RC300 Frippertronics - first order approximation

Started by shawnb, August 21, 2012, 09:37:33 PM

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tekrytor

Artists and business are diametrically opposed forces. Artists create and business typically resells creations of others, using people up along the way with often little or no regard for individual rights, and with profit as the primary motive. Welcome to the 99%...a.k.a. the machine. I once saw David Bowie perform with a featured guitar player named "Dusty Rhodes", looked and sounded a lot like Robert Fripp to me. If the man wants to play, he'll play. Unfortunately, he may have trouble getting paid for his catalog of  previous work while the attorneys and other suits enjoy the benefits of his absence. There are always alternate solutions and those who would contribute will continue to do so as long as they can determine the best ways to do so. The crafty one will prevail, IMO.
SY-300/BeatBuddy/VoiceLive 3/GR-55(v1.50)/33/1/50/700/VGA-7/V-Bass, Yam-G10, GPK-4, DIY X-Bee HighlyLiquidCPU "Cozy-Lil-Footie", FCB-1010, other MIDI stuff, Godin Freeway SA and various other GK equipped controllers, Sonar X1, Audacity, KXstudio, Misc devices

aliensporebomb

Fripp also used the Dusty Rhodes persona to play for Peter Gabriel tours from behind the curtain.  It was Robert.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

aliensporebomb

One additional question for shawn - could this concievably be set up as a patch on one or several memories of the unit and then remove the cable and have all the others be normal? 

I just got this thing and won't have a chance to break it out of the box and try it out for another couple of hours.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Cricket

As far as I know, you can do that but you have remember to change from replace to overdub.  I think I tried that and it worked w/out stopping the unit.   Don't hold me to that.

aliensporebomb

Wow.  You're not kidding - it works!.  I unboxed my unit and did a 12 minutes piece with the normal configuration.  Then I set up the special cable and set it up as instructed.  30 minutes later I had a multipart ambient piece on my hands.  I have NO idea what I'm doing with this thing (other than the basics) but I'm sure having fun.   Thanks for discovering the "Fripp in a Box" cable mode!
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

shawnb

Asb -
Yes, I have a # of "normal" patches (e.g., some backing tracks for songs, & some different types of loop improv templates) and a # of Fripprtronics patches, using different fx. 
It's REALLY important to remove the cable for non-Frippertronics pieces. 
Shawn
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

jonnyj

I read this post this time last year when I first got the Boss RC-300. I tried it and worked really well. At the time I wasn't really working with Frippertronic/Soundscape styles much. I also no longer own the RC-300. Now I wish I still did in some regards because I am working with looping in that way. I have plenty of looping gear and software and have tried making this same setup or approximation however without assignable inputs I don't think I can come up with a way to do it quite like it?
So now I am considering getting one again eventually. I can't afford one at the moment but then...

Anyhow thank for these great ideas everyone (Y)
"You are what you is"

aliensporebomb

#32
Just wanted to post that I created a video based on shawnb's excellent technique - it really works - I put the video up primarily because of the fact that the system was down for a day earlier this week and I didn't want this technique to go away if vguitarforums did:

Part 1:


Part 2:
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Syph

Well I finally built my first patch for frippertronics wanted to share a few settings that may be of interest.

Routing audio from Sub Ouput L to Mic in
Sub output Lvl: 2
Mic gain: 12 o'clock

Drums: off
Loop sync: off
Tempo sync :off
single track play mode: off
loops 1-3 output: sub
input out: main
Overdub/replace: replace
Recording mode: Mono


Assignments:

1) Source: Track 1 rec/dub
    Target:  Track 1 Out: Sub
2) Source: Track 2 rec/dub
    Target:  Track 2 Out: Sub
3) Source: Track 3 rec/dub
    Target:  Track 3 Out: Sub
4) Source: Track 1 play
    Target:  Track 1 Out: Main
5) Source: Track 2 play
    Target:  Track 2 Out: Main
6) Source: Track 3 play
    Target:  Track 3 Out: Main

Essentially when overdubbing the the loop will do the classic loop ageing, or loop decay, or frippertronics. However when playing, each loop will play back normally, so as to allow loop ageing to occur on the other loops.

You can of course mess around with track sync settings and drum machine settings to get synced loops and drums etc, I just thought "free" sync better suited the cliché...

I have set up the other accessible loops to not use the sub outputs, so there is no risk of feedback on other patches. There is of course the possibility of over driving a loop from setting the Mic in level too high, but by having the sub out level set to 2 I can keep the Mic in lvl at 12 o'clock and it works fine.

