FTP - Fishman Tripleplay Hardware Mode Doc...

Started by shawnb, September 28, 2013, 04:54:20 PM

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shawnb

I wrote up what I've been learning over the last few months.  I've spent a lot of time in MidiOX trying to figure out exactly how the FTP works, and what it xmits to your synthesizer.  This doc assumes you want all of the additional functionality provided by Mono Mode. 

Big lesson #1 is Pedal channel usage.
Big lesson #2 is what I call Program Change Mode.  Very helpful for playing with hardware synths.   
Big lesson #3 is that I figured out why pitch bend ranges always work just fine...   

Major caveat - I've made a lot of conclusions & assumptions...  So some of this may be wrong.  I'm always open to corrections, comments.  Feedback is welcome.  If needed, I'll correct & update this. 

Hope this helps,

Shawn

Rev Notes: 
  - Ver 2, 9/30.   Several corrections & clarifications regarding the usage of the Pedal channel.
  - Ver 3, 10/4.  Corrections to footcontroller/pedal usage, added some diagrams & an example configuration

Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

shawnb

New version of the doc attached to the original post... 
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Spider

#2
I wrote this yesterday but finally didn't publish.

From my POV:
in HW mode use only UP/Down button. ONLY.

It will change user presets. You can use Hardware Synth Plugin for hardware synthesiser settings like PC/MBS/LBS, Reverb level, Initial Vol (CC7) level etc. Of course you can use it for splits if your hardware synth support it. But I think it is simpler use hardware synthesiser settings for sound splits/layering.

First patch in User library should be set for mono and Pitch Bend (Tree menu) should be set as desired (+/- 12). For some synths we can use FTP in basic mode (still we can use User presets) and PB +/- 2 and Poly mode set to auto or trigger PB mode.

In my opinion Back/Enter button doesn't do any thing good! And as know (tried) it isn't any chances to trigger pedal sound via D-pad...

Elantric

#3
QuoteIn my opinion Back/Enter button doesn't do any thing good! .

Same here. I'm very annoyed with the current function of left/right  Back / Enter Dpad on FTP controller.
If you touch  left/right  Back / Enter Dpad accidentally during live performance it puts you into a "land of the lost as you must remember "did I accidentally press Enter one time or two times?". Couple that with tight mechanical fit on DPad buttons make for very high risk of embarrassment as its too easy to be trapped in a setup screen mode for a non existing Control panel, when I use FTP with my Ipad.

I own two FTPs. I just might remove the left right Back Enter Dpad buttons from one FTP and plug the resulting holes just to have one I could use reliably at live gigs.

I really wish FTP users could redefine the DPad buttons to more useful functions like Octave Up/ Down or MIDI CC# toggle

shawnb

Quote from: Spider on October 01, 2013, 02:53:35 AMAnd as know (tried) it isn't any chances to trigger pedal sound via D-pad... 
You are correct, & The ENTER (towards the bridge) key does not toggle Pedal mode.  I have updated the document accordingly.  (Don't know how it worked so consistently for me on one day, and not the next...)  The ENTER key definitely toggles between normal patch select mode... and... some random set of other patches. 

You can, however, make use of the pedal channel to invoke a 'poly' mode.  The steps I doc here work fine, and only use the UP and DOWN keys to do so: 
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=9035.msg69142#msg69142

Quote from: Spider on October 01, 2013, 02:53:35 AM
From my POV:  in HW mode use only UP/Down button. ONLY.
I dunno...   After booting in HW mode, pressing the BACK key (towards the neck) once gives you a very handy mode, which increments & decrements Program Changes as you navigate up & down.  If you start from a very simple patch, with no splits, it is the easiest way I've found to meaningfully test out all of the voices on a true external hardware synth. 

The BACK key consistently toggles between 3 states, (1) normal patch select, (2) this cool 'Program Change', and (3) some scary place that looks like you're navigating the Menu Tree blind... 

