below)
(http://www.snapagogo.com/uploads/source/2332013/1377136734_1332702744_dcs1091_ground.jpg)
The slightest move of the Male plug makes lots of rice crispy noises: "snap, crackle, pop!. or worse! (total signal drop out)
Links to sites providing more details about the Roland Synth cable is here:
http://johnp.net/projects/guitar-synth/roland-pinouts.html (http://johnp.net/projects/guitar-synth/roland-pinouts.html)
http://www.marksmart.net/gearhack/gr300/analogmods/395report/Report.html (http://www.marksmart.net/gearhack/gr300/analogmods/395report/Report.html)
Read:
Roland GK 13 pin Cable Maintenance Tips.
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3132.0 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3132.0)
Not sure if this has been covered previous, did not see anything related in a quick scan of this site. Bought in from the USA a VG-99 and GK3 job lot. All seemed ok at first then the 13 pin cable assembly became noisy, only when the cable was moved at the VG99 end, about 2-3 feet of the cable actually. Ordered in some DIN13 pin pcb sockets to help diagnose this problem, ie easy connection for the multimeter as i thought it was a broken/intermittent wire fault. Alas no, all wires were intact? Long story short, days past we had problems with multimeter lead probes causing erratic reading on the connected multimeter ie ohms test probes shorted.
We discovered that stretching the wires along the wire axis, the erratic readings disappeared. Nothing to loose, VG99 in pickup test mode, i could see this "noise" on the display readout, took about 5 minutes of careful stretching and the mechanical related noise became less and less, until it was as good as my reference cable ( have 3 13pin cable assemblies here ). Actually nothing wrong with the DIN13 cable other than this anomaly that i have seen a few times in the last 40 years. See what happens over time. Best guess is galvanic voltages being produced on the stranded cable, pulling the cable removes any loose interactions between the twisted wires for each individual wire. Hope i make sense, it may be something completely different than my best guess. Regards.
Great investigative work and thanks for posting!
The latest batch of Roland 13 pin cables are a true battle for the user.
Between the loose internal wire strands and the fine invisible film of protective coating the vendor puts on the metal contacts at each end, and the ONE ground connection on the circular shell, its a flawed design.
We have a thread on 13 pin cable connection cleaning here:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3132.0 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3132.0)
Got a GK cable from Carvin:
http://www.carvinguitars.com/products/single.php?product=C20P13&cid=45 (http://www.carvinguitars.com/products/single.php?product=C20P13&cid=45)
It is better quality than Roland's offerings and cheaper , the plug is slightly smaller and a bit larger.
Can't say in the long term but after a month , I only use that one.
Funny how Carvin sells them as "MIDI" cables:
".....and other MIDI applications "
::)
what do you mean slightly smaller and a bit bigger ???
Smaller in lenght , bigger in diameter.
I don't have it with me now , I'll post the exact mesuring.
Hello Elantric and all,
As mentioned it is information that may be useful at some time for others. If i understand you correctly about single point termination shield on the Roland GK13 cable assembly, this is the correct way to provide best outer shield action, and reduce voltage gradients along the cable length, ie current loops ( oft quoted "earth loops" ), it is the current in these loops that causes the unwanted signals and induced noises. By terminating the shield at one end only there is little support for a current to flow. Apologies if i have not understood the reference to shield termination correctly.
The cable assembly from the hex pickup to pcb is also single ended terminated for the shield with the black wire providing the return path for all 6 pickup assemblies. This black wire is joint terminated with the connection header on the pcb copper foil.
As for the protective "film" for connector pins, this has been a long tradition in industrial connectors and assemblies. Not widespread of course, yet a good move in the great scheme of things, just you would like to know before you use the assembly, this forum is a great help in that regard.
Cleaning can be a two part process, harsh chemical strippers such as ( in Australia CRC CO contact cleaner ) strips all films and oil residues, the later action depletes moving parts ( and connections are moving parts ) from long life assisted, reduction of friction. As required here i strip/clean with CRC CO and lubricate with CRC 26-2 after stripping. Some plastics can be degraded by these chemicals, hence care is required in test application.
Hope that helps, Regards.
However, the "Achilles' heel" with the Roland GK13 DIN cable design / implementation is that a few manufacturers use a female 13 pin DIN jack with a very poor contact connection to the crucial GROUND - which only occurs on the circular Shell connection.
The 13 pins always have a more robust electrical connection, but the connection to the circular shell is often very marginal on many DIN13 jacks.
The GK-3 has a voltage on Pin #9, but all prior 13 pin GK pickups (Roland GK-2A, Axon AIX-101, Yamaha G1D, RMC, Ghost piezos, etc, ) leave pin #9 open as a spare connection.
Read other gear that uses Pin#9
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=5259.0
We have already covered that a few folks have modified their gear to implement pin#9 as "Analog Ground Reference Return" path. True on paper this may appear to be potential source of Ground Loop noise, in practice quite often using pin #9 as a analog Ground return path provides a more trouble free / less prone to static noise cable connection at the gig.
reference
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3857.msg26085#msg26085 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3857.msg26085#msg26085)
DrJoness2001 wrote >
QuoteI used to wire my GK-2A guitars and synth (VG-88) with pin 9 as ground. I hated the jack/shell ground. I wish there was a dedicated pin for ground. The old Roland 24-pin gear had four wires for ground!
Can see your point Elantric, DIN connectors are not my first choice in non domestic applications. I rate our usage as industrial grade. Many other connectors would have been more suitable, even a D15 ( vga style ) would be ideal, allowing extra pins for future upgrades, plenty of high grade monitor cable available would have thought. Design is of the moment, often the moment takes a wrong turn/choice.
As to the GK3 cable connection scheme, it is worse than you describe. There is no local Zero Volt connection for the balanced supply rails. It is through the shield and contact arrangement on the input connectors, either end. Correct me if i am mistaken. This is worst possible choice as it now mixes DC current with ostensibly AC ( signal ) current, added with an unreliable contact arrangement and you have unhappy end users, am in no doubt. Also the filter capies for the supply rails are only bypassed with low ESR capacitors, great in theory and poor in application. These should be bypassed with smd 0.1uF ( and 1nf if possible ) capies to ensure a best approach to AC gain characteristics for the op amps and associated circuitry.
Really is a case of young engineers not gaining historic engineering to bring about predictable and well proven outcomes. No point in using high end op amps in an application and cripple the device with poorly engineered AC circuit networks, external. A properly designed supply rail will perform as good or better than a battery. The latter requires step/staged capy bypassing even more so than a rectified supply circuit. Time and again i see battery operated devices, relying on the batteries low internal impedance to provide correct AC gain on the supplied circuits. The battery is anything but low impedance, known for the last 100 years, news to some it seems however. Billbax uses batteries as i understand it, he has his requirments for ultimate performance, common mode and normal mode rejection ratios would be hard to control with a usual PSU arrangement, especially smpsu designs.
Regards to all.
I had a terrible microphonic noise in the 13 pin cable at the GK3 connector when it was new, right out of the box. I picked up some electronic contact cleaner, did what the thread said for preparing the cable and NOISE WAS GONE. Simple but worked like a charm.
Much thanks!
Jake.
A couple times a year I get that. Just shoot some WD40 into the plugs on either end of the cable (NOT directly into the VG!), then work them in and out of the connectors on your GK devices. Also make sure to apply some on a course rag and work it around the outside of the cable plugs. Fixes the bizzare microphonic problem everytime.
audio trax....thanks I tried it and it worked. I foun my problem was the connector on the GK. I sprayed some contact cleaner into the plug and into the gk socket as well as on the 99 and voilla ...noiseless.
The one on the left is the one sold by Carvin , on the right is a standard Roland cable.
....the 'smaller' plug is identical to the one I was referring to in:
GK-13 Reference Library / Re: where to buy "small" gk cable ?
...when I talked about those available (separately) from NKC...
HTH someone..
Regards,
gumbo
I think the guy was talking about the lenght of the cable itself , not the plug.
Anyways I just wanted to share this info to anyone looking for other GK cable suppliers.
I have a 15 foot 13 pin synth cable that came with my GR-55. I was looking to buy a longer and a better quality one than the stock model. In my opinion the cable seems cheesy and fragile. If I ever accidentally stepped on a end it would surely get munched. Does anyone know if metal ended 13 pin cable exists? I'm not referring to the metal collar that houses the pins but the plastic cannon piece around that and the cable. If so, could they provide me with a few direct links to pages where I could purchase one?
Here's all I found on google. All have the plastic ends:
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/accessories/planet-waves-13-pin-midi-guitar-synth-cable (http://www.musiciansfriend.com/accessories/planet-waves-13-pin-midi-guitar-synth-cable)
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/GKC10 (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/GKC10)
http://www.carvinguitars.com/products/single.php?product=C20P13&cid=45 (http://www.carvinguitars.com/products/single.php?product=C20P13&cid=45)
Thank you.