Going to properly test this tonight, will report back.

Syph

Things to add!

You have to turn each loop from overdub to play before hitting record on another loop. Otherwise the first loop will continue to play out the sub output and will get recorded into the new loop. There may have been a glitch in the behaviour last night, but it was probably just me hitting record on a loop while another loop was overdubbing still.

With the sub output level set to 2 I can tweak the loop ageing with the mic gain, between 10 and 12 o'clock seems to be a good range of fade times. I had set this up initially with stereo out of the sub into the aux in with a pair of TS to RCA adapters on the end of an RCA to 1/8" cable, but the ageing wasn't working properly. The frequency response wasn't flat, and so everything was falling away except for around 1-3khz (ish) which was actually growing whilst everything else faded. I figure there was a good chance my cable was old and a bit dodge, but it's unconfirmed at this point. My fix was swapping to an TRS to XLR going from the sub out to the mic in fixed that. The 2 other thoughts are; maybe the aux in has a less linear response than the mic in OR perhaps it was an issue with stereo and mono behaviours through the rig.

Also, my first thought was to set all the loops to FREE sync, or no sync, but after a night performing with it I am starting to think maybe syncing 2 loops and then having a free floating loop on top of that. Anyway, point is I would be curious to hear y'all's thoughts on loop sync and frippertronics/soundscapes.

Rolandmangrove

Yesterday I set up the loop aging system. It works perfectly. I am using stereo mode because I put a short stereo delay on my guitar sound. I have set the assignments as posted before. When I record track 1 the output goes to sub as intended. Overdub output stays on sub. Changing to play changes the output to main so if I record track 2 the sound from track 1 is not recorded. So far so good. If I change track 2 to play the output changes to main. If I put track 1 (containing audio) from play to record/overdub than the output stays at main and does not change to sub so the audio get's overwritten. I think I do something wrong while setting the assignments. What settings do I need to make as minimum and maximum? For track play I set both to main and for REC/overdub to sub. I tried alternative settings with no result. Can someone give me advice?

I am also experimenting with a stereo memory man EHX to get a more vintage aging. I am also going to try to put a tube preamp beween the sub out and aux in to slightly overdrive the signal and I hope to simulate tape distortion. I let you know what the results are.

I have the rc 300 one week now and I find it a very inspiring instrument. The possibilities are almost limitless and thank you all for the creative input you give me posting on this forum.

Rolandmangrove

I tried to get the tape distortion effect by putting 2 ART MIC  tube amps in the sub out - aux in loop. I tried different presets and found one that I find very convincing after a lot of tweaking the in/out volume. The distortion is really subtile and when the sound is fading you hear the "tape" distortion slowly coming in. It reminds me of the sound that I got 35 years ago with 2 tape recorders :)

chrish

#37
Man, great thread, lots of stuff to explore here. After watching and hearing the 'asb' video demo, i'm looking at buying a rc-300 (i have the rc-20  which seems like a minute of memory and of course i purchased it right before the extended memory model came out). I played around with the sy300 and stacked another delay on the preset cave patch, and got a simular result, but still hear the beating of the delay. I ran my guitar into a digitec voice harmonizer and then into the sy300. Spacey but not as clean as rc300 setup. After  playing a few harmonics, i started just drumming on guitar body to the tempo of the delay. Sometimes, a string would hit a fret for an added effect. Good fun. I would add 'starless and bible black' to the king crimson album list of greats. At least i think that was the title. There was one tune with a bass and violin solo that we used to jam on. The other guitar player used slight distortion and a  wha pedal to play the violin part. 

chrish

#38
So i just read a bunch of material on the tape loop system that Fripp used. I also ran across a reference for a delay pedal with 20 seconds of delay that has a setting to simulate these types of tape loop. (The name escapes me, but i'll look it up.) It seems in this type of a pedal,  a mechanical feedback loop would not be an issue because the pedal is designed for tape loop sims. My question is, now that you'll have had time to play the shawnb rc-300 setup, are you able to keep the system stable as far as ear damaging feedback is concerned? I noted that the op said to watch the levels, but can you dial in this setup? Thanks. Edit to add, the pedal is called 'El Capistan' tape loop delay. Has anyone here used this pedal?

shawnb

I've read about El Cap, some folks say it's perfect, just hard to use.   

I've heard Line6's DL4 does Frippertronics also. 