Quote from: Elantric on October 01, 2013, 06:01:30 AM
Same here. I'm very annoyed with the current function of left/right  Back / Enter Dpad on FTP controller.
If you touch  left/right  Back / Enter Dpad accidentally during live performance it puts you into a "land of the lost as you must remember "did I accidentally press Enter one time or two times?".

I agree completely - the fact that there is no visual feedback makes navigation very difficult and risky. 

When thinking thru your rig, you need visual feedback to somehow come from the gear you are driving, e.g., showing which patches are selected.  When jamming with friends, I use a VST host.  In the studio, I have MidiOX up all the time. 
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

shawnb

#5
Since a picture is worth 1000 words...











Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

admin

Thanks Shawn

Those pics describe the current FTP Situation very well!

shawnb

Well, a wise man from Poland on our forum here has been spoon-feeding me corrections to my doc...  The latest...

The FTP does, in fact, respond to sustain pedal and all of the doc'd pedal channel MIDI CCs when in HW mode.   Most helpful:
  -  If your current voice has NO Pedal channel defined, sending a CC#66 127 causes the FTP device to hold your chord.  Sending a CC#66 0 releases the hold. 
  -  If your current voice has Pedal channel defined, sending CC#66 127 and 0 toggle between the pedal channel definition and the normal Synth1-4. 

To use the Sustain & Pedal functions in HW mode, you send the CCs to channel 1, on the Fishman Triple Play input port!  I always wondered what that was for!

The FTP APP is NOT doing the sustain & pedal logic as I had believed, the controller itself is.  (The documentation I found refers to receiving CCs on the MIDI input channel listed in the app's preferences, which would be unavailable in HW mode...)

But experimentation proves that the FTP controller does in fact honor sustain & pedal logic when in HW mode, without the aid of the app.  I'll rev that doc again...
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Spider

#8
Exactly! During test of MIDI Host based on Arduino I try to send regular standarized MIDI messages to FTP. And I discovered that it is responsible to Sostenuto, Vol (cc7) and PC. So it looks like it coud be opearted via externall MIDI footcontroller.

shawnb

Version 3 of the doc uploaded, incorporating:
   - Foot controller learnings from above
   - Pictures above
   - An example, showing one approach to setup your FTP so that in HW mode you can switch between mono/poly and smooth/trigger
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Spider

I'm not sure that your example is correct becouse in my opinion mono/poloy is global settings. If you set it to mono in 1.patch on all patches would be mono.

shawnb

#11
Yes, but the pedal track is inherently POLY, using channel 7!   Try it!

Try a patch with Synth1 & Pedal defined.  When you initially choose the patch, you're in Pedal, which is Poly.  Send CC#66 to the FTP, and you will now be in Mono mode on channels 1-6. 

I believe the various pedal mode options in the manual on page 23 apply.  If you follow the instructions in my example, using CC#66, you can swap between POLY/CH7 and MONO/CH1-6 easily on patches #1 and #3.  I have not been successful at getting chords to Hold as doc'd though.  I'm still learning/experimenting...   

Hope this makes sense...
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Spider

It is my misunderstamding. Mono/poly is global for splits 1-4.

shawnb

#13
Yes, that is correct.   Think of the pedal channel is another channel to the right of splits 1-4 in the app....    The pedal channel is restricted to poly operation on channel 7, even when the ftp is configured as mono!    The pedal channel is intended to be played when invoked using a foot controller (a pedal).    You can think of it as split 5 or synth 5.
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

superawesomegreat

(Background to problem...)

I have one user patch.  I have it set with no splits and "hardware synth" is selected for the first track in the ftp app for this patch, the other three synth tracks are empty.  I boot into hardware mode by holding the up button while I power the FTP on, start my DAW and expect that pressing the up and down buttons will do nothing, because I only have one user patch, but

(Problem...)

this isn't the case.  I can press the up and down buttons and things change as I'm controlling a VSTi - notably an octave shift up after a few presses of the up button.  Any ideas on what is going on here?

