GR-55 - new report of USB serious issues.

Started by Autana, May 04, 2016, 07:37:17 AM

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Autana

Hi,

I read others topics about USB issues in GR-55 when is used as audio interface, BTW I preffer to record it via analog outputs, but when I wanted to use GR-55 as an standalone audio interface (I have my reasons, not relevant for this) the PCM section collapses amid horrendous glitches and delays, especially when playing chords, all the fretboard is affected but from the 12th fret everything goes crazy. COSM instruments working right and without problems, MIDI data coming from GR-55 being perfectly recorded in DAW, also latency going fine too.

TEST SAMPLE
For test purpose I select the GR-55 Fantasy E. Guitar patch (OTHER 31-1) which use two PCM tone and COSM electric guitar. In the first sample all is right, it is played with GR-55 connected via USB to PC but not used as audio interface.
The second sample (after beep tone) is played with GR-55 engaged audio interface in Cubase (ASIO) (the same with Reaper, Band-in-a-Box, Chainer, Studio One etc).  Chords frozen and sound totally weird and delayed in separate single notes, as if the internal bus/PCM audio data in the GR-55 has been seriously affected by the USB connection, NOTE the COSM is NOT affected! just PCM tones. In DAW all is fine about latency and MIDI with GR-55.

AUDIO SAMPLE: GR-55 USB problem

The PCM problem appears ONLY when GR-55 is used as audio interface and only with internal PCM blocks, internal COSM tones and everything in DAW (until now) is right!. Everything run fine again with PCM when the driver is switched off in DAW or from any audio app using it as audio interface (ASIO) even if the  USB cable still connected and GR-55 being recognized by windows.
With GR-55 MIDI driver only and analog outputs connected to an external audio interface all is perfect (usually is my way to record GR-55 and all of my USB gear, just as normal keyboards or MIDI modules, NOT USB for audio) Floorboard for example run fine without causing any issue since it only use MIDI communication. 
I tweak on everything in GR-55, factory reset included, and I also try by leaving totally free PC resources with a fresh OS, updated drivers, etc, and Gr-55 as the only device connected to USB bus and background services at minimum, but nothing change, problem is the same in 3 tested multi core (4 nucleus) computers with a minimal of 2.8 to 3.6 Ghz and more than enough RAM.

I doubt if my GR-55 is candidate for repair or service support or if I am facing an GR-55 design flaw.


GR-55, GP-10, GI-20, Godin xtSA, GodinNylon MultiAc, Giannini classical, 3 GK-3'd gtrs, Cube 80XL, Primova GKFX-21 (x2)

Fear just pulls you out of being true to music, which is coming from a place of love. Love is the opposite of fear. I stay away from anything fear-related.
- Tal Wilkenfeld -

Elantric

#1
Quoteor if I am facing an GR-55 design flaw.

It boils down the work load of the GR-55's CPU when presented with too many tasks, We do know that GR55 onboard Controls become sluggish anytime the GR-55 is connected to a computer via USB. The GR-55 is based on same generation hardware as a the 2010 Roland SD-50 Mobile Canvas.
http://cdn.roland.com/assets/media/pdf/SD-50_OM.pdf
And we know the GR-55 CPU is not as fast as the newer generation CPU used in the Boss GP-10.

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=10092.msg72668#msg72668

Its been also observed that all GR-55 User controls/ pedals / switches respond slowly anytime the GR-55 is connected via USB as audio interface to your PC/Mac and you are playing back music. This is because the GR-55 CPU becomes a bit too overwhelmed processing the external USB Streaming Audio / MIDI data on the USB cable.

We have many prior GR-55  threads which mention this observable "control slowdown / sluggish response" anytime the GR-55 is connected via USB and streaming live audio from a PC/Mac

GR-55 response slows down with USB connected to MAC
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=7667.0


(More GR-55 Controls Slowdown details here:)
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=7411.msg51742#msg51742


I offer that the "guts" of the GR-55 were lifted from the Roland SD-50 Sound Canvas, (same CPU,, same DSP) - but re-Allocated to perform Guitar to PCM Synth   / Guitar to MIDI  / COSM Modeling Guitar.

