GR-55 - Does it work with guitar in NST (Fripp NST Tuning CGDAEG) ?

Started by ConstruKction, June 14, 2015, 11:47:42 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

ConstruKction

Hey there.

I've been lurking this forum for a while now, and asked some questions, and it seems as though my heart has had to be broken.

Alas, I cannot buy the GR-55, as much as I'd love to get one, I've been told in my previous thread, that the synthesizer will not be able to track.
Why? Because I happen to use the Frippian CGDAEG tuning.

What can I do to fill the void? Are there any devices out there that are capable of ambient non-guitar, piano, trumpet, etc. sounds that will comply with the tuning I utilize?

Side-note: I am so confused! In my previous thread, I've been told that the synth will be useless with my tuning. Then, here, Elantric basically says that the synth WILL track, but expect anomalies with non-standard tuning. What are the anomalies we're talking about here? Complete silence, no signal received at all? Or just very glitchy sounds? As a "cherry on the cake", I found this YouTube comment, which basically says that only standard tuning will track. Although, he's talking about the pickup built into the GK-Ready Stratocaster, which might have a different pickup... I'm not sure... I'm just totally confused now.

admin

#1
You get no sound when the tuning is below the input filter threshold for the GR-55


Your Fripp tuning will work if you put a capo at 4th fret or

Play in standard tuning, but let the GR-55 DSP Alt tune to your desired Frip Tuning.



admin

#3
In a few weeks the Boss SY-300 arrives, might look at that for your Synth tones. It's supposed to have a wider tolerance for non standard tunings , even works with Bass

Mrchevy

#4
ConstruKction, it may be your just not fully understanding the ALTERNATE TUNING that the GR55 is capable of. It sounds like you want to tune the guitar itself to the FRIP tuning. This is what would likely give you the troubles of poor tracking and anomalies due to the looseness of the lower strings. the excessive swing of the loose strings may actually vibrate and hit the GK pickup. What admsustainiac is suggesting is to tune your guitar itself to A440 (standard tuning) and then set up the FRIP tuning in the GR55 with the ALTERNATE TUNING. You can change the pitch of each string in the GR55 this way. It will read the standard pitch from your guitar, then convert each string to the pitch you determine in the settings of the ALTERNATE TUNING, in your case, the FRIP tuning. You still play the guitar the same way. With the FRIP tuning set up, you will be playing an E on the low string of your guitar, but you will hear a C. I just tried this and it works fine, providing your GK pickup is set up properly.

Now, that being said, yes, you will have the issue stated in the one thread you linked to where you will not be able to use your regular guitar pickups as they will be sending the signal from the strings which are tuned to A440 but, that signal is not being converted to the FRIP tuning, only the signal from the GK pickup can be pitch converted.

With the guitar modeling that the GR55 offers, you can get a few different guitar sounds (strat, les paul, acoustic, etc) and select different modeled pickups as well. those can be run thru the alternate tuning of the GR55. So not being able to use the regular pickups of your guitar may not be much of an issue. In the most basic of explanations, you don't tune the guitar itself to the FRIP tuning, you tune the GR55 to the FRIP tuning. Does this make sense to you? I don't mean to sound belittling to you, it just sounds like you weren't getting a grasp on the way you can use the alternate tuning. Hopefully this helps you understand better if you didn't.

How appropriate for me to be playing the Devils advocate, this is my 666th post  ;D
Gibson Les Paul Custom
Epi Les Paul Standard
Gibson SG 50's prototype
Squire classic vibe 60's
Epi LP Modern
Epi SG Custom
Martin acoustic

Princeton chorus 210

GT100
GR-55
Helix LT
Waza Air Headphones
Boomerang III

And, a lot of stuff I DON'T need

ConstruKction

Yes, I have been contemplating tuning my guitar to standard tuning, and then setting up a CGDAEG patch on the GR-55...

But I don't know EADGBE that well, so it'd be a bit problematic to for example carry my GR-55 around to jam sessions or friends all the time. The setting up would be just too much of a hassle...

Don't worry, you don't sound as if you're belittling me. ^^

All I'm trying to do is to just simply find a way to have my guitar tuned to CGDAEG while still being able to use a guitar synthesizer that tracks well, just like in Fripp's case. He does not use a synth patch. He somehow managed to get his synth track the CGDAEG tuning by tuning the guitar itself.

I'm really sorry, I know you guys are all trying to help, and I'm being a bit of pain by asking all those questions... But I really cannot have my guitar tuned to EADGBE, and I have no desire to learn it.

gumtown

Have you tried the GR-55 in Bass Mode?
Not so many guitar models to choose from, but the tracking might be more stable for your tuning.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

ConstruKction

Quote from: gumtown on June 14, 2015, 04:30:45 PM
Have you tried the GR-55 in Bass Mode?
Not so many guitar models to choose from, but the tracking might be more stable for your tuning.