I'm NOT aware of any metal jacket 13pin DIN male plugs which exist that also include the important Roland 13 pin Cable Lock mechanism on the Male Cable plug end.
(http://static.musiciansfriend.com/derivates/18/001/209/127/DV016_Jpg_Large_339124_end_single.jpg)
Thanks for the info Elantric! :)
Hi everyone this is my first post on these boards and I hope this may help. I have just bought my Gr55 and I am well pleased with it but on the second occasion that i used it I got the horrible noises when the cable was moved or touched and I was concerned that I had a faulty unit, on this particular occasion I had connected the cable into the GR55 and powered up but hadn't yet connected the cable into the guitar which I then did after powering up.it was at this point that I noticed the problem with the cable being touched or moved.I powered down and connected all cables before powering back up and there was no problem. I now connect everything first and have never had a repeat of the problem.
Hi
I must really confirm your points..
I've never had any problems with my VG 99 ...then often had problems using the same GK 3 cables with the GR 55..I often could solve the problem by disconnecting the cables...(not a could solution as I wrote some time before)
if your interference sound like a humming or "bzzzzzzzzzz" probably is 60hz noise, if in some position the noise increase or decrease, is because guitar is working like a antenna for interferences.
if u use cold lamps on your room, like as fluorescent lamp with reactors, the high frequence of oscilators on reactors, induces hummings on eletric net and comes to your amp, increased by your "antenna guitar".
try use a line filter, those used to protect computters, but buy a with good quality...or do one your self...on the internet have manys..easy to do.
i do my filter, and works very well, reduces 70% of noises... you can try, worse will not be...
good luck
PS: if you hit the cable on the floor and you ear some "clicks, tiks, " etc... maybe the internal shield of cable is not soo good...maybe is oxided is change the impedance of cable, or the oxid is create some resistance between cables,shields and pins...
Clean your cable
info is here:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3132.0 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3132.0)
Deoix it!
The cable issue is probably Something Roland didn't see coming. But the problem can be solved by cleaning your cables often. The problem doesn't exist in just in the cables it is in all male and female 13 pin connections. You have to clean them on a regular basis it is not a one time fix. If you intend on using the GR-55 plan on lots of cable maintenance. Use Deoxit or rubbing alcohol as temporary solution. I believe Deoxit has a special type of oil for maintaining clean audio connections. When my GR-55 was brand new out of the box I didn't get all that noise but it developed as the contacts became dirty. I also experienced this problem with my VG-99, It took a much longer time to occur though. This leads me to believe that the GR-55 is more sensitive to contact corrosion than the VG-99, but the problem does exist in the VG-99. I bought both units as soon as they were available and have used them in every situation possible.
Hi,
Crackles and creaks are obviously 13pin connector contact noise. That's 14 connections if you include the screen/shielding, and a lot to go wrong. The swishing sound when moving a cable across the floor using a high-gain patch, is the dreadful inadequate copper and cotton screen.
If the GK cable was properly doubled-screened and the connectors soldered and not crimped, then 90% of the mentioned problems would go away. Saying that, the cable would be a lot more inflexible and expensive to make. Definately a good trade-off for the studio...Live...don't know.
Bill
www.separate-strings.co.uk (http://www.separate-strings.co.uk)
I'm familiar with the TS problem because I helped him test it. I even replaced the 13 pin connector on his guitar (hex pup built in) for him. We were seeing the problem even after that and could get noise while shaking the cable lightly while the connector ends were stationary. Ultimately we think the issue is the cables he had. I just picked up a new GR-55 with GK3 and cable from Hello Music and it's working fine.
I have 2 units GK2A and GK3, and i have 2 13 pin cables, one this cable is from GR50 (around 1990), and the new cable and GK was buying 2011/12, both pair GK/Cable do noises when shaked.
i think than the problem is 2 things:
1 - the shield cable is a big big crap.
2 - even adjusting the gain at low levels in GR, the gain is still sufficient to capture noise coming from the cable.
The copper of the cable is oxidized easily by changing the impedance of the cable, facilitating the inflow of noise.
I believe that there really is a problem with the cable impedance.
In my humble opinion, these cables are very thin, and changes the signal transfer between GK and GR.
The input impedance of GR is already high, which demands that the cable has a minimum impedance to the drive signal for the integrity of the GK GR, maintaining the signal to noise ratio in good condition.
Added to this a bad shielding, so you guys can imagine how the problem is.
The title basically says it.
I have two GK guitars. One is a Fender Roland Ready Stratocaster, the other is a Gibson SG Special Faded that I put a GK-3 pickup on. The Strat always works fine, but sometimes the high e string will drop out on the SG. The weird thing is that I've learned to fix this problem every time by plugging into and out of the headphone jack of my GR-55.
Does anyone have any idea what could be causing this problem, how I can permanently fix it, and what the headphone jack has to do with any of this?
Thanks a lot in advance.
I suspect you have intermittent contacts on your 13 pin cable, and unplugging / plugging in the Headphones on the GR-55 is simply creating vibration that solves the intermittent connection.
Clean your 13 pin cable - details here:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3132.0 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3132.0)
Quote from: fly135 on January 19, 2012, 09:15:58 AM
I'm familiar with the TS problem because I helped him test it. I even replaced the 13 pin connector on his guitar (hex pup built in) for him. We were seeing the problem even after that and could get noise while shaking the cable lightly while the connector ends were stationary. Ultimately we think the issue is the cables he had. I just picked up a new GR-55 with GK3 and cable from Hello Music and it's working fine.
The free GK cable included with GR-55GK is among the worst examples ever produced
That would seem to be the most likely thing, but I've tried it with two different cables, and two different guitars. The cables seem to be fine (and I've cleaned them pretty thoroughly), as the same thing will happen with both of them, but won't happen with my Roland Ready Strat. If I had to narrow it down to anything, it would be the GK-3 on my SG. Next time it happens, I'll try plugging into some of the other jacks on my GR-55 and see if that fixes the problem. It is certainly mysterious.
Its very possible you have a bad intermittent connection inside the GK-3
The latest batches of GK-3's have many reports of poor internal soldering and dead / intermittent strings
If you are still under warranty - use it!
To me, it sounds like a cold solder joint on the GR-55 circuit board. So like Elantric said, get it repaired under warrantee ( if applicable ). Just to validate, does plugging & unplugging any other 1/4" jack nearby have the same effect ?
Quote from: Sedgewick on July 02, 2012, 05:58:39 PM
To me, it sounds like a cold solder joint on the GR-55 circuit board. So like Elantric said, get it repaired under warrantee ( if applicable ). Just to validate, does plugging & unplugging any other 1/4" jack nearby have the same effect ?
I think it is more to do with the GK-3 on one guitar, as the problem is only related to one guitar and not another.
Perhaps the GK-3 13 pin socket has an antioxidant coating too?
I had simular problems, and sprayed a bit of '*stuff*' in the GK-3 13 pin end which seemed to fix it.
DeOxit is 'the stuff' to use.
(*stuff* being WD40 which was all i had at hand at the time).
when my 3rd kept dropping out it was because the gk pickup itself went bad.... I to could bring it back by unplugging the cord (midi) n plugging it back in.
brought it in and they replaced the pickup n been fine ever since...
Quote from: Sedgewick on July 02, 2012, 05:58:39 PM
To me, it sounds like a cold solder joint on the GR-55 circuit board. So like Elantric said, get it repaired under warrantee ( if applicable ). Just to validate, does plugging & unplugging any other 1/4" jack nearby have the same effect ?
I have yet to try plugging into any of the other 1/4" jacks on the GR-55 to see if that rectifies the problem. Next time it happens, I will be sure to do that. As stated, I'm assured that going into at least the headphone jack fixes it every time. It never fails. Why that happens... no idea. Also, just to clear up any possible confusion, unplugging and replugging the MIDI cable makes no difference. Going into the 1/4" headphones jack is what I've learned fixes the problem, at least temporarily. I have yet to discover what sets the problem off. I don't know if it's completely random, or if it's triggered by something.
It's my personal belief that the GK-3 has a problem. Unfortunately, I got my GR-55 used but in "like new" condition. It had the box, papers, plastic wrappings, everything in completely mint condition. I bought it about four months ago on eBay. Therefore, I suppose I'm just S.O.L. Oh well, but I suppose this is one reason why I have two synth guitars. One of these days I'll probably just get a new pickup.
Thanks a lot for your replies everyone, and if anyone still has any ideas, I'd appreciate the input!
If you have the funds, you could always just buy a new GK3 and see if it still does it with the SG. If so just return it and get a refund or store credit for something else. Again, if you have the funds. Or do you know someone else who has one you could borrow for a few days to see?
Quoteunplugging and replugging the MIDI cable makes no difference.
Are you talking about the 13 pin cable, or a separate 5 pin MIDI cable?
These are two very separate things.