It may very well turn out the reason Roland omitted an External Expression Pedal Jack (to support a 2nd Expression Pedal) is because the GR-55's CPU can not handle any more real time controls than already exist  - and the GR-55's operating system "slowdowns" are exposed when the GR-55 acts as a USB Audio Interface for music playback from a USB connected PC/Mac     

Autana

#2
Quote from: Elantric on May 04, 2016, 08:13:37 AM
The GR-55 is based on same generation hardware as a the Roland SD-50 Mobile Canvas. Its CPU is not as fast as the newer generation CPU in the Boss GP-10.
  [/i]

Thanks for detailed reply, as always I've noticed I missed even more for reading about this and others topic, not laziness, it's immensity of information (which is great) :). I will read it immediately.
I agree totally about the efficiency of the GR-55's CPU when facing with too many tasks. When was wording my question, for shorts I decided not include an phrase already at the end  "it seems as the  power or CPU resources fail when communication with the PC is established as audio interface."  And I don't know if anyone has noticed something similar, but in my GR-55 the LEDs on Sound Style, whichever is used, blinking at times as indicating an extreme load on the CPU bandwidth resources when is used as sound card while playing patches which include PCM blocks.
Even I came to think that could be a bad supply of energy due to greater internal power consumption requirement, but besides of power supply included with GR-55 can hold until 2000 mA, it have more logical that weakness CPU is the cause.


Quote from: Elantric on May 04, 2016, 08:13:37 AM
It may very well turn out the reason Roland omitted an External Expression Pedal Jack (to support a 2nd Expression Pedal) is because the GR-55's CPU can not handle any more real time controls than already exist  - and the GR-55's operating system "slowdowns" are exposed when the GR-55 acts as a USB Audio Interface for music playback from a USB connected PC/Mac     [/i]

From this could we assume that maybe also from there part the Roland decision of to block GR-55 PCM section access from external MIDI control, rather than seeking increase sales of its MIDI modules ?  just mulling around.

GR-55, GP-10, GI-20, Godin xtSA, GodinNylon MultiAc, Giannini classical, 3 GK-3'd gtrs, Cube 80XL, Primova GKFX-21 (x2)

Fear just pulls you out of being true to music, which is coming from a place of love. Love is the opposite of fear. I stay away from anything fear-related.
- Tal Wilkenfeld -

Elantric

#3
QuoteI agree totally about the efficiency of the GR-55's CPU when facing with too many tasks. When was wording my question, for shorts I decided not include an phrase already at the end  "it seems as the  power or CPU resources fail when communication with the PC is established as audio interface."  And I don't know if anyone has noticed something similar, but in my GR-55 the LEDs on Sound Style, whichever is used, blinking at times as indicating an extreme load on the CPU bandwidth resources when is used as sound card while playing patches which include PCM blocks.

You are not alone - all GR-55's react in similar manner


QuoteFrom this could we assume that maybe also from there part the Roland decision of to block GR-55 PCM section access from external MIDI control, rather than seeking increase sales of its MIDI modules ?  just mulling around.

Indeed -

FWIW -the old GR-33's CPU  runs faster and can handle many tasks without slowdown,  - but that's because the GR-33 has a much reduced function / feature set (No COSM Guitar Modeling / No COSM Amp Modeling / No USB Audio Interface)  compared to the "swiss army knife" GR-55.
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=14682.msg128764#msg128764 
QuoteRecently I was debugging MIDI gear with a GR-33 as MIDI Tone Module, and we discovered the GR-33's internal Sound engine can accept simultaneous signal input from either the GK 13 pin input jack or the 5 pin MIDI Input jack at the same time.

bryanz

One thing I tried on piano--I think it helps a little--is doubling the pcm, and setting one with attack time +6, and the other decay -14, sustain -50 and release -50.  Basically separating the attack and the sustain into 2 voices--so when the attach glitches, it passes by relatively harmlessly.  The theory seems good--again, not sure how great it is in reality, but it seems to help some.

compusic

Sorry for bumping up this thread, since I encountered the same problem.