I haven't used either, but just recalling this info from other threads. 

I haven't had the feedback problem.  Just don't leave the cable connected when not doing Frippertronics.   I'm worried more about speakers/amps than the RC-300, it's just digital math to the looper...
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

aliensporebomb

#40
Ear damaging feedback?  Remember what my video presentation says: keep all input levels within the first fourth of its travel.  It's easy to keep things under control if you keep them there.   Also remember my video was done with everything at line level insofar as the input levels are concerned.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

chrish

#41
Thanks guys. I said 'ear damaging feedback' because when i was a kid in the early 70's i used a univox (i think) tape echo box that had these cassettes, kind of like a mini 8 track tape, that plugged into the back of the unit and i used to push the tape feedback until it sounded like those 'outerlimits'  flying saucer sounds. Our band was playing Hendrix (our lead player and childhood friend could rip) and some fussion stuff. The few gigs we played were loud. The feedback was louder and probably started the damage to my ears. I'm very cautious about feedback these days because loud, high frequencies are pearcing and sets my ears a ringing. It's good to hear that this rc-300 setup can be easily controlled. And that's a good tip about making sure that the cord is pulled for normal operation. Time to give this pedal a try. Mostly i've used my rc-20 looper for learning songs. I tried some feedback loop setups today with it and that's all i got, feedback that had to be quickly quelled.

chrish

Ordered the last rc300 at alto music. Had me wondering how many of these pedals were sold because of the 'asb' video demo of shawnb's set up. Anyway, since i ordered this pedal, my guess is that the boss will have a new one out soon. :-). Maybe a rc300 with five tracks and 24 bit resolution.

Elantric

#43
the RC-300 remains fully in production for the foreseeable future.
QuoteMaybe a rc300 with five tracks and 24 bit resolution.
They released the tabletop RC-505, but that does not replace the RC-300
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8276.0



chrish

Yea, i read the thread here on the rc-505 and the deciding factor was the steel construction of the rc-300 and the ability to route the subouts for the shawnb setup. Both units are 16 bit. I also checked out the new boss delay pedal specs. It's 24 bits and so is the sy300, so it appears that will be the way roland is heading.

chrish

Quote from: aliensporebomb on November 23, 2014, 07:24:38 PM
Just wanted to post that I created a video based on shawnb's excellent technique - it really works - I put the video up primarily because of the fact that the system was down for a day earlier this week and I didn't want this technique to go away if vguitarforums did:

! No longer available


I just checked out this video again and I see that there is nothing plugged into the mainouts. How are you geting the sound out of the rc300 and into your amp? I see that the subouts have the cable that goes back into the aux and I see the input, and some midi cables input and out. Thanks

shawnb

The connections are outlined in the first post, above.

Yes, your main outs go to the amp.   In the first few seconds of the video, you see that the main outs are connected.
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

chrish

#47
Quote from: shawnb on October 26, 2015, 06:07:51 PM
The connections are outlined in the first post, above.

Yes, your main outs go to the amp.   In the first few seconds of the video, you see that the main outs are connected.
Ok, I get it, the button push setup demo is a different setup then when the scoundscape was demo-ed and everything was setup for sound. I thought there was a connection out of sight off the subout cable, before it goes into the aux out. Main outs to amp. Check. I'm going home to tryout this set up.

The video was helpful. Now I'm finally getting that the time that the loops run before fadeout is dependent upon the number of regenerations (fade out setting in memory). 

chrish

Setup complete and working. Wow. How did you ever figure out that the rc unit could do that? Thanks.

chrish

#49
The rc-300 unit does not allow internal fx to be applied to the sub outs, but fx can be applied to the main outs, so i reconfigured the shawnb set up. I just switched it so the main outs feed the aux in and the sub outs go to the amp and  made the corresponding memory changes for the cable routeing changes. So now i can apply the rc300 fx to the main outs to be fed back into the track phrase overdub (of course both set ups would allow a hardware fx unit to be placed in the return loop). What i'm after is trying to add a signal degradation, simular to tape, as the signal gets fed back into the track phrase overdub that can be added or not by turning the fx on or off. I tried the lo-fi effect and that degrades the low and leaves the high. Tape does the opposite, it degrades to that warm fuzzy low end. I'm looking at trying the low pass filter fx or maybe placing the sy300 into the loop and use the sy fx, which seem to be bit better. AnyOne here have any tape simm fx ideas, short of just buying an el capistan which has all the tape simms covered? Not into software solutions.