And to be correct , so we are all on the same page, the 13 pin cable is NOT a MIDI cable. Roland calls the cable that goes to your GK-3 a "GK Cable"
(http://cms.rolandus.com/assets/images/products/main/gkc_3_5_10_cable_main.jpg)
These GK 13 pin cables are available in three different lengths
QuoteThese cables are available in lengths of 10 feet (GKC-3), 15 feet (GKC-5) and 30 feet (GKC-10).
http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.php?ProductId=91&ParentId=53 (http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.php?ProductId=91&ParentId=53)
They all have 13 pins + One Shield which translate to:
Pins #1-6 = Six buffered unbalanced audio connections (one per string)
Pin #7 = Buffered unbalanced audio connection for Normal Guitar pickups
Pin#8 = 0V to +5VDC Control Voltage output for Synth/ COSM modeling Volume
Pin#9 = No Connection (except GK-3 which uses this pin as a control voltage output for GK-3's 3-way switch position.
Pin #10 = Switch "S1" detect
Pin #11 = Switch "S2" detect
Pin #12 = +7VDC power
Pin #13 = -7VDC power
The round chrome metal circular shaped part of the DIN 13 plug is the Only Ground path connection for all the above.
That's 14 connections total
Observe NONE of these connections are MIDI !!
For reference a block diagram of what is inside a typical 13 pin guitar preamp see below:
Roland GK-3 Circuit
http://www.snapagogo.com/uploads/source/1812013/1372711512_111968099_GK3_internal_zps5c5d2c3d.png (http://www.snapagogo.com/uploads/source/1812013/1372711512_111968099_GK3_internal_zps5c5d2c3d.png)
I highly recommend EVERY new GR-55 owner follow the exact procedure detailed in this thread below prior to using the GR-55:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3132.0 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3132.0)
QuoteOften "new" Asian built electronics contacts, cable pins, Jacks, get coated with a very thin film of anti-corosive chemical film - to survive the boat trip on the pacific. Older gear will suffer from oxidation / corrosion just sitting in contact with the atmosphere where smog, ozone, dirt, sand, beer, sugar from spilled mixed drinks work in concert to destroy the integrity of the 14 separate electrical connections within the 13 pin cable interface.
This results in intermittent noises, crackles, Hum, string signal dropouts, weak string response, poor GTR to MIDI tracking and a host of other anomalies.
To remove and breakdown this invisible film (new cables) , or remove / clean the oxidation layer (old cables) from the Cable & Connector contacts, perform the following sequence :
1 ) Apply a small amount of Caig De-Oxit to all 13pin connections on both ends of the cable. Dont forget the 13 pin connectors on your Guitar and your processor (VG-99,GR-55, etc)
2) At one end of the Roland GK13 pin cable, Depress the Cable lock on the 13pin male DIN plug end.
3) While keeping the Cable lock depressed, rapidly insert and remove the 13 pin male DIN plug end at the GR-55 / VG-99 "GK IN" jack. Rapidly do this at least 10 times.
4) Swap cable ends.
5) Repeat Step #3 above.
6) Now, while keeping the Cable lock depressed, rapidly insert and remove the 13 pin male DIN plug end at the GK-3 "GK IN" jack. Rapidly do this at least 10 times.
7) Swap cable ends.
8 ) Repeat Step #6 above.
NOTE - DO NOT APPLY TOO MUCH CONTACT CLEANER - THAT CAN CAUSE OTHER PROBLEMS!
---
The above procedure may restore your older Roland GK 13 cables, because over a period of time, the electrical connections are exposed to air and tend to develop an oxidation layer that restricts proper electron flow.
Heres a Link to Caig DeOxit - they even sell it at your local Radio Shack now.
USE SPARINGLY
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2104746 (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2104746)
I was talking about the 13 pin cable. Also, I have cleaned everything -- all cables, the gk-3's input -- I don't know how many times, but it's been a lot.
Also, I don't personally know anyone else that has a gk-3 pickup. I do have money to comfortably buy another one, so I'll probably wind up doing just that. If for whatever bizarre reason the problem persists despite that, which I don't expect it to, I can always sell it.
Or buy another guitar to put it on so you don't have to go thru the trouble ;D
GK Cable.....
$39 for a 20 foot GK cable is very reasonable. And Carvin usually sells quality stuff - they undoubtedly sell these cables to the owners of their guitars with 13-pin output. Thanks for the link.
Use at your own risk
Last night I was ready to reach for contact cleaner again after more sporadic noise and string dropout. I always thought the noise was from that crappy grounding system Roland uses, but noticed all the ruckus was coming from the D string (I had the 55 set to 'string sensitivity' and saw some level congruent with the noise).
Weeks ago I'd bought a welding tip cleaner set, and thought I'd try it. I matched the pin-size to the appropriate size tool, a bit undersized to be on the safe side. Then I cut the end of the tool off so only the serrated part would go into the jack. I looked up which hole was for the 4th string and carefully gave it a couple of strokes, nice and square, slowly and no further in than that cord-pin would go,wiping the tool between insertions.I only did the offending hole, I think it removes trace amounts of metal.
So far its working great, no more racket when I move the cord and the dropout is gone. If you're going to do this use common sense, don't jam the biggest tool in there and keep reaming till you see metal filings. The purpose is to remove oxidation/crud, not metal. I'm putting the tip-cleaner into my gig-bag.
Good find !!
For something a little less abrasive, i use pencil type fibreglass cleaners on pins (like a retractable erasor tip),
I wonder if there s something in a pin/tip type shape for the socket pins.
The 'ol oxy-acetylene tip cleaners are something I haven't used for some time.
Has anybody else with a Fender [Roland Ready] Strat developed a problem where the GK cable latch no longer holds the cable in the guitar? I know I should always run the cable over my guitar strap but the damage has already been done? I can just see this cable coming out in the middle of a Neil Diamond show, etc... :o
Have to get a new Gk13 cable with a working locking latch on the male DIN13 plug.
Or if its a fault with your female 13 pin DIN jack on your guitar - time to replace it.
BTW - You found the principal reason for the non acceptance of the Roland 13 pin interface on many pro tours.
all details here:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3132.0 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3132.0)
Remember the GK-13 interface is flawed IMHO - using only ONE Ground Connection for all Unbalanced Analog signals , +7V/-7V distributed Power Supply Reference, and Control Voltage reference, using Only the large round chrome circular Shell on the DIN 13 connector for the crucial ELECTRICAL GROUND connection to the GK-3.
The "achilles heel" weakest link is the tiny mating electrical contact finger for the large round Shell 'Ground" connection on the female 13 pin jacks on your guitar, GK-3 or VG-99, GR-55. If this important electrical connection is flaky - you will have problems just as you are currently experiencing ! (see Blue circle below)
(https://s6.postimg.cc/68riz7jf5/image.png)
Many other 13 pin users understand this mechanical fragility and limitation.
Its a result of Roland using "off the shelf" DIN 13 connectors - (typically used for connecting Kenwood / Alpine car stereo remote CD changers) - which seemed like a decent idea to Roland back in 1988
This video below explains more details on other 13 pin problems.
https://youtu.be/x6ekvyjw96s
A few folks modify all their 13 pin gear to use pin #9 as a 2nd Ground connection, but that voids your warranty.
All Metal Chassis Mount Female 13 pin DIN jacks solve this Intermittent Ground issue due to a 360 degree all metal contact area for the Male plug.
(http://www.hamradioexpress.com/catalog/images/13pdcmj.jpg)
Gumbo sells a version that accepts the Roland locking plugs here
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8888.0 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8888.0)
The male ends of my cable seem to be undamaged - it appears that the female jack on my guitar no longer has anything for the plug's metal finger to latch onto - is it actually possible that these plastic jacks don't have any metal reinforcement to strengthen the latch point? If so, this truly is a poor design in need of a permanent fix!!!
QuoteI can just see this cable coming out in the middle of a Neil Diamond show, etc...
Yes - its a sad fragile design. - and the big reason my VG-99 stays home where it works great - under Controlled Conditions - not a live major tour.
Next time you run into Reeves Gabrels - see if he will tell his Roland 13 pin on the Road horror stories
http://www.guitar.com/articles/reeves-gabrels-scary-monsters-and-other-nasty-noises (http://www.guitar.com/articles/reeves-gabrels-scary-monsters-and-other-nasty-noises)
Adrian Belew and many others have at various times resorted to removing all 13pin DIN connections and replacing with VGA HD15 type.
(http://www.showmecables.com/images/catalog/product/VGA-45-Degree-Angled-Cable.jpg.ashx?width=400&height=266&format=jpg)
and adding separate Analog Ground and Digital Ground returns on the two additional pins
More here:
Re: GR-55 noise in Live Rigs https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=5456.25 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=5456.25)
That's certainly simpler but using a VGA cable is still kind of unwieldy:
In a VGA cable you have to use thumbscrews to connect it and that's precious time lost onstage screwing and unscrewing to connect/disconnect.
It's almost like you need something like an ethernet cable that's commonly available, easy to connect and disconnect and are available in multiple lengths. Only problem with ethernet: the plastic tabs break off all the time at my day gig.
