sustainer pickups

Started by cell7, July 23, 2012, 11:22:38 AM

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cell7

Quote from: vanceg on September 04, 2012, 01:16:38 PM
I haven't received mine yet.  He's looking into what happened on shipping. I have great faith it will arrive and Ted has been very helpful in trying to track it down.  When it arrives - I will try to install it soon but I can't be sure when I'll have the time...and a guitar I want to pop it into.

Ah that sucks... mine certainly arrived (actually quite quickly) although im in Amsterdam so its not all that far from Bulgaria. The packaging was 'interesting' and could have been confusing for the postage service.

Hopkins

Thanks for the updates.  I look forward to hearing back.

vanceg

OK - I DID receive my sustainer - I don't think there was any problem at all other than slow standard mail.

I have not installed it yet but I'm really excited to do so: The amp circuit is really, really small - which is super great for installing in existing guitars.

The electronics do look a bit hand-done... because they are.  The soldering looks good...but I should buy Ted some quality electrical tape and shrink tube ;-)  Seriously - It's all just fine...!

What REALLY is exciting me, though, is that he has two other models of sustainer available now and BOTH of these new models allow you to keep your neck pickup in place, rather than replacing it with the Sustainer driver.  One of the two models is REALLY REALLY small and the sustainer can actually sit just below the strings  of the guitar... I HAVE to try one of these out.

Check out:  http://sustainer.run-bg.com/bg/index.pl  or http://sustainer.run-bg.com/bg/index.pl?_state=Product&id=3261

Francis 7

This is fascinating... those compact and ultra-thin models are ingenious. I'd like to get one, but the guitar I want it for has a Lollar P-90 in the bridge position, so I'm not sure if that would work well or not. Hmmm...

Hopkins

Yes, I would like to hear a demo of one of the thin models.  It makes me wonder why no-one has done it before!  Perhaps it is the same reason as always in the guitar world: anything remotely different from "the norm" (i.e. Gibson and Fender classics) is ignored by the vast majority of players and is, therefore, difficult to bring to market.

Elantric

#30
QuoteIt makes me wonder why no-one has done it before!

Its more likely due to existing patents. The small guys in east europe can sell these for a while, but if they get too big. look out for a legal battle with those who currently own Sustainer patents 

Hopkins

Ah, good point, although I thought that they had been around for decades.  Strangely, I have been unable to discover when Fernandes first patented it in the US - does anyone have any idea?

Elantric

#32
How To Make A Guitar Sustainer System, Tutorial
http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=16984


QuoteAh, good point, although I thought that they had been around for decades.  Strangely, I have been unable to discover when Fernandes first patented it in the US - does anyone have any idea?



Bob Hoovers Manaic Music Sustainaic US Patent #4941388 is from July, 1990
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4941388.pdf

Sustainaic US Patent #6034316  is from 2000
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6034316.pdf


Fernandes Sustainer US patent #  5,585,588 dates from 1996
http://www.google.com/patents?id=XhYgAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false





(all are attached)

Hopkins

Ah, thanks, good find.  And am I right in thinking that these would last for 15 years?  (I.e., they have expired?)

Elantric


Hopkins

Crikey, just in case 15 years isn't enough to get a head start :P

vanceg

Yeah - I think I'm going to do a test on this sustainer, and then try out one of his smaller units.

Francis 7

Please let us know, I'm really thinking about getting one myself... :)

cell7

OK i did a frankenstein install of the sustainer on my guitarasaurus - its ugly as hell but it seems to work... I just got it in without really testing it so tonight i will give it a proper play.

Hopkins

Cool - I hope it is as good as hoped!

cell7

OK - tweaked and played with it for an hour or so. Here are my first impressions, with a disclaimer that I have no experience with the other commercial sustainer brands like fernandes and sustainiac. Also due to the fact these are very obviously handmade, each one could be different! Anyway - here goes:

Straight up, this thing works a treat! It was quite easy to install [at least in the rough external way that i did it], and it worked immediately but produced a bunch of weird squeals and buzzes until adjusted. It needs to be as close to the string as possible and driven by a pretty chunky humbucker, and once this is in place it really can make the strings 'sing'. My 009 High E string doesnt work as well as the other 5, but this is normal apparently. On high sensitivity settings [for the sustainer] through the magnetic pickup it can make a kind of overdriven sound instead of a pure clean sustain, however through the gk pickup the sustain is of course perfectly clean and really quite consistent. The 8ve+5th harmonic mode also works extremely well. There is a slight delay when the sustainer is switched on, and perhaps a small sound [but nothing massive and it is not noticeable via gk or when using anything other than a clean sound]. The regular single coil in my option also sounds perfectly ok [although surprisingly bright], so this is a bonus. Some additional insulation and shielding is recommended, as the extra wiring and circuitry can be quit noisy. I stuck mine in an altoids tin as suggested by Elantric, and this actually cleaned up the signal quite a bit. It could certainly fit in something small though, so i will look for a better tin before i make this permanent.

