the Lameness of Piano Patches for Guitar Synth

Started by Rhcole, April 01, 2014, 06:19:38 PM

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Rhcole

Just spent a few minutes on Youtube watching some GR-55 etc. videos for fun. But, it made me shake my heard and sincerely wonder- Why would ANYBODY play fingerpicked A Min chords through a piano patch? To me, the sad truth is that guitars just don't sound good on most piano patches.  Tracking is hard to begin with, but unless you're multitracking, you sound like a piano player with one broken arm. Yeah, yeah I know you gotta' think like a keyboard player, etc. There are a few electric pianos that I really like.  A few virtuosos can also do anything with any instrument, guitar synth piano being just one case. But, I just think guitar and piano don't mix well.

Now, we DO get our revenge when the keyboard player tries to "strum" a 12 string acoustic sample. Yeah, THAT'S convincing!

I bring this up because when I was advising wet-behind-the-ears guitar players about guitar synth on another board, they inevitably brightened up and said "Can I play a piano?".

You can get piano sounds- but I wonder if you can PLAY it.

Kevin M

I know many will disagree with me, but I really hate the idea of playing a piano, saxophone, etc, via a guitar synth.  It just seems terribly wrong!  I prefer the idea of a guitar synth to create new sounds and textures instead.

musicman65

Agreed...but, piano parts triggered via guitar can be convincing in a band mix when performed by a technical player. It isn't easy.

A few songs I cover in a live band with g2m piano/keys:

All Summer Long - Kid Rock
Spooky - A. R. S.
Home Sweet Home - Motley Crew
Easy - The Commodors
Dark Side - Eddie & the Cruisers

Honestly, its a chore because playing guitar (as a guitar) takes much less concentration...but somebody has to do it and I'm not hiring a KB player.

The point of a guitar synth is to make MUSICAL sounds....new, old, authentic, surreal....anything goes. KB Synth players aren't bound by what "seems right". Those are just mental barriers we create for ourselves.

pedwards2932

I'd agree there is no comparison with a real piano player and a guitar player playing piano if you compare them side by side (they have 10 fingers to hit the notes, but if you need a piano part in a band situation the GR55 can be pretty convincing.  We recently added my fiance to our band and she is a very good piano player....I immediately stopped playing the piano parts but when we play as a three piece I can easily switch back.  I would disagree that playing synth sounds just for new sounds.....many of us play in cover bands that require particular "instruments" and for that matter keyboardists have been doing this in bands far longer than guitarists have been doing it.

GovernorSilver

Quote from: musicman65 on April 01, 2014, 07:33:36 PM
KB Synth players aren't bound by what "seems right".

As a regular on the Keyboard Corner forum, I disagree.  ;D  A lot of those guys (not too many female members there) play in cover bands and/or traditional (non-sequencer ;)) music styles.  Those dudes are definitely set in their ways as far as sound choices go.  I'm not going to crack on them too much though, as I've gotten some very good advice from them on piano playing and music theory.

Is it really true most GR-55 owners just play piano sounds?  I wouldn't do that if I had one, but I've had the luxury of childhood piano lessons, followed by remedial lessons in college.  I haven't gotten one because I still have a lot to learn about sound design on my VG-99.  I've got the likes of Bill Ruppert and aliensporebomb to look up to in that field.  8)

Elantric

#5
In my case I play both guitar and keys. And I'm not that picky about my keyboard - but dislike a "too-firm" key action (Akai MPK) . I found it easier to set up a small Korg Microstation keyboard and reach around and play occasional keyboard parts, or trigger sounds from the Korg Microstation using my TriplePlay guitar (using iConnectMIDI).
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6767.msg66401#msg66401
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep10/articles/korg-microstation.htm

I'd rather do all the above instead of hire a bad keyboard player.
Know this,if you have a guitar based band, and you hire the wrong keyboard player to "fill out the sound" but the new keyboard player insists on adding keyboard parts to every song ,yet refuses to perform double duty playing percussion or tambourine when keys are not wanted in the tune , your bands sound will be altered significantly. Finding a keyboard player who knows how to hold back and groove like Benmont Tench is a rare find, because most keyboard players "overplay" and destroy the bands dynamics and rhythm.