You figure by now Roland would have come up with a BETTER solution. With Fishman's wireless solution it's only a matter of time - Roland needs to step up to the plate and improve the GK connectivity? Ethernet? USB? Thunderbolt?
Lots of people gig with these all of the time but I'd say my 40+ gigs over the last few years I treat that cable and VG unit more carefully than I do the guitar in some ways!
In 2014 Roland with the GK13 pin connection is in a technology cul-de-sac IMHO.
The infrastructure that works fine in the R&D Lab or home use really is a source of show stoppers for touring professionals. And these days Ive experienced legal issues for sidemen in major touring acts when high tech failures or other technical issues force concert cancellations and audience ticket refunds and rescheduling missed concerts. It points that the Roland 13 pin connection might "be too high risk" for mission critical situations.
Would you trust your Road crew / Guitar Tech to be able to manage this issue for an international tour -with your rig mounted near a Drum Riser on a live stage?
https://youtu.be/x6ekvyjw96s
Don't get me wrong - I love Roland VG/GR Systems for the sonic exploration possibilities they bring to modern Guitarists - but its important to know upfront the potential "land mines" that await with this marginal 13 pin connection.
You have to admit: the standard quarter inch jack has stood the test of time for reliability, ease of availability, many lengths and styles.
I know some international artists use large high tech guitar rigs and and have duplicates of everything on the road should something fail - a good example would be Alex Lifeson of Rush who has an complicated multi high-tech guitar, multi-amp, plus Mac laptop with effects plug-ins running and if that setup goes down he has a 100% duplicate of everything so he can switch instantly and be up and ready to rock.
In my own case I've never had my VG go down nor the cable nor the foot pedal BUT my looper was the previous weak link. I have corrected that and can use my old looper as a backup if I run into issues. But, if I was gigging more frequently I'd have a plan B and a plan C and a plan D.
Ah the horrors of the 13-pin connector and socket. It really all rides on this doesn't it! A plastic housing with flimsy mating points and bad audio top to bottom. What can we do?
Bill
I may be spending some time trying to reinforce the latching mechanism in my VG Strat (Ooops - make that 'Roland Ready Strat') - there really needs to be some *metal* reinforcement at this crucial point!
Quote from: Radley on August 29, 2013, 08:31:06 PM
I may be spending some time trying to reinforce the latching mechanism in my VG Strat -
I assume you mean a Roland-ready Strat--unless you found a way to put a 13 pin jack on a VG strat. If so, I'd like to have it done to mine.
On all cables I always feed the cable up then back through my strap as strain relief.
Quote from: Elantric on August 29, 2013, 09:00:44 PM
On all cables I always feed the cable up then back through my strap as strain relief.
Ditto. I also use a velcro cable tie for added security (less slippage).
QuoteAh the horrors of the 13-pin connector and socket. It really all rides on this doesn't it! A plastic housing with flimsy mating points and bad audio top to bottom. What can we do?
====
In the VG-100, Id really want an addition of a fast 8 in / 8 out USB Audio Interface. This would allow full COSM Reamping for each of the 6 strings along with a spare stereo channel.
But maybe they will follow Apples lead of changing ports and interface cable types - and simply obsolete the old 13 pin DIN connector and replace it with open source DisplayPort cables - forcing us to build even more interface adapters
Here's a link to an old thread where we discussed possible GK DIN13 pin connector replacement types -
I still like Displayport cables,(not HDMI) as these are open source and do not require any licensing (as HDMI does)
Even the Jamhub employs DisplayPort Connectors for their multichannel audio remote mix pods
http://www.jamhub.com/jamhub-tourbus.html (http://www.jamhub.com/jamhub-tourbus.html)
See the four rectangular "Displayport" connector holes {Labeled "Remotes") on the rear of the Jamhub
(http://media.soundonsound.com/sos/oct10/images/jamhub_02.jpg)
What would make 13-pin guitars more appealing, more successful?
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4634.0 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4634.0)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f1/DisplayPort_Connector.svg/300px-DisplayPort_Connector.svg.png)
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4634.msg31671#msg31671 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4634.msg31671#msg31671)and the DisplayPort Male plugs on the cables have locking latches
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41E05EIpOJL._SX385_.jpg)
and the price is right
Black Display Port Male To Male DisplayPort Cable - 4.5 meters / 15 feet $9.95http://www.amazon.com/Black-Display-Port-DisplayPort-Cable/dp/B001V7F4I4/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1377856105&sr=8-6&keywords=displayport+cable+4+meter (http://www.amazon.com/Black-Display-Port-DisplayPort-Cable/dp/B001V7F4I4/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1377856105&sr=8-6&keywords=displayport+cable+4+meter)
Slept on this last night...not the cable!
I'm wondering if an iec 13-pin plug to a 13-pin line socket cable might be a half-way solution. Perhaps 15 inches in length and tucked under the v-synth, just like in the movie. The iec 13-pin insert is of much higher quality compared to Roland's, and ofcourse you have all the benefits of a soldered connector compared to a crimp. Another bonus would be to save wear and tear on the v-synth 13-pin socket.
Just an idea for now.
Locking 13-pin connector: http://www.iec-usa.com/cgi-bin/iec/fullpic?bCwNzpSq;DN13MS-L;29 (http://www.iec-usa.com/cgi-bin/iec/fullpic?bCwNzpSq;DN13MS-L;29)
13-pin line-socket: http://www.iec-usa.com/cgi-bin/iec/fullpic?bCwNzpSq;DN13F-L;14 (http://www.iec-usa.com/cgi-bin/iec/fullpic?bCwNzpSq;DN13F-L;14)
Bill
Quote from: Elantric on August 30, 2013, 02:36:47 AM
====
In the VG-100, Id really want an addition of a fast 8 in / 8 out USB Audio Interface. This would allow full COSM Reamping for each of the 6 strings along with a spare stereo channel.
But maybe they will follow Apples lead of changing ports and interface cable types - and simply obsolete the old 13 pin DIN connector and replace it with open source DisplayPort cables - forcing us to build even more interface adapters
I feel like roland is watching the competition when it comes to midi guitar. If they aren't already fully vested in a dev cycle for the next vg then I suspect they might just try to mimic the competition by creating an ftp knockoff. Then again, Roland is all about riding out the waves generated by their outdated tech.
Hi All,
At the risk of sounding like I have a vested interest in 13-pin Din jacks .. (I probably do!) ::)...I thought that the OP was lamenting the fact that the (said-to-be-ok) jackplug on the end of the cable was making contact, but was subject to disengaging because the latching-plate in the guitar's jack was worn.
If one was to go looking, I think you'll find that the 'latching plate' is in fact a separate piece of METAL that is inserted into the already-moulded slot in the plastic jack body....that assuming the Beast in question is basically the same in this regard as my MIM Roland-Ready Strat of 2006.
I would be personally tempted to replace/renew/re-engineer this part in order to overcome the problem...the other obvious option being to simply buy another jack (although granted that this would involve de-soldering the original jack from its PCB, and replacing the entire assembly).
Having said all that, I do acknowledge that I tend to leap into screwdriver-and-soldering-iron mode perhaps more quickly than do some others... ...and there ARE many worthwhile comments in this thread regarding alternative thoughts to the Roland 13-pin idiom... I just tend to always take the tack of making the original thing work like it was supposed to, before I start shifting the Earth.
Regards from finally-about-to-be-Springtime Oz! ;D
gumbo
The display port system looks good and low profile to me - am I correct that the Roland cables have individual shields for each wire, and if so, do display port cables have the same?
If possible, it seems the ultimate solution would be for Roland to digitize all PU signals *at the guitar end* and send that signal to the VG through a much less complex cable (no longer needing a wire for each string or control).
Gumbo: Thanks for the info on the jack in question - I have not yet had the time to go after this problem yet. My Roland Strat is probably older than yours, since it was purchased for a special tour with ND where both guitarists played some Orchestral instruments - I'm guessing it was around 2001. (I loved playing oboe, french horn, and harp and cello!) If the metal part can be replaced I will make the attempt rather than replace the whole jack, as everything else is working fine.
Quoteam I correct that the Roland cables have individual shields for each wire,
No - the Roland GK 13 pin Cables I have reviewed are just one mass of 13 insulated wires (non twisted pair ) with one non insulated Ground Return connection with a outer foil or wire mesh shield. Rather like an old D25 parallel port Printer cable there are no high speed data lines - its more of a massive 7 signal unbalanced -10db consumer level analog connection with a Control Voltage for GK Volume and two GPIO Momentary signals ( S1, S2 Switches) and bipolar 7 VDC.