But what I can't understand is that, when I play chords at lower postitions, such as at 0,1st, 2nd or 3rd fret, the PCM patches do not have problem. only when playing chords above the 8th or 9th fret, the problem will start to occur, and the higher along the fingerboard the worse the problem becomes.

If say GR-55 does not have enough CPU power to process all those datas, why at lower positions there's no such problem?

Any clues?  Thanks in advance.


Harry1227

I experienced these problems when my GK3 was set too close to the strings.  After all, the closer to the 22nd fret you clamp the string, the closer it is to the pickup. When the string is too close to the pickup, the GK3 preamp circuit is overloaded. Try to increase the distance from the pickup to the strings and, if necessary, increase the sensitivity in  GK3 settings.
I try not to use USB when playing PCM instruments. These friezes are a typical problem of all GR-55s.

compusic

Quote from: Harry1227 on February 14, 2022, 07:25:23 AM
I experienced these problems when my GK3 was set too close to the strings.  After all, the closer to the 22nd fret you clamp the string, the closer it is to the pickup. When the string is too close to the pickup, the GK3 preamp circuit is overloaded. Try to increase the distance from the pickup to the strings and, if necessary, increase the sensitivity in  GK3 settings.
I try not to use USB when playing PCM instruments. These friezes are a typical problem of all GR-55s.

Thanks for advice.  But the problem only accurs when playing chords. If  I play only one note at a time, even holding previously played notes, just like playing appegiated chords, the problem won't occur. So it maybe have nothing to do with the distance between GK3 and the strings.

Harry1227

If your GK3 is perfectly positioned, then it can be assumed that the problem may be caused by the peculiarities of the sound of your guitar -
1. Resonances
2. Guitar tuning - fretboard bending, fret alignment, scale length, etc.

If you want, you can record a raw guitar signal in Tuner or GK Gain mode. Play arpeggios and then chords in problem areas. The same can be played in the area up to the 5th fret. I will listen to the wav file. And, perhaps, I can determine the cause of the failures.

compusic

Quote from: Harry1227 on February 14, 2022, 08:20:47 PM
If your GK3 is perfectly positioned, then it can be assumed that the problem may be caused by the peculiarities of the sound of your guitar -
1. Resonances
2. Guitar tuning - fretboard bending, fret alignment, scale length, etc.

If you want, you can record a raw guitar signal in Tuner or GK Gain mode. Play arpeggios and then chords in problem areas. The same can be played in the area up to the 5th fret. I will listen to the wav file. And, perhaps, I can determine the cause of the failures.

Thanks  for your kindness. Maybe I forgot to mention a precondition, the problem occurs only when my GR-55 is connected to a computer and its audio driver is accessed by other softwares. That means when GR-55 works alone, there's no problem.

admin

Quote from: compusic on February 18, 2022, 12:10:45 AM
Thanks  for your kindness. Maybe I forgot to mention a precondition, the problem occurs only when my GR-55 is connected to a computer and its audio driver is accessed by other softwares. That means when GR-55 works alone, there's no problem.

You describe the separate "Guitar to MIDI" application of GR-55 -which is lackluster compared to triggering its internal PCM Synth , or the faster VGuitar COSM DSP Modeling

Harry1227

#11
Quote from: compusic on February 18, 2022, 12:10:45 AM
Thanks  for your kindness. Maybe I forgot to mention a precondition, the problem occurs only when my GR-55 is connected to a computer and its audio driver is accessed by other softwares. That means when GR-55 works alone, there's no problem.
It means that the problems you describe arise from the conflict between two realtime processes for resources. It is necessary to choose between ASIO by USB and fast response of PCM instruments.
My GR55 also becomes a brake when I plug it in as an ASIO audio interface.
PS
When I needed to record a part performed on the PCM GR55, I used VST ZENOLOGY with same sound and GR-33 for guitar2midi.