But if your true focus is playing Piano with a Guitar - look no further than a Fishman Tripleplay

Or get a used Roland GR-33 - those actually track Pianos better than the GR-55

pedwards2932

And it isn't just about pianos.......try playing a convincing sax with a keyboard and then try to play the same thing with a guitar synth and for me it is much easier to simulate the feel and style of a sax with the guitar.  You are able to slide and stretch notes a lot easier with the guitar.....I have never felt comfortable trying to do that with the roller wheels that keyboardists have to use.

Rhcole

Well, this is veering dangerously into the "but can the audience even tell the difference" zone. The guy who has thrown down a few brews and has his eyes on a girl could care less how good your piano parts sound. If you asked him the next day, he would be able to remember that there was a band playing. Probably.

That guy wouldn't care about your faux sax sound either unless you used a sampled mosquito for the synth voice. Maybe not even then.

germanicus

I think the biggest impediment to achieving a convincing piano emulation in many cases, is the lack of implementation of sostenuto and damper pedal functionality. Mapping and properly using a damper or sustain pedal does quite a bit to improving the illusion. Listeners are used to hearing them on pianos. Its absence makes it sound 'fake'.

For the software users out there, check out Toontracks EZ keys libraries. Fantastic grand piano and the best MK1 rhodes ive heard.
My albums done with modeling/guitar synth at http://music.steamtheory.com

JTV69/59P/Godin LGXT/Multiac ACS/Variax 700 AC
Helix/FTP/GP10/VG99/SY1000
Traynor k4

thebrushwithin

If the tracking is optimized, there are really only limits imposed by the player. Here is a great example, with a Ztar, and by the way, this guy taps guitar, and guitar synth, just as well. I'm betting he would be extremely close with an FTP.
We have few excuses because of present technology.  :)

Rhcole

Clearly a virtuosic performance. Still, a Z-tar is not a GK; Z-tars have wired frets and are closer to synth keyboards than appears at first glance.

He certainly proves that six notes at a time doesn't have to be a limitation, though.

GovernorSilver

Quote from: germanicus on April 02, 2014, 03:23:49 PM
I think the biggest impediment to achieving a convincing piano emulation in many cases, is the lack of implementation of sostenuto and damper pedal functionality. Mapping and properly using a damper or sustain pedal does quite a bit to improving the illusion.

Using a damper/sustain pedal to mimic piano-like behavior is on my to-do list for my VG-99.  I have no interest in playing piano sounds on guitar, but would like to try momentary sustain of notes by stepping on a pedal, with smooth fading.  Guitarists kind of get there using echo/delay and/or reverb, but it's not quite the same as the damper action on a piano.

clearlight

My Two cents.
People should plau what they want and need to play in any case,
That being said, a pedal and holding out notes makes a huge difference for piano parts on guitar synth.
That being siad I feel you have to play instruments "like the real thing" intention wise.

They aren't perfect but they work in band situations and allow
you to "pretend" to play a sax or flute or any instrument you are not a player of.

THAT being said I love the idea of pushing into "new" territory.
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Tape

While I agree that straight up playing sax/piano/whatever on guitar is lame (and terribly corny), there is this:



And I gotta say, it sounds pretty good

Toby Krebs

I play guitar electric and acoustic/12 string/piano lots of B3/ lots of horn section parts etc...I even solo over Stevie Wonder( I Wish) and Play That Funky Music using my horns together with clean strat and elec. piano tones. All three at once .If you know what you are doing and have some theoretical knowledge and have worked with great horn/keys players as I have it's a lot of fun to do and I will not hire anymore below average keyboard players who show up with an ironing board as a keyboard stand(late as well) and play crappy stock patches on a 10 year old Yamaha kweyboard. I eat those guys for breakfast and a lot of what I am hired for is because of my keys ability using the GR55 synth.