Really sad they use only ONE Ground connection in the GK 13 interface
(the old Roland 24 pin systems used Four separate Ground connections -for a reason!)
http://www.joness.com/gr300/24pin.htm (http://www.joness.com/gr300/24pin.htm)
Side note - explore Bill Bax's "Ultimate GK-Cable
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=2915.0 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=2915.0)
http://youtu.be/yU7_gZzBHII (http://youtu.be/yU7_gZzBHII)
QuoteIf possible, it seems the ultimate solution would be for Roland to digitize all PU signals *at the guitar end* and send that signal to the VG through a much less complex cable (no longer needing a wire for each string or control).
I agree -and have voiced that Roland should consider jumping on the emerging "Ethernet AVB" Cat5 standard for wired and wireless Ehternet audio transport connections
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_Video_Bridging (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_Video_Bridging)
But that would require Roland to get friendly with XMOS Inc.
http://www.xmos.com/en/applications/avb (http://www.xmos.com/en/applications/avb)
The latest Behringer X-32 employs the AES50 'SuperMAC' standard
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug12/articles/behringer-x32.htm (http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug12/articles/behringer-x32.htm)
Thirty-two channels of audio can be input from a computer via the XUF USB/Firewire interface card slot, and there are also two sets of 48 digital inputs on the desk itself. These use the AES50 'SuperMAC' standard — an ultra-low latency (typically 0.25ms) audio network hooked up with standard Cat 5 cabling — and are primarily intended for connecting Behringer's new S16 digital stage boxes. With up to three units per AES50 interface, a total of 96 sources and 48 returns is accessible from the console. The AES50 ports can also be used to share buses between X32 consoles.http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug12/articles/behringer-x32.htm (http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug12/articles/behringer-x32.htm)
http://www.aes.org/publications/standards/search.cfm?docID=45 (http://www.aes.org/publications/standards/search.cfm?docID=45)
But I'm sure Roland Corp would prefer to use their proprietary REAC protocol - or (more likely) just continue with the same old GK 13 pin.
http://www.roland.com/professional/products_audio.html (http://www.roland.com/professional/products_audio.html)
http://www.roland.com/products/en/exp/REAC.html (http://www.roland.com/products/en/exp/REAC.html)
Multi channel transfer with high quality audio
REAC transfers 24-bit uncompressed multi channel audio with very low latency. REAC technology eliminates the typical problems found in analog transfer such as signal quality degradation or hums and buzzes. In addition, since REAC transfer happens over light weight cable and is immune to externally induced noise, designers and integrators have more freedom for cable placement resulting in lower cost installations.
Up to 40x40 channels over lightweight Cat5e
Heavy analog multi core cable requires large, expensive conduit for installations, and suffers from high frequency losses and potential for induced hums and buzzes. REAC's transfer protocol provides pristine digital audio in a very light weight, inexpensive and easy to install cable format.
Good stuff Elantric - let's hope Roland makes a change for the better with the upcoming VG unit. If the GK cable wires are not individually shielded, I can see potential for crosstalk between different strings and with control signals....
QuoteIf the GK cable wires are not individually shielded, I can see potential for crosstalk between different strings and with control signals....
Its a wonder this interface works as well as it does, - seems to scream the goal was:
"make it cheap, and if it works - ship it"
So, has there actually been an official new VG announcement? As much as I love the sound of my Kemper, if Roland actually evolves the VG even further, and replaces the 13 pin with something more professional, I will be really excited. All of my Roland gear has always been super dependable. I say this cause I just had to send in my Kemper for repair, after only 4 months of limited use in the studio. Quality control has always been a strength of Roland, in my experience, but I hate the 13 pin cable money pit. I'm on my third cable in the last year.
QuoteSo, has there actually been an official new VG announcement?
Roland wants their Dealers to move existing remaining inventory at full retail while they can.
Its common practice for Roland to only provide "product discontinued" info to their dealers only - not public.
i confirmed this is true - VG-99 was discontinued in April 2013.
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6083.msg60465#msg60465 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6083.msg60465#msg60465)
And the typical retail channels now have next to zero inventory
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/amplifiers-effects/roland-vg-99-v-guitar-multi-effects-processor-system (http://www.musiciansfriend.com/amplifiers-effects/roland-vg-99-v-guitar-multi-effects-processor-system)
(http://www.snapagogo.com/uploads/source/2202013/1376063053_838255858_G99_Not_Available_130809.PNG)
But this weekend is the time to pick up the phone and make a deal
zzounds still has 2 left
http://www.zzounds.com/item--ROLVG99 (http://www.zzounds.com/item--ROLVG99)
Funfact: Roland is notorious for discontinuing product lines and continuing aggressive advertising, especially their lower end products that (I think) are over manufactured.
An example us their A Pro series controllers. I bought it for the Zeta2 rebate. When I tried to give my local dealer the business, they informed me that production was discontinued and new orders direct to Roland would not be honored.
Any idea on how long the VG88 was discontinued before the VG99 was released?
QuoteAny idea on how long the VG88 was discontinued before the VG99 was released?
Roland builds in batches based upon projected sales, and inventory, and market demand.
Typically there is a gap of non production of V-Guitar products right before the new generation device is released from R&D to Production.
Roland GR-500 production - (1977-1978)
Roland GR-300 production - (1980-1983)
Roland GR-700 production - (1984-1987)
Roland VG-8 production - (1995-1997)
Roland VG-8EX production - (1997-1999)
Roland VG-88 production - (1999-2005)
Roland VG-99 production - (2007-2013)
Roland GR-55 production - (2011-Current)
Boss GP-10 production - (2014-Current)
Boss SY-300 production - (2015-Current)
I have 'noise problems' when the plug slightly moves in the socket...
I found this movie on youtube which describes it possibly better than I do here...
I was wondering how many users have the same problem. I had been looking here and found something about cleaning the pins but that does not really improve anything (at least not for me)
So who else has it??
Look at the video here:
http://youtu.be/x6ekvyjw96s (http://youtu.be/x6ekvyjw96s)
Do a search on this forum for the word "deOxit",
much explained about cleaning the anti oxidant coating off the 13 pin - plug pins.
Read
Roland GK 13 pin Cable Maintenance Tips.
www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3132.0 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3132.0)
which is listed as a link here
GR-55 FAQ: TOP THINGS TO KNOW
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4006.0 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4006.0)
My solution for the guy in the video.........................QUIT JERKING ON THE PLUG! But I digress. 9 times out of 10 the suggested fix and thread above works.
Hi Guys - thanks for the reply - I will give it another try... I have done earlier but so far it did not really work...
And Mrchevy - you're right it's not a good idea to move the plug around that much but the guy does show how easily that can be done, how much space the pins have...
with me - I have a lot of noise when I pick up the guitar and hang it around my neck.... most of the time while playing it is pretty much ok, although at times there's also the noise when I step on the EXP pedal, so both sides of the cable/connection seems to have the problem...
I don't want to spray directly into plug or socket so the last time I've done it, I first applied it to a sponge that I cut into the shape of the inside of the midi plug and put the plug in there...
I'm now thinking of using a toothbrush in the hope that has better result...
But I must say I have never had any such problems with normal midi connectors or any other plugs for that matter...
I think Roland should better have opted for a 'screwable' solution...
I have a Yamaha midi wind instrument that has an even smaller plug (less pins though) that you need to plug in first and then there's a ring around it that you screw into the chassis.
With such a connection the problems with GR55 and GK3 could possibly be prevented...
There are no 13 pin plugs and sockets like that, are there?
cheers
Hans
I did a search and found plugs and sockets apparently used in boats:
http://www.ripcamarine.com/epages/01020081.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/ripca2.testwebshop.nl/Products/PP13-STK&ViewAction=ViewAccessory (http://www.ripcamarine.com/epages/01020081.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/ripca2.testwebshop.nl/Products/PP13-STK&ViewAction=ViewAccessory)
wonder if those could be fitted to GR and GK
can't find sizes yet
cheers
Hans
I know those plugs well, they are quite large, but very robust.
They should make the GK system simpler with analog signal & ground + digital ground, +5volts, and data, in a 5 pin plug.
Quote from: creart on October 13, 2013, 11:21:11 PM
I did a search and found plugs and sockets apparently used in boats:
http://www.ripcamarine.com/epages/01020081.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/ripca2.testwebshop.nl/Products/PP13-STK&ViewAction=ViewAccessory (http://www.ripcamarine.com/epages/01020081.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/ripca2.testwebshop.nl/Products/PP13-STK&ViewAction=ViewAccessory)
wonder if those could be fitted to GR and GK
can't find sizes yet
cheers
Hans
@gumtown - ya that could be a better solution I guess....
@elantric - thanx! more food for thought.... although a VGA cable is probably pretty stiff... not really flexible ?
from a post of yours there I understand you think it's mainly the ground connection causing problems? Or am I misinterpreting?
Would a (very) small drop of solder on that part provide for better contact, you think?
cheers
Hans
Yes - Main problem is the lack of adequate robust ground connection.
Remember the only ground connection is the large round DIN Plug shell.
The main culprit in video below is that tiny "finger" contact for the shell on the female jacks disconnecting intermittently from the male Plug's Ground Shell anytime the plug is wiggled and moved.