I want nothing to happen when i press the up and down buttons because the whole process of having to hold the up button when powering on to boot into hardware mode makes me feel like I'm going to accidentally double press up and be somewhere I don't want to be without any indication of such until something goes wrong in a performance.

Nervous.

shawnb

#15
There's no such thing as an empty preset.   You are navigating to patches using the UP and DOWN controls.   

But what's in them?   If you haven't loaded a user patch in a slot, you should think of that slot as uninitialized, with **random** parameters.  After a factory reset (which is a recently added feature), the ftp appears to have PCs 0-14 for channels 1-6 in the first 15 slots (as pointed out on pg 3).   I'm not sure that is consistent or can be relied upon.

To make it somewhat safer, you can copy your preset to the first 10 user slots & load the controller.   That way, you'd have to press UP 10 times before sending unknown data to your synth.   

Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Spider

Did you load Users Patches to controller?

superawesomegreat

Quote from: Spider on October 25, 2013, 04:22:18 AM
Did you load Users Patches to controller?

I hit the "load controller" button after i select my one user patch (for editing the adavanced sensitivity settings constantly), and when I'm done I hit the "save" icon that looks like an old 2.5" disk.  I'm assuming this is the correct process for saving the state of my one user patch to my FTP controller, but perhaps I have to go to the open menu and hit load controller again - not sure.

Quote from: shawnb on October 24, 2013, 11:18:39 PM
There's no such thing as an empty preset.   You are navigating to patches using the UP and DOWN controls.   

But what's in them?   If you haven't loaded a user patch in a slot, you should think of that slot as uninitialized, with **random** parameters.  After a factory reset (which is a recently added feature), the ftp appears to have PCs 0-14 for channels 1-6 in the first 15 slots (as pointed out on pg 3).   I'm not sure that is consistent or can be relied upon.

To make it somewhat safer, you can copy your preset to the first 10 user slots & load the controller.   That way, you'd have to press UP 10 times before sending unknown data to your synth.   



Thanks for clearing that up.  When I read v3 of the HW Mode manual that you made I confused the bit about PCs with the Program change mode, and since I don't use that mode I figured it didn't apply - I don' think that was the issue, but it's good to know.  The "random" settings on the initialized patches clears things up for me, but I have to say this is a silly way of doing things - IMOi, in HW mode the up and down buttons should only cycle through user patches that one has actually created.

shawnb

#18
Yes, the FTP's tendency to leave things uninitialized until explicitly written-over makes it a little hard to predict behavior.

Sometimes you think you know EXACTLY what it does, and confirm the behavior multiple times, only to find it behaves differently a week later.  That's why I have all the caveats in my initial post... 

Strange example of unexpected behavior...   Load a patch into user position #5, set to send Program Change #13, press Load Controllers.  Power up in HW mode, navigate to user position #5, and sure enough, you will see PC#13 xmitted in MidiOX.   Cool - as expected.   

However...   Modify that same patch in user position #5, and set the Program Change to point to PC#0.  Save it, press load controllers.   Power up in HW mode, navigate to user position #5.  Using MidiOX, you'd expect to see PC#0 xmitted, right?   Nope...  PC#5 will be xmitted, because that's what's there after a factory reset, and it interprets PC#0 in the UI as 'leave unchanged'...   
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Spider

As I understand you use MIDI Ox without running FTP software. Any way I never had this kind of problems... I use mainly with Motif XF rack without computer and use user patches for PC in Motif (PC/LFB/MBF...) and it works stable and predictable. I noticed one thing: when you boot up in HW mode you are in user slot number 1. So for slot #5 you need push up button only 4 times.

tomtheguitarguy

Quote from: shawnb on October 01, 2013, 08:18:15 AM
You are correct, & The ENTER (towards the bridge) key does not toggle Pedal mode.  I have updated the document accordingly.  (Don't know how it worked so consistently for me on one day, and not the next...)  The ENTER key definitely toggles between normal patch select mode... and... some random set of other patches. 

