GK-3 with GR-55 COSM tones on 1) Acoustic 2) Semi-acous 3) Solidbody

[godinloverguy]

Hi guys,

Loving my GR-55 !!
Testing out the COSM models
I have (3) GK-3 pups mounted on (3) different guitars.
1) Acoustic
2) Semi-acoustic
3) Solid Body

Just wanted to know if any of you had noticed the same thing. That the COSM models and effects sound completely different tonally between the 3 guitars. I would have thought that the GK-3 would negate the effect of the guitar body ( ie soild, semi-acoustic, and solidbody)  so that a say, Van Halen tone would sound the exact same on all 3 guitars. Not the case !!
Any comments? Thanks!

[Elantric]

Loving my GR-55 !!
Testing out the COSM models
I have (3) GK-3 pups mounted on (3) different guitars.
1) Acoustic
2) Semi-acoustic
3) Solid BodyJust wanted to know if any of you had noticed the same thing. That the COSM models and effects sound completely different tonally between the 3 guitars.

Correct- the underlying Guitar Type plays a significant role in the final sound , your observation 100% matches my experience.
More here
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=12308.msg89402#msg89402



And if you use same GR-55 COSM Model patches with a Nylon String Godin MultiAc, the COSM Model sound is even more removed from what you would hear from the identical GR-55 patch using a Strat with a GK-3.


Read thread below which sums up the situation:

* * Hex Pickup Type Advice. (GK-3 vs Piezo)
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=5043.msg34288#msg34288


Also while taking about differences in guitars  - I find it odd most users of Godin MultiAc Nylon String Guitars with Piezos have a hard time grasping why many VG/GR/GP-10  patches created by a Strat with GK-3 sound horribly wrong with Nylon String guitars. Remember on the Roland hex COSM Modeling systems the String is the source oscillator. If your nylon string guitar has typical Classical guitar characteristics of rapid note decay and poor sustain, indeed the VG COSM Rock Guitar Patch will also have poor sustain. 


Its a common misconception that the underlying guitar type the GK hex pickup is mounted on makes no difference in your final Roland COSM Modeled guitar sound. Even Roland Sales Reps misrepresent this as "fact".

Let me confirm that the Guitar type you choose to use for the VG-99 or GR-55 plays a crucial role in your final output tone from these Roland systems. Other important aspects are your Guitar's intonation, action, String type and gauge, fret wear,  and playing technique - Piezo or Mag hex pickup type all make a big difference in your final output tone with your VG-99 or GR-55.

[godinloverguy]

Hi Elantric,

OK cool. Love the fact that the GK-3 Divided pickup must actually vibrate along with the slab or layer of wood that it is 3M taped to, and the characteristic of that vibration is added to the vibration of the steel string that is picked up magnetically by the GK-3 pup.
Meaning that it will be essentially impossible to get a Van Halen tone with the GK-3 mounted on an acoustic guitar no matter how much one tries to tweak the patch
At least that is what I have found tonight after 3 hours of experimentation

[Elantric]

FWIW  the same concept applies to Solidbody Guitars using identical specs  and Magnetic Pickups, just different wood.

In 1999 I worked for Ernie Ball /MusicMan and we built four identical MM Axis Solidbody guitars with identical Dimarzio Pickups

But each had different body composition: Alder, Ash, Mahogany, Basswood, The results were four different sounding guitars

[godinloverguy]

Hi Elantric!

Amazing! Even the different woods made a tonal difference huh.  OK, I guess that means that I will keep all 3 guitars.  I love hearing those very slight tonal nuances. I mean I knew that normal magnetic pups would pickup the differences between an acoustic body, a semi-acoustic, and a solid body, but I thought that the GK-3 would be different. But then I guess the GK-3 is essentially a magnetic pup too, just divided.

[Fusion]

Physics wise it is the density and resonance of various woods rather than the actual magical type of wood. In general pickups make the difference. I have exotic wood guitars and some rather cheap woods and often the cheap woods sounded better because the pickups were just better. Been said a lot of times in arguments that an electric pickup does not "hear" woods but the difference is in sustain, and density of the guitar. How the neck is attached the string nut and everything really. It would almost be impossible to recreate identical guitars with just different woods. You can pick up two of the same guitar builds and one might be just a much better guitar and sound better than the other.
Strings make a big difference. Not sure I buy into the same guitar with different woods all sounding completely different as a mere wood thing.
Makes one wonder on the hardware and component variances as well. Sort of a thing in physics that no two things are identical. There are many other variables in the equation than just wood type, not to mention construction issues. Now you guys have me wanting to GK3 my acoustic to see how it behaves. I suspect as well the output signal and overall string vibration is very different as well. Any one ever ponder on an acoustic there is no bridge intonation adjust but an electric must be set up in the stair step pattern to be in tune? Acoustics usually have a sloped bridge saddle from closer on the high strings to back on the thicker which is close but on an electric that would be seriously out of tune.

[godinloverguy]

Hi Fusion !

Thanks for your thoughts and insights. Yes, everything makes a difference when it comes to tone. What I am finding with these GK-3's mounted on three different guitars, is that the GK-3 seems to be picking up, or sensing the vibratory characteristic of the wood that it is 3M taped to. Consider, that on my acoustic, the GK-3 is adhering to a thin layer of spruce. The strings are set in an acoustic bridge which is glued to the top of the layer of spruce, So when the string is plucked, yes, the magnetics of the GK-3 will pick up the vibrating steel string, but I sense that because the GK-3 also vibrates at the same time on top of this thin layer of spruce, that the vibration of the wood itself is also adding something to the signal. The tone from the GK-3 mounted on my acoustic SOUNDS like an acoustic, no matter how much I putz around with the EQ. But I like this discovery !! It means that the GK-3 is not bastardizing the original tonal qualities of the acoustic guitar.
The GK-3 mounted on my solid body acts completely differently. Now we are dealing with basically a heavier solid slab of wood. 9 pounds!!! Totally different vibratory pattern of the wood that the GK-3 is taped to.  A Van Halen COSM patch on my GR55 sounds like Eddie when I use the Solid body guitar, but when I use the acoustic, there is a definite acoustic tone which does not lend itself to hard rock or 80's patches.
Yes, the nut, strings, neck joint all make a small difference in tone, but I believe that the main difference in tone comes from the fact that 1) We have three completely different wood vibrating systems - one is a hollow body system, the second is a semi-hollow system, and the third is a solid body system, each with a different wood vibrating profile.

and
2) The way the string attachment system is joined to the guitar.
With an acoustic, you have a wood saddle-bridge which is glued to the thin top of spruce
With semi-acoustics and solid bodies, you have a metal stop piece and a metal bridge-saddle which are held to the solid body by metal screws. Metal has a different vibratory quality than wood, so this results in a different tone.

I am really happy that this difference exists because the COSM patches on my GR55 sound very different on my three guitars even though they are all GK-3 equipped.

LOVE THE GR-55!!!!
I just sold my GR-33 and my GR-20. Both great units, but for a hacker like myself, the GR55 is like the all-in one holy grail synth and modeling pedal for maximum fun in the basement!