(http://www.snapagogo.com/uploads/source/2332013/1377136734_1332702744_dcs1091_ground.jpg)
http://youtu.be/x6ekvyjw96s (http://youtu.be/x6ekvyjw96s)
A few folks modify all their 13 pin gear to use pin #9 as a 2nd Ground connection, but that voids your warranty.
All Metal Chassis Mount Female 13 pin DIN jacks solve this Intermittent Ground issue due to a 360 degree all metal contact area for the Male plug.
(http://www.hamradioexpress.com/catalog/images/13pdcmj.jpg)
Gumbo sells a version that accepts the Roland locking plugs here
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8888.0 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8888.0)
I just give a short blast of Caig De-0xit on all my 13 pin connectors every 9 months and don't have any problems
I use Caig De-oxit on a regular basis on all jacks and tube sockets open relays, vol pots, tone pots, rotary switches, any "non sealed "switch contact that has exposure to air will eventually oxidize, and prevent electron flow.
I used to use its predecessor Caig Cramolin R5, but they had to change the formula to be less toxic in the mid 1990s - so they call it Caig De-oxit since mid 90's - but same effectiveness.
Every touring Guitar Tech and amp repairman I know keeps several cans in his tool kit
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41C7H1PR6sL.jpg)
Soak the end of the plug with contact cleaner until its dripping wet and plug and unplug it 10 times at both ends (GK pickup and GR55 13 pin jack). Same way you clean tube sockets in a tube amp. Be aggressive with it and use lots of contact cleaning spray. I do this to all of my pedals -guitars - amps-synths-powered speakers etc...even the mechanical switches in my car. I have had very few problems with any 13 pin cable noises in over 20 years of using them. Before a gig if I am using a cable I have not used for a while (I have 6 of them I think) I will plug and unplug it from both ends 10 times. Works in a pinch.
Thanx Elantric!
I use a European product, Kontakt 60, but that's about the same as you also mention in that other thread...
Toby, the idea of a dripping wet plug just... feels... wrong to me :D
I guess the truth can be somewhere in the middle? I mean, between the short blast and dripping wet?
Today I tried using a toothbrush (no worries, I had a spare one :D) but didn't really soak it...
I already did notice improvement... not completely noise-free yet, so will try some more...
I will have to change my feeling about the 'soaked plug' I guess :D
cheers
Hans
I took the plunge... made the plug pretty wet with fluid an plugged in several times...
Seems to be a WHOLE lot better!!!!!!!
Thanx guys!
Now only if I can find a similar solution for the EXP switch problem I have... which is:
after the pedal is calibrated it works good for a while, then suddenly it seems the threshold for the EXP switch seems totally gone (although when I go to calibration, the value is still there..)
It can either be over-sensitive, so just moving the pedal will switch EXP on or off or under-sensitive so it won't allow me to switch even kicking it like a mule (sort of)
Do you guys have any idea of what could cause that????
Anyway - thanks for the (repeated) heads-on for the deoxi...
cheers
Hans
Re: EXP pedal problem. Is your GR55 updated? Mine seemed to get better along with a bunch of other quirky things after I updated mine. I use the EXP pedal wah and volume a lot and sometimes it seems a little sensitive but it doesn't bother me too much. My GT-10 on the other hand requires me to put my whole weight on it to get it to work because the digital pot is worn out. Need to replace it but wont until I am using it a lot.
Hi Toby - ya it has the latest software...
The switch is not reliable enough - I haven't had any gigs for quite some time, being with a new band and still in practicing stage, but I could not really rely on it....
That's why I'm trying to use the FCB1010 (http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/FCB1010.aspx (http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/FCB1010.aspx)) to control the GR.
I have set up one pedal as volume and the other as the EXP pedal...
problem so far is that I can not send system exclusives from the FCB.
Apparently the little sysex capabilities that were once in the UnO chip, have been taken out because it could only handle 7 bytes of sysex which in most cases - as with the GR - would not be enough.
Now I would need to get an upgrade board for the FCB (http://www.lg-fcb.com/lgfcb_board.php (http://www.lg-fcb.com/lgfcb_board.php)) which will set me back 200 euros.
But with that upgrade I could fully take over the GR from the outside so I wouldn't need to worry about switches not working properly anymore....
On the FCB
- bank switching is a lot easier, there are separate UP and DOWN switches
- more selectable patches per bank (normally 10 per bank, although with the UnO chip I've got it in 'stomp mode' so 5 buttons are global stomp buttons to directly switch an effect on or off..
But indeed... I would need that upgrade board and good SysEx docs to 'take over' the GR, because at the moment the 8 assignments for midi are not enough to switch everything.
The GR's EXP and CTL switching capabilities are quite good so if I can take over that control from the outside, putting each under a FCB stomp, I'm covered :-)
cheers
Hans
How to search the forum
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=2978.0 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=2978.0)
* Control GR-55 with Behringer FCB1010
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3978.msg26886#msg26886 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3978.msg26886#msg26886)
Quote from: Elantric on October 14, 2013, 05:21:46 AM
Yes - Main problem is the lack of adequate robust ground connection.
Remember the only ground connection is the large round DIN Plug shell.
The main culprit in video below is that tiny "finger" contact for the shell on the female jacks disconnecting intermittently from the male Plug's Ground Shell anytime the plug is wiggled and moved.
As Elantric says, the standard Roland jack's only ground connection is where the plug's locking pawl contacts the metal strip inserted across the plastic body of the jack.
It was a specific problem that I addressed when I developed my after-market Synth-Linx jack -- in my unit, the locking pawl of the plug engages with the outer metal body of the jack (only the centre portion is plastic), plus there is an internal 'tab' that exerts positive pressure on the INSIDE of the metal shell of the plug, to positively maintain contact.
More information about the product is at:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8888.0 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8888.0)
(end of shameless self-promotion) ;)
Regards,
gumbo
Creart, don't be afraid to soak that thing. It wont hurt it. Spray inside and out, let soak a few minutes, soak it again, all the time working the plugs IN and OUT not back and forth. I think your worry is shorting it out but that stuff is meant for that purpose and as always you should let it dry out before power is turned on. You can also get a can of CANNED AIR to blow it out afterwards, it wont hurt to speed up the drying process. Air from a compressor is not a good idea as they usually will introduce moisture from the tank. Both items should be readily available at any electronics store
Yeah! Soak It Baby! Soak It!!!
@elantric - thanks - I'll try to do a better job of searching the forum - it is indeed a LOT of available info, but being used to 'browsing/scanning' I apparently take too little time to thoroughly search for items - thanx!
@gumbo - thanks will have a closer look and think about it... but it's just the chassis right? you don't deliver 'improved plugs ? :-)
@Mrchevy and @Toby Krebs
You guys are right (actually all talking about deOxi) - just soak it!!!! :-)
And ya, I was worried, but the noise was getting so annoying that I didn't care anymore and now I'm SOOOOO glad I did it...
I can just pick up my guitar and place it back again without the noise!!! Great - almost like having a new guitar again :-)
cheers
Hans
Quote from: creart on October 16, 2013, 12:26:41 AM
@gumbo - thanks will have a closer look and think about it... but it's just the chassis right? you don't deliver 'improved plugs ? :-)
cheers
Hans
Hi Hans..
Yep, I'm just making Jacks at this point.. ;)
..but Jacks that fit the standard 'plugs' a whole lot better..
This became almost a 'by-product' of redesigning aspects of a Jack that would be easier to fit to an instrument or mount to a chassis than the ones supplied by the manufacturer.. :D
By all means PM me if you want / need to discuss any of these issues further.
Kind regards from Australia,
Peter (gumbo)
Quote
@elantric - thanks - I'll try to do a better job of searching the forum - it is indeed a LOT of available info, but being used to 'browsing/scanning' I apparently take too little time to thoroughly search for items - thanx!
@gumbo - thanks will have a closer look and think about it... but it's just the chassis right? you don't deliver 'improved plugs ? :-)
@Mrchevy and @Toby Krebs
You guys are right (actually all talking about deOxi) - just soak it!!!! :-)
And ya, I was worried, but the noise was getting so annoying that I didn't care anymore and now I'm SOOOOO glad I did it...
I can just pick up my guitar and place it back again without the noise!!! Great - almost like having a new guitar again :-)
cheers
Hans
Glad it has improved things for you. I have drilled holes and installed effect loops in both my GR55s-replaced capacitors in my Marshall and other amps- milled and refretted the necks on most of my guitars-changed pickups and added EMG boost circuits to them- shot freon into my cars and RVs' air conditioning system etc....etc... and I am still alive LOL!!! Don't be afraid to get your hands dirty with any of this music gear stuff. It can't hurt you unless you do something stupid and it's a hell of as lot of fun. I have days when I would rather work on my gear than play it!
@gumbo - I'll keep it in mind... don't really know how 'ready' I am to go and change everything... will probably depend on how much trouble the current plug/chassis will give me in the near future.. thanks Peter!