cooltouch

#15
It has been my own experience that, if I want to play another instrument using my GR-33 and actually have it sound like that other instrument, it either requires a fair amount of arrangement -- as in piano -- or a serious amount of tweaking done to the MIDI track using the Controllers and the Event List. IMO, there is no substitute for getting very familiar with the ins and outs of MIDI Controllers and the Event List to get close to an instrument's genuine sound -- especially if it is a wind or bowed instrument. That way, you have control of legato (slurs) and vibrato. Getting those two aspects right go a long way toward providing a convincing sound. Obviously, however, this isn't something that can be done in a live situation, but for composition and recording it becomes very useful.

Now as for piano, if you play piano then you know that it is seldom when you're playing more than four, maybe five notes, simultaneously. So the sheer number of notes is seldom the problem. The problem lies in the way a piano keyboard is laid out versus a guitar's tuning. It is very easy to stack thirds on a piano, all the way up to a 13th chord. With a guitar, stacking thirds much past 1-3-5 becomes problematic. To do a 1-3-5-7, typically you have to drop either the fifth or the third (in the same octave). And from a 9th on upward, rearranging and dropping the voices becomes even more creative. Not saying that keyboardists don't rearrange voicing. But they don't have to the way we do on the guitar. I've played classical guitar for many years. It is very common for music originally written for another instrument to be transcribed for classical guitar. And it has been my experience that, almost without exception, the most difficult transcriptions in the guitar repertory were originally written for keyboard. Keyboardists are just blessed with such freedom of motion that guitarists don't have available. But a good transcription of a keyboard part can go a long way. I'm reminded of a bit of transcription I did myself years ago -- I transcribed Michael McDonald's keyboard part in the Doobie Brothers' "Taking it to the Streets" for guitar. It sounded right and ended up being not all that difficult to play -- for a classical player. It wouldn't have worked trying to play it with a pick.

So I guess what I'm getting at is simply that a little bit of creativity can go a long way. Don't expect to toggle the "Grand Piano" setting and then bang out some chords, and hope it to sound convincing. A little finesse can go a long way.
Best,
Michael

arkieboy

#16
Used to do pianos occasionally on guitar synth way-back-when because a couple of the songs worked so well that way.  Not sure how much you can do on the GR55 but here's what I used to do

       
  • play finger style
  • make sure the guitar synth is set up relatively insensitively - save a tracking setting especially for the piano patches if you can.  You'll loose dynamic range but you won't sound like Les Dawson
  • set the tracking mode to be chromatic so hammerons sound like you picked a new note
  • route an instantaneous controller to the damper function of the sound module.  You can now ornament your part by moving inversions while you have the damper (sustain) pedal depressed
  • layer the bottom string with a piano sound an octave below so it sounded like you were playing octaves with your left hand
  • put some strings under there too, again with more octave doubling on some of the lower strings.  Bring them in on a volume pedal
  • put a lot of thought into your part and learn it well so you can soldier on if you get a glitch
  • create a patch for each song with the correct combination of damper, strings, octave doubling.  Consider having a couple of patches for a song - I know you can't do this on a 55 - so you can change patches between (say) 5ths and octaves on the bottom string
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supernicd

I am more a keyboard player than a guitar player in terms of skill.  But I play more guitar live than keyboard for the reason Elantric mentions - when playing rock/pop guitar-oriented songs, adding a keyboard part that the song wasn't built for can subtract more than it really adds.  Much better to 'fill in the sound' on those tunes with some rhythm guitar.

My experience trying to play piano patches on a guitar synth is that it's pretty frustrating.  I'd no sooner try to do this than I would play a crunchy guitar part on a keyboard.  Not only is a fretboard not laid out for piano-style parts, but for whatever reason, piano tones seem to be the absolute worst for glitching, mistriggering, and poor tracking.  Doesn't seem like on a sample/PCM-based guitar synth there should be much difference in tracking from one tone to another but there is, IMO.  I wouldn't try to discourage anyone from doing it.  Just noting that in my experience, it's more trouble than it's worth.  But if you can make a part sound good, why not.