I have not. I do not own the unit. I'm just too scared to buy it because of this tuning.  :(

And to make things worse, I have pretty much no way of testing this.

gumtown

#8
Actually I can't see posted here if you are tuning upward from standard tuning or tuning down into the baritone range.
Tuning downward from standard E~E tuning is the issue as the lower notes get filtered off at about 3 steps down.

If you are tuning upward from E~E then I see no problem, you can always change the octave settings of your synth and modelled tones.

I have a Squier bass vi which is like a long scale 6 string guitar tuned E~E one octave lower, and that runs with the GR-55 in Bass Mode, and using a regular guitar GK-3 pickup.

EDIT: Bass mode has all the same PCM synth tones as guitar mode, the same Modelled tones of synths, but has more bass models than guitar models of the instruments.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

ConstruKction

#9
E2 lowers down by two semitones to C2
A2 lowers down by one semitone G2
D3 stays D3
G3 goes up by one semitone to A3
B3 goes up by three semitones to E4
E4 goes up by two semitones to G4

I hope I got it right.

Edit: fixed a typo.

gumtown

Now I see the dilemma.

You have two options, use the GR-55 in guitar mode and don't expect any PCM synth tones on the 2 lower strings until the 4th fret.

Use the GR-55 in Bass mode with less guitar models and expect PCM tone drop off on the two highest strings around the 18th fret.

or wait for the Boss SY-300, which won't do PCM piano, but will do analog type synth + more.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

aliensporebomb

Remember 99% of what you think is Fripp using guitar synth is highly processed electric guitar - VG-8 or 88 thru multiple Eventide processors.

I experimented with the NST quite a bit around 1996 - thinking - I can try playing around with this on VG-99 and I'm sure it would work. 
As an alternative you could tune the guitar EADGBE and set the polyphonic pitch transposer to CGDAEG.

Let me test this and get back to you.  If it works CGDAEG I'll record an example with some of my custom patches so you can hear what is happening.  This will take time.  I'm not going to have the time to re-tune/intonate tonight.  Let me work on this and I'll post back later.


My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

ConstruKction

Guys, thank you SO much for your input. I took a closer look at the Fripp video I linked previously, with the insane piano-patch solo.

It really seems as though he never goes below the 4th fret of his guitar, and on the G string, he didn't go below the 2nd fret.

Aliensporebomb, it's nice to see that more people are familiar with NST. Although I am not a Guitar Craft alumnus (born too late...  :(), I taught myself the tuning immediately after learning all the basic chords on EADGBE. Haven't really touched it ever since. Sorry, I digress. Anyway, if you'd be able to test that out, I'd be extremely grateful!

The SY-300 looks extremely promising, and the fact that I'd be able to use it with my CGDA-tuned bass, makes me want it even more! I would definitely miss the PCM capability, though.

aliensporebomb

Recording complete.  I won't be able to edit it to manageable length and upload here until tonight.  Seemed to work decently enough.  Now to bring my guitar back to EADGBE.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

mbenigni

Quoteuse the GR-55 in guitar mode and don't expect any PCM synth tones on the 2 lower strings until the 4th fret.

...where performance tends to be pretty lackluster even in standard tuning anyway.  Any time you set up a PCM-based patch you kind of need to run it through its paces and see what you can get away with - learn how to play it, in other words - regardless of the tuning.

I think you'll find that 95%+ of the functionality of the GR55 works just as well with the guitar tuned to NST as it does in standard tuning.  Which is not to say it's perfect, of course - be sure to let me know when you find any guitar synth rig that is!  :)

mbenigni

#15
QuoteAs an alternative you could tune the guitar EADGBE and set the polyphonic pitch transposer to CGDAEG.

I think this will result in more compromises than just accepting the issues with pitch-to-MIDI on very low notes.  The wide detuning (e.g. -4 steps on the 6th string, + 5 steps on the 2nd string) result in pretty terrible COSM instrument tones.  I used to spend a lot of time with alternate tunings on the Variax (and later with the GR55) trying to get one rig that could perform in both standard and NST, and the results were never acceptable IMO.  I even spent a little while with the guitar in a physical tuning that split the difference, something like:  D Ab D Ab D F.  This turned out to be a pretty cool tuning in its own right, but as far as providing NST and standard tuning on one guitar, it just resulted in both being mediocre.