@toby - ya strangely enough I seem to leave my guitars alone when it comes to drilling etc. :) In the past I would probably have picked up a hammer to have a healthy discussion with the GR in an earlier stage :D... I must be getting old LOL
cheers
Hans
"Drill Baby Drill"-Sarah Palin
I recently ordered this one from UneekSupply.com, and so far I'm happy with it:
http://tinyurl.com/mck4sux (http://tinyurl.com/mck4sux)
I believe I first saw item this posted in another section. It's 10 feet, perfect for sitting, and the cable is thinner and lighter. I prepped it per the tips here and so far so good.
Hey, my roland cable broke, and replaced it with a 13 pin from uneek supply. Im running a Roland-Fender GC1. My A string does not send signal to the GR-55 now, could be it was from before, but I think all 6 were functional at the time. I know elantric or gumtown mentioned something about the 13 pins from aftermarket being wired wrong. Anyone have this problem or is it something else (I HOPE NOT THE PICKUP)...Ari
Sounds like a bad cable - I carry at least 4
read
How to prepare and maintain your 13 pin GK cable
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3132.msg20110#msg20110 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3132.msg20110#msg20110)
Cable is BRAND NEW :(
read
How to prepare and maintain your 13 pin GK cable
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3132.msg20110#msg20110 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3132.msg20110#msg20110)
missed the "prepare" part-thanks elantric!
Also read
www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=1584.50 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=1584.50)
today Best - Tronics sells a quality 13 pin cable for $44
Hi Ari (Ari sounds Finnish to me, Hyvää Päivää ;D)
You should always have at least 2 cables. You need to isolate the problem. With a second cable you know if the cable is ok or not ( a second cable is good the have anyhow). If its not the cable it's either the guitar connector or the synth connector. To separate this you need a second GK guitar( a second GK guitar is good to have anyhow ;)
It was inevitable, I have used the same GK cable for over 5 years, luckily I have always had a new backup cable on hand.
The gig sound check went fine, but halfway into the first song of the gig, my tone suddenly took a dive.
While still trying to play the first song, in between holding improved sustained notes, using a free hand to wiggle amp speaker cable, input cable, and turning the volume up to max to 'get by'.
That worked for the next song, then into the third one, the volume dropped again, now to nothing.
A frantic unplug of the GK cable at the bass end did nothing, but at the GR-55 end, suddenly "full volume - with vengeance", no volume, full volume,... and on and on, intermittent cutting in/out/in/out.
At last I found the problem, I quick cable change and I was away again.
The first bit of equipment malfunction I have had in many years.
The whole experience left me 'on edge' for the rest of the gig..
Time to order a new GK cable.
Nightmare. I have been going for many years without failure. But you never know when disaster strikes...
(It's always nice to disagree upon first meeting, don't you think?)
This forum seems both trustworthy and comprehensive on Gk things, and I would not dare challenge Elantrics' or any other forum members' knowledge.
But, based on hands-on investigation, I must disagree on the supposedly bad ground connection of the connector's circular shell to the female input.
Starting off, the following view on the supposedly "flaky" ground contact is not correct in my opinion:
Quote from: Elantric on February 12, 2011, 01:21:46 AM
The "achilles heel" weakest link is the tiny mating electrical contact finger for the large round Shell 'Ground" connection on the female 13 pin jacks on your guitar, GK-3 or VG-99, GR-55. If this important electrical connection is flaky - you will have problems just as you are currently experiencing ! (see yellow circle below)
(http://www.snapagogo.com/uploads/source/2332013/1377136734_1332702744_dcs1091_ground.jpg)
This suggests the ground contact is through the locking pin or circular shell contacting the inputs' chassis only. But close inspection with good lighting will reveal that there are also two spring contacts on the female input. On the GK-2a these are opposite the locking pin, and are one with the PCB's two solder joints for ground. On the GR-33 they are on the locking pin side, also one with the ground solder joints.
While at some point these two contacts may get corroded enough to suggest a bad ground contact, they press the shell of the connector hard enough to become "scraped" every time a plug is inserted.
Ofcourse I've had my share of Gk cable issues, too. Mostly crackles, noise and simultaneous erratic triggering when moving an older cable. And over the years I have tried several - and sometimes odd - methods to get rid of the cable noise, thinking it was caused by build-up of galvanic voltages/ static charges.
The only method that worked for a short while was vigorous stretching, bending or rolling of the cable, mostly near the connectors, as Eight_Stringer mentioned also.
And sometimes - but mostly not - applying contact cleaner.
Then, when I experienced failing leads in 2 of my older Gk cables (pins 5 and 10 respectively), I disassembled the seemingly vulnerable connectors of the failing pin 5 cable, that being completely useless anyway.
Then I found out what is the main cause of the noise issue and erratic triggering:
Bad electrical contact between the braided cable shield and the 13 pin connector. The copper braid is simply CLAMPED to the connector, the clamp acting as both strain relief and ground contact. After some time this connection will have corroded and maybe also worked itself slightly loose.
This explains why stretching a cable near the connector may do away with the noisyness for a while. And why spraying will work occasionally, namely only when the spray reaches the corroded clamp-and-shield in the rear of the connector and both connector AND cable are manipulated to "scrape" off corrosion/residu.
Moreover, I came to think that my earlier stretching activities were probably the cause of the failing pin 5 and 10 leads, since the solder connections to the pins were still OK.
So I won't stretch no more ....
Then I disassembled the other cable's connectors and SOLDERED the braided shield to the clamp.
The result: haven't heard a single cable noise, erratic trigger or crackle since!This also makes converting pin 9 into an extra ground connection unneccesary, so it would still be available as a spare for whatever we would like it to be.
The other thing I noticed, is the pins fitting in the connector being pretty loose. I don't know yet if this may also be a source of intermiitent contact.
But to prevent any unwanted triggering by bad pin contact I lock the cable between the guitar body and strap, like I would do with any regular guitar cord.
PS And by carefully positioning a cable bend and locking it into position with gaffer tape I even got my pin 10 connection functional again (for home use).
Any disagreeing views on my diagreeing view are welcome!
Hi, please excuse me as I am an electrical novice: is the simply clamped braiding in the cable or the connector on the guitar/GK3 or 2 or whatever? If the cable, I wonder how folks like Gittler, DPA etc. are addressing it?
tTo member "Piezo",
Excellent Analysis in your 1st post - Thanks for your input.
I must be a much more stationary performer than most here as I have had only one 13 pin cable fail on me in 25 years.I just make sure that I am not standing on them or that the female singer is not either and I have been okay lol!
Quote from: Toby Krebs on December 29, 2014, 08:47:02 AM
I must be a much more stationary performer than most here as I have had only one 13 pin cable fail on me in 25 years.I just make sure that I am not standing on them or that the female singer is not either and I have been okay lol!
This has pretty much been my experience as well
I just got a nice precision soldering iron (small pointed tip)....so, I decided to try fixing 2 old cables that both had noise/ hum issues. I used an ohm meter to test the cables. They both showed a lot of 'bouncing around' when reading the shield grounds. I opened up the ends, by pushing up the locking tab (opposite side from the grounding contact), then sliding the plastic cover back over the cable wire. The little grounding contact just 'floats' on the shield case, and falls off with the plastic cover pulled back (not very sturdy). I retouched the solder on the shield wire, then put a small amount of solder on the pivot point of the floating contact (while it was loose from the assembly). I then put it in place, melted the solder I had added....making a firm contact (no more floating). I made sure the contact point was stuck out (no longer moves when pressing the unlock button). Then slid the cover back into place (it clicks). Tried them out....NO NOISE! ;D
They still come loose from the GR-55 easily, and snap into place firmly.
Thanks Jim for reporting your Noise "Fix!" on your Gk 13 Cable Ground connection,
Its surprising to learn very few Roland GK13 Cables employ Soldered connections, instead most use Crimped electrical connections on the 13 pin DIN Plugs, and these often go bad over time!
(http://www.vetco.net/catalog/images/PAN-DIN-46000-13P-3.jpg)
Below is a soldered connection
(http://info-coach.fr/atari/hardware/_interfaces/video/din13%20pict.jpg)
The ramifications of an intermittent Ground Connection anywhere along the GK 13 pin cable can be damaging - and its less of a problem for the other 13 pin gear , where an intermittent 13 pin cable ground for Guitar to MIDI, PCM Synth box (i.e. no COSM GUITAR MODELING - specifically the Roland GR-1, GR-09,GR-20, GR-30, GR-33) the CPU that triggers MIDI events typically can recover from a temporary loss of Ground - not so with the VG-8, VG-88, VG-99,GR-55, GP-10 - temporary loss of Ground on the later will send high volume buzz, static, noise into your Amp/PA and that type behavior can ruin the chances of your acoustic guitar / tabla player duo getting re-hired. It ruins the show everytime if your GK 13 cable make noise anytime your GK Cable is touched / Moved / vibrated/ impacted by the rhythmic cycle of the drum riser,or sitting on top of a subwoofer on a live stage.