You can, however, make use of the pedal channel to invoke a 'poly' mode.  The steps I doc here work fine, and only use the UP and DOWN keys to do so: 
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=9035.msg69142#msg69142
I dunno...   After booting in HW mode, pressing the BACK key (towards the neck) once gives you a very handy mode, which increments & decrements Program Changes as you navigate up & down.  If you start from a very simple patch, with no splits, it is the easiest way I've found to meaningfully test out all of the voices on a true external hardware synth. 

The BACK key consistently toggles between 3 states, (1) normal patch select, (2) this cool 'Program Change', and (3) some scary place that looks like you're navigating the Menu Tree blind... 

I agree completely - the fact that there is no visual feedback makes navigation very difficult and risky. 

When thinking thru your rig, you need visual feedback to somehow come from the gear you are driving, e.g., showing which patches are selected.  When jamming with friends, I use a VST host.  In the studio, I have MidiOX up all the time.

Again, sorry for the newb queston - but I thought that the ENTER key would be closer to the neck, while the BACK key is would be away from the neck (towards the bridge-but since the controller is usually mounted behind the bridge) . . .

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shredingskin

#21
The PC do behave weird right ?

In max I see that the PC outputs (always pressing up) are: 0, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 0 (?), 8, 9, 10, 0 (?), 12, 13, 14. (keeping pressing up just keeps the 14).

Any Idea why this is like like that ?

EDIT: It has to do with channel 7 being for pedal ?? (this wouldn't have to be like this, PCs are on a different stream of data isn't it ?)

EDIT2: loaded more patches with the "correct" PC changes and is working like expected :D

cruisemates

A simple question...

I have a Kenton USB hub, and I plan on buying a sound module where I can create user pre-sets and store them in numerical order.  Assuming I can do this... will I be able to power up and scroll through all the pre-sets to reach the ones I created and from that point scroll through them  individually one at a time and use them (say, on stage) in the pre-formatted order?

I know this sounds logical - but I have yet to see anyone discussing it. I am NOT very midi-capable (just a guitar-player) but I do have the FTP running with no computer and operating a General Midi Keyboard. I can scroll through all the sounds with the up/down keys on the controller.

I have not yet mastered the "save to controller" function in the FTP software (have not figured out a way to connect a hardware synth to the FTP software yet) - would that help me in the situation I am describing?

Elantric

#23
QuoteI have a Kenton USB hub

Note there are only two specific hardware units I know that can be used with the FTP USB Receiver to provide 5pin DIN MIDI I/O

1) Kenton USB Host to MIDi converter
http://www.kentonuk.com/products/items/utilities/usb-host.shtml



2) Original iConnectMIDI box 
http://www.iconnectivity.com/iConnectMIDI



Fishman TriplePlay TOP THINGS TO KNOW
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8427.msg60207#msg60207


QuoteAssuming I can do this... will I be able to power up and scroll through all the pre-sets to reach the ones I created and from that point scroll through them  individually one at a time and use them (say, on stage) in the pre-formatted order?

I actually never use FTP  "Hardware mode"  - I simply use the Up/Down button on my FTP Controller to navigate and select patches on either Softsynths running on my iPad+CCK, or hardware MIDI synths using FTP>iConnectMIDI.

Just stay away from the FTP Controller's Left / Right buttons - those take you straight to land of the lost.

Read details here:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8427.msg60216#msg60216

cruisemates

Thanks for the reply - but I "misspoke" - The Kenton unit you show is the one I have and it does work. (I guess I just assumed that if I got the name close enough you would know what I meant).

The iConnect is no longer in production from what I have heard and used ones are very hard to find. I assume you have also seen the arduino solution posted here.

For my other question, I already know how to use the FTP with a computer, I want to use it with a sound module (with no FTP software or computer running) - not a plugin or softsynth.

The PDF in the original post is helpful - but it is over my head in many ways. I am just wondering if any people here are doing what I am doing, (Kenton HOST to sound module) and have found easy approaches to making this setup work, especially for a live gig.

Thank you!