Short version:  if you work exclusively in NST, that should definitely be your physical tuning.  Deviating from that will compromise your tone significantly, make patch customization more complicated, and confuse you when the volume is down.

mbenigni

QuoteI took a closer look at the Fripp video I linked previously, with the insane piano-patch solo.

I'm not seeing that link - was it in a different thread?

QuoteIt really seems as though he never goes below the 4th fret of his guitar, and on the G string, he didn't go below the 2nd fret.

If he did, it was too fast for you to see it.  ;)

QuoteAlthough I am not a Guitar Craft alumnus (born too late...  :(),

Born too late?  I find that unlikely.  It's funny I spend all my time lamenting that I was born too early (or more accurately that I've wasted so much time since then.)  Anyway, my point is that there are still many opportunities to study in the Guitar Craft tradition (though the term "Guitar Craft" may have been retired) if you're so inclined.

imerkat

Quote from: ConstruKction on June 14, 2015, 11:47:42 AM
Alas, I cannot buy the GR-55, as much as I'd love to get one, I've been told in my previous thread, that the synthesizer will not be able to track.

I've been using the Gr-55 on a baritone guitar tuned to drop A and B standard since 2011. This is news to me.


Elantric

More details on the lowest tunings the GR-55 can work with in the real world.

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3155.0

ConstruKction

Quote from: aliensporebomb on June 15, 2015, 07:47:58 AM
Recording complete.  I won't be able to edit it to manageable length and upload here until tonight.  Seemed to work decently enough.  Now to bring my guitar back to EADGBE.

Thank you so much for the effort of re-tuning and intonating your entire guitar! I'm looking forward to the recording very much!

Quote from: mbenigni on June 15, 2015, 07:49:15 AM
...where performance tends to be pretty lackluster even in standard tuning anyway.  Any time you set up a PCM-based patch you kind of need to run it through its paces and see what you can get away with - learn how to play it, in other words - regardless of the tuning.

I think you'll find that 95%+ of the functionality of the GR55 works just as well with the guitar tuned to NST as it does in standard tuning.  Which is not to say it's perfect, of course - be sure to let me know when you find any guitar synth rig that is!  :)
Quote from: imerkat on June 15, 2015, 09:17:02 AM
I've been using the Gr-55 on a baritone guitar tuned to drop A and B standard since 2011. This is news to me.

This is extremely reassuring. Thank you very much!

Quote from: mbenigni on June 15, 2015, 08:07:28 AM
I'm not seeing that link - was it in a different thread?

Right here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mntw0KD6VhQ&feature=youtu.be&t=4m47s

Quote from: mbenigni on June 15, 2015, 08:07:28 AM
If he did, it was too fast for you to see it.  ;)

A fair point.  ;) The speed is monstrous.

Quote from: mbenigni on June 15, 2015, 08:07:28 AM
Born too late?  I find that unlikely.  It's funny I spend all my time lamenting that I was born too early (or more accurately that I've wasted so much time since then.)  Anyway, my point is that there are still many opportunities to study in the Guitar Craft tradition (though the term "Guitar Craft" may have been retired) if you're so inclined.

Well, yes, definitely. There's Guitar Circles left around the world with experienced teachers and the same principle of teaching like in Guitar Craft. Maybe one day I will be able to attend one of those. There are still many things you can do on your own - observing live performances of Crafties and Robert, reading blogposts of GC alumni, et al. After so much research, you hope to have developed a technique and state of mind that's somewhat similar to a Crafty. Although, I do have to say, I have slight issues with the thirty-minutes morning sitting... I'm a bit too hyper for that, but I'm trying.  :)

Quote from: Elantric on June 15, 2015, 10:17:53 AM
More details on the lowest tunings the GR-55 can work with in the real world.

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3155.0


Huh, it seems as though most of the low-tuned gear seems to work fine with the GR-55, according to peoples' speculations here. I'm quite relieved to hear that. You guys are awesome, I'd almost given up on my music-related dream.  :)

Elantric

#20
I suggest these same issues stated below  also apply to GR-55 when used with a Low  Baritone or NST tuning
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3155.msg20430#msg20430

QuoteThis is something that the VG-99 does NOT do well: If you tune your guitar more than 3 half steps below standard tuning (C# for the low E string) then the alternate tunings and other Pitch dependent effects on the VG-99 don't sound nearly as good as they do when you use a "standard' tuned guitar. I even considered switching to a VB-99 because I enjoy playing baritone guitar.... I finally opted to just tune my Baritone down to D and leave it at that.  Though I'm hoping that the next firmware update to the VG-99 will allow me to tune my guitar lower....I seriously doubt it will because Roland (and many others) simply say "Play a normal scale guitar tuned to the normal tuning and use the VG-99's alternate tunings to lower your pitch".  This is an answer I don't want to hear because I like the feel and particular sound of my baritone guitars.  I like them loose strings ;-)

mbenigni

#21
QuoteWell, yes, definitely. There's Guitar Circles left around the world with experienced teachers and the same principle of teaching like in Guitar Craft. Maybe one day I will be able to attend one of those.