Its typically a bad 13 pin cable that has crimped (and not soldered) ground (shield)wire inside the male DIN13 plugs on each end of the Gk Cable. check that if contact cleaner doe not deliver instant positive results. Turns out that direct Exposure to the air we all breath tends to corrode all electrical contacts. Thats why the Top tier electronic companies use Mil-Spec components, with oxygen free contacts - like a $200 LEMO Connector
http://www.lemo.com/catalog/ROW/UK_English/f_series.pdf (http://www.lemo.com/catalog/ROW/UK_English/f_series.pdf)
http://www.lemo.com/en/rugged-connector/f-connector?domain=%5Bterm_node_tid_1%5D (http://www.lemo.com/en/rugged-connector/f-connector?domain=%5Bterm_node_tid_1%5D)
(http://www.snapagogo.com/uploads/source/162015/1421466153_456422817_Lemo.PNG)
QuoteSwitzerland
LEMO S.A.
Chemin de Champs-Courbes 28
P.O. Box 194
CH-1024 Ecublens, Switzerland
Tel : 00 41 21 695 16 00
Fax : 00 41 21 695 16 02
Mail : info@lemo.com
Roland doesn't use that type - - instead it employs Circular
DIN 13 connection
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIN_connector (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIN_connector)
A DIN connector is an electrical connector that was originally standardized by the Deutsches Institut für Normung (DIN), the German national standards organization. There are DIN standards for a large number of different connectors, therefore the term "DIN connector" alone does not unambiguously identify any particular type of connector unless the document number of the relevant DIN standard is added (e.g., "DIN 41524 connector"). Some DIN connector standards are:
DIN 41524, for circular connectors often used for audio signals
DIN 41612, rectangular connectors used to connect plug-in cards to a back plane or motherboard
DIN 41652 D-subminiature connectors used for computer data and video
In the context of consumer electronics, the term "DIN connector" commonly refers to a member of a family of circular connectors that were initially standardized by DIN for analog audio signals. Some of these connectors have also been used in analog video applications and for digital interfaces such as MIDI or the IBM AT computer keyboard (later PS/2 connectors for keyboard and mouse are Mini-DIN connectors). The original DIN standards for these connectors are no longer in print and have been replaced with the equivalent international standard IEC 60130-9.The Roland GK-13 Specification supplies only one Ground Reference connection for:
7 unbalanced analog audio signals (6 strings+Normal PU)
2 DC Voltage Controls ( GK-VOL) , Voltage Ladder Input (Pin#9 Selector Switch Status),
2 GPI Inputs ( S1, S2 momentary switches)
+7VDC Power
-7VDC Power
Thats all 13 pins - and a good Electronic Design engineer with a few years real world experience would tell you "Hey! You Forgot something!
They would have budgeted multiple Ground pins - with a separate Analog Signal Ground Reference, Digital Signal Ground Reference, Power Return Ground, RF/EMI Shield
Yet every Guitar Center Salesman is still trained to call this a MIDI Cable By contrast the older Roland 24 pin GR-300 , GR-700 a large "Rectangular Shell connection which employed 4 separate reliable Ground connections!
http://www.joness.com/gr300/24pin.htm (http://www.joness.com/gr300/24pin.htm)
If you have a trusted 13 pin cable with Soldered contacts and Ground shield - and STILL have problems with noise during cable movement -
the problem is typically oxidized contact on the GK Jack on your Instrument or the GK Input jack on the Ground contact here:
The weakest link is the shell electrical contact on the female 13 pin DIN jack.
Member "Piezo" wrote>
Quote But close inspection with good lighting will reveal that on Roland Gear, there are also two spring contacts on the female input. On the GK-2a these are opposite the locking pin, and are one with the PCB's two solder joints for ground. On the GR-33 they are on the locking pin side, also one with the ground solder joints.
While at some point these two contacts may get corroded enough to suggest a bad ground contact, they press the shell of the connector hard enough to become "scraped" every time a plug is inserted.
True!
But Many of these "GK" DIN-13 Female jacks particularly on
third party GK accessories have a very poor contact with the Male DIN plug's Shell Ground connection. Mid song during a live show if you hear gargles of static noises coincident with moving the GK Cable - you know its time for Cable replacement, repair or a short spritz of Caig Deoxit D-5 contact cleaner, make direct contact with the internal Ground Contact deep within Female DIN 13 Jack (GK INPUT) on your VG-8, VG-88, VG-99,GR-55, GP-10 Hex COSM, RACKVAX
(http://www.snapagogo.com/uploads/source/2332013/1377136734_1332702744_dcs1091_ground.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41C7H1PR6sL.jpg)
I've run across another issue that I haven't seen anyone else mention, but I've encountered with at least three Roland cables. What happens is the plastic sleeve on the plug shifts forward, which stops the plug from going very deeply into the socket and increasing the chances of bad connections. Pull the sleeve back into place and the plug connects properly again.
Anyone else encounter this?
Quote from: stratrat on April 14, 2015, 03:14:50 PM
I've run across another issue that I haven't seen anyone else mention, but I've encountered with at least three Roland cables. What happens is the plastic sleeve on the plug shifts forward, which stops the plug from going very deeply into the socket and increasing the chances of bad connections. Pull the sleeve back into place and the plug connects properly again.
Anyone else encounter this?
I encountered something similar, with Best-Tronics 13-pin cables. On at least 2 of their cables (I stopped buying them when I realized this).
Instead of sliding forward, toward the end, the plastic sleeve on these BestTronic cables slides backward, away from the end. That makes it difficult to remove the cables, because the sleeve is the part you squeeze, and it pushes the metal locking pin. It's hard to get them out of my gear without sliding or wiggling the plug... and I don't want to do that very much. I'd rather risk messing up a cable than the whole VG or GR unit.
I've got a pair of newer cables, from CodeSmart (forum member here), that don't have this issue. I recommend CodeSmart's cables, having tried 2 of them so far. A+.
Warning - Wrong GK 13 Cable may damage your GR/GP/VG ProcessorBe sure you purchased a genuine Roland GK compatible 13 pin DIN cable Get an ohm meter and verify all 13 pins are wired "1:1" at both sides of the cable, and no pins are shorted together on the same end
Know that most 13 PIN DIN cables are designed for Kenwood / Clarion Car Stereo CD changers - and those are NOT compatible with Roland Gk Guitar Synths
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3132.msg28280#msg28280 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3132.msg28280#msg28280)
(http://image.pinout.net/pinout_13_pin_files/Clarion_C-Bus.gif)
QuoteI'm not using a Roland GKC 13 pin cable, but instead a cheap one off of ebay. Is that the problem?
Sad to inform - that cheap ebay Gk 13 pin cable might have damaged your GR-20 (http://wa8lmf.net/miscinfo/KenDIN13-Male.GIF)
It shorts the +7VDC rail (pin #12 ) to ground,and "poof" goes the Roland GR-20 , GR-55, GP-10, VG-8, VG-88, VG-99, Axon, ATG-1 . . . . ]
Be advised 90% of the ebay sellers for 13 pin Roland cables are actually reselling old Kenwood Ham Radio / car stereo CD changer cables and these can damage your Roland / Boss gear big time!
read this thread
Latest on GK 13 pin Cable Sourceshttps://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=1584.0
QuoteAny other way besides private messages?
(https://btpa.com/skin/ideal_comfort/images/custom/BTPA_COM_FINAL4X6.jpg)
(https://btpa.com/images/P/MIDI13-1.jpg)
Straight to Straight 13 Pin Midi Cable with Locking Connectors, made with CA-0842 Shielded 13 Conductor Midi Cable.
Compatible with Roland guitar synths.https://btpa.com/13-Pin-Midi/
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01CPKKVSI/ref=s9_acsd_hps_bw_c_x_2_w
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51B%2B226UjUL.jpg)
https://www.facebook.com/myBeatBuddy/videos/693404451082992/
This will extend the life of your GK 13 cable
$19.99
https://singularsound.com/product/cabli-instrument-cable-management/
https://youtu.be/-kWn-18kwLI
Got a couple cheap 13-pin cables on eBay that were described as GK compatible. They just arrived and I tested them and they are fully 1-to-1 (pin-to-pin). Looked like about 1.6 ohms end to end for all of them.
The cable itself seems decent quality for the price. Will test later.
Quote from: stub on May 28, 2021, 04:02:37 PM
Got a couple cheap 13-pin cables on eBay that were described as GK compatible. They just arrived and I tested them and they are fully 1-to-1 (pin-to-pin). Looked like about 1.6 ohms end to end for all of them.
The cable itself seems decent quality for the price. Will test later.
what was the ebay seller ID?
Quote from: admin on May 28, 2021, 06:36:30 PM
what was the ebay seller ID?
get-wired-usa out of Tucson, AZ.
I tested one of them on my gig and it worked perfectly. A two-pack for $30 seems pretty reasonable.