That said, a lot of other instruments, like pedwards mentioned, I find are more fun to play on a guitar synth than on keys.  Sax is a good example.  For whatever reason, at least for me, the fretboard and strings allow you to get closer to the real expression of that instrument than ebony and ivory and a mod wheel.
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DreamTheory

Quick Piano Tip: If you are multitracking, record one track for left hand and one for right hand. ;)
electric: Epiphone Dot semihollow body, acoustic: mahogany jumbo, recording: Cubase Artist 11 or Tascam DP008

montyrivers

For me best results for piano or percussion sounds on guitar to midi = strum setting or highest dynamic setting, dampen strings above nut and below bridge, most importantly HOLD/SUSTAIN pedal is your friend for glissando and slurs.

DreamTheory

OK I admit the piano and other "imitated" instruments are somewhat lame in that they do not sound real under direct examination, but I have used piano very successfully as a background texture behind a singer songwriter playing acoustic guitar. Mix some real instruments with some fake ones and you can get away with it. In a large band some instruments only ever get to play a simple, minimal part. These applications are when GR 55 shines. The same is true for keyboard synths too, by the way, which is a more fair comparison. In my opinion mimicking real instruments is great in the studio/multitrack environment. You can play the left hand of the piano on a separate track, for instance. But I do not do it live, because it seems wierd.

Use smoke and mirrors. Create illusion. I put some heavy delay on a muted trumpet solo and that distracts the listener from the fakeness.

Also if you play around in a piano patch, you can find a piece that fits it, or even write a piece that works with it. Play to the strengths of that patch.

One of the things that is really brilliant about GR 55 is that you can use it to mimic a real instrument (to varying degrees or even maybe just a limited extent), OR you can use it to create really cool modified guitars (like EHX pedals) OR you can do both at the same time. Try a slow attack PCM tone emerging from behind your normal pickups. Change the octave, or throw in a low pass filter, and you will get something far removed from that accordion or whatever you started with. Go where no one has gone before!
electric: Epiphone Dot semihollow body, acoustic: mahogany jumbo, recording: Cubase Artist 11 or Tascam DP008

GovernorSilver

Quote from: songbirdwhosings on May 05, 2014, 07:54:07 PM
Quick Piano Tip: If you are multitracking, record one track for left hand and one for right hand. ;)

I've been thinking for a while it'd be fun to do this with Bach Two-Part Inventions, since I already have the Inventions and Sinfonias book for piano.

DreamTheory

To speak directly to the piano question: Listen to the piano part in the 1974 Billboard #1 hit "Tin Man" by America (about 2 minutes in). It's a great little lick, but certainly played with one hand. No reason a GR 55 could not do that.
electric: Epiphone Dot semihollow body, acoustic: mahogany jumbo, recording: Cubase Artist 11 or Tascam DP008

jshortz

Quote from: Toby Krebs on April 10, 2014, 06:04:27 PM
I play guitar electric and acoustic/12 string/piano lots of B3/ lots of horn section parts etc...I even solo over Stevie Wonder( I Wish) and Play That Funky Music using my horns together with clean strat and elec. piano tones. All three at once .If you know what you are doing and have some theoretical knowledge and have worked with great horn/keys players as I have it's a lot of fun to do and I will not hire anymore below average keyboard players who show up with an ironing board as a keyboard stand(late as well) and play crappy stock patches on a 10 year old Yamaha kweyboard. I eat those guys for breakfast and a lot of what I am hired for is because of my keys ability using the GR55 synth.

I would really like to try your Play That Funky Music patch.Is it available here in the Forum?

Elantric

QuoteI would really like to try your Play That Funky Music patch.Is it available here in the Forum?

Toby Krebs posted dozens of GR-55 patches he uses at his gig. Each patch uses Multiple Control Assignments for the Expression pedal to allow you to "pan" between rhythm and solo tones withing each patch  - this allow you to use One GR-55 patch per song and circumvent the long mute silence gap that occurs when changing GR-55 patches during a song.   
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8709.0