Even now, in some cases, those teachers include Robert Fripp.  Though I think he is more selective about which courses he'll attend - partly in order to avoid the distraction of students who arrive mainly in hopes of meeting a famous guitarist.  I've attended courses with and without the "Guitar Craft" moniker and - allowing that they were all unique experiences - I never felt the name or its absence made much of a difference.

QuoteThere are still many things you can do on your own - observing live performances of Crafties and Robert, reading blogposts of GC alumni, et al. After so much research, you hope to have developed a technique and state of mind that's somewhat similar to a Crafty.

1) There's no substitute for the experience of attending a course, or working within an established circle.  2) States of minds of Crafties are widely varied, in my experience.  :D

QuoteAlthough, I do have to say, I have slight issues with the thirty-minutes morning sitting... I'm a bit too hyper for that, but I'm trying.

That's pretty hard on everybody - especially in the beginning.  My own sitting practice lapsed years ago, I'm afraid.  I'm too busy sleeping at that hour.   ::)  (But do keep at it!  It's essential!  Don't be a sloth like me LOL!)

aliensporebomb

Here you go:

Jackson SL2 Pro Soloist with GK3 into VG-99 - multiple custom patches into a "soundscape" type setup ala Fripp tuned CGDAEG low to high:


Jackson SL2 Pro Soloist with GK3 into VG-99 - multiple custom patches into a "soundscape" type setup ala Fripp tuned EADGBE electronically tuned to CGDAEG:


Looping done into a Boss RC-300 loopstation. 

"No commercial potential...."


My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

ConstruKction

#23
Quote from: aliensporebomb on June 15, 2015, 04:27:32 PM
Here you go:

Jackson SL2 Pro Soloist with GK3 into VG-99 - multiple custom patches into a "soundscape" type setup ala Fripp tuned CGDAEG low to high:


Jackson SL2 Pro Soloist with GK3 into VG-99 - multiple custom patches into a "soundscape" type setup ala Fripp tuned EADGBE electronically tuned to CGDAEG:


Looping done into a Boss RC-300 loopstation. 

"No commercial potential...."


My god, this sounds amazing. I could listen to this for dayyys. I'm glad to hear it worked out in CGDAEG!

All right, so here's my definite decision:

After I get back home in two weeks, I'll order the GR-55 synth package with an external GK pickup, and the cable. I thought it'd be a better idea to test it with an external pickup before drilling in the guitar. Also, the bundle would be a better deal a separate GR-55, cable, and the GK kit.

If it'll work out well, I'll sell the external pickup, get the internal kit, and go ahead and mount it.

At least I'll be able to return it if it'll refuse to track, and get the SY-300 at the precious cost of amazing PCM synth sounds.  :)

Quote from: mbenigni on June 15, 2015, 10:44:58 AM
Even now, in some cases, those teachers include Robert Fripp.  Though I think he is more selective about which courses he'll attend - partly in order to avoid the distraction of students who arrive mainly in hopes of meeting a famous guitarist.  I've attended courses with and without the "Guitar Craft" moniker and - allowing that they were all unique experiences - I never felt the name or its absence made much of a difference.

Some of them do, indeed. I wouldn't mind attending either to be honest. With or without Robert, there'd be plenty of people far more experienced in the ways of the GC whom I could learn from.

Quote from: mbenigni on June 15, 2015, 10:44:58 AM
1) There's no substitute for the experience of attending a course, or working within an established circle.  2) States of minds of Crafties are widely varied, in my experience.  :D

Certainly, that is definitely true! Sadly, as long as I'm still a student, I won't be able to afford the course. I already had to work my butt off to be able to afford the synth, heh. And, I don't even have an Ovation yet! Or any acoustic guitar, really.

Quote from: mbenigni on June 15, 2015, 10:44:58 AM
That's pretty hard on everybody - especially in the beginning.  My own sitting practice lapsed years ago, I'm afraid.  I'm too busy sleeping at that hour.   ::)  (But do keep at it!  It's essential!  Don't be a sloth like me LOL!)

I'll do my best... Although I do feel that sooner or later I'll follow your lead. :-)

aliensporebomb

Remember that none of the sounds you heard were GR-55 or in fact synth sounds - just heavily processed sounds courtesy of the polyphonic pitch transposer in the VG-99! 

Glad you enjoyed it!
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.