Now, not being an expert on the fernandes sustainer - it seems as though it requires the entire audio to go through the active circuitry in order to work properly..? If that is the case, then Ted's handmade Bulgarian specials are the superior design, as the entire guitar will still work even when the sustainer batteries are dead or removed. Quite important i think. Not sure yet how long the batteries will last....

As said before, this thing is really ugly. If i could fit a cover on it i would, but u need the driver as close to the strings as possible. Ill look for some other way to improve the aesthetics.

Any questions just ask! Ill be playing around with it more tonight, and hopefully take some pics.

Hopkins

Interesting!  I look forward to the pics.

Elantric

#42
Quoteit seems as though it requires the entire audio to go through the active circuitry in order to work properly..?

The other Sustainers simply require the output of the Normal Bridge PU to be fed into the input on the sustainer board.

Same as Fernandes.
(Background story)

When the Roland VG-8 was initially released, at 1995 NAMM show, they had several Strats with only one pickup - the GK-2A hex PU.

Alan Hoover of Maniac Music believed this was the only method a VG-8 could be used, and for quite a while his stance was the Sustainiac System could not be used with Roland systems - since he believed a normal bridge PU would be absent.

In the late 1990's - the dominant belief was Sustainers would be incompatible with Roland 13 pin gear. Many installers refused to do the work, as they had many failed attempts. Mostly because a good Luthier typically has only basic electronics skills. 

in 1998, I was among the first to successfully install a Maniac Music Sustainiac Stealth PU in a Guitar with Roland GK Internal hex PU - and even helped Alan Hoover understand how to do it.   


Everything is explained in this pic
   

If you approach the Sustianer / Sustainaic install as a two part process you should be good.

Step #1 - install the complete Sustianer / Sustainaic installation and fully test / debug / test / approve.

Step #2 - install the Roland GK-Kit-Internal - Graphtech Ghost or RMC Polydrive using each systems supplied installation instructions.


MCK

Fast forward 10 years now even a layman like me with rudimentary tools can do it! Thanks to all the knowledge and experience shared by Elantric.


vanceg

Yep - I don't even actually USE my standard magnetic pickups on my instruments for anything OTHER than driving the Sustain pickup system!  I have a bridge pickup installed exclusively to drive the Sustainer and a GK-3 does all the actual guitar signal pickup which is then processed through the VG-99.

The Sustainiac and Fernandez sustainers work well this way.  The Moog guitar has a very hard time with this approach - it seems that the electronics in the Moog pickups are pumping out too much interference to work well with the GK-3.  Besides - on the Moog guitar - the bridge pickup is also a sustainer - so we are getting the magnetic field that the bridge sustainer is putting out interfering with the GK pickup.

But with a GK-3 and a Sustainiac or Fernandes, this works really well.   My two cents are that the Fernandes sustainer is MUCH easier to install and configure and you have to think MUCH less about being really careful with your wiring path than you do with the Sustainiac...but the Sustainiac is a smaller circuit board to need to install...and that's nice.





Quote from: Elantric on November 06, 2012, 08:05:26 AM
The other Sustainers simply require the output of the Normal Bridge PU to be fed into the input on the sustainer board.

Same as Fernandes.
(Background story)

When the Roland VG-8 was initially released, at 1995 NAMM show, they had several Strats with only one pickup - the GK-2A hex PU.

Alan Hoover of Maniac Music believed this was the only method a VG-8 could be used, and for quite a while his stance was the Sustainiac System could not be used with Roland systems - since he believed a normal bridge PU would be absent.

In the late 1990's - the dominant belief was Sustainers would be incompatible with Roland 13 pin gear. Many installers refused to do the work, as they had many failed attempts. Mostly because a good Luthier typically has only basic electronics skills. 

in 1998, I was among the first to successfully install a Maniac Music Sustainiac Stealth PU in a Guitar with Roland GK Internal hex PU - and even helped Alan Hoover understand how to do it.   


Everything is explained in this pic


Hopkins

Quote from: MCK on November 06, 2012, 01:09:41 PM
Fast forward 10 years now even a layman like me with rudimentary tools can do it! Thanks to all the knowledge and experience shared by Elantric.



Your extra pickups look really neatly installed!

tekrytor

#46
@cell7:
My QueenDom for pix! Love to see your Guitarasaurrus with its new sustainer pup!
Cheers!
SY-300/BeatBuddy/VoiceLive 3/GR-55(v1.50)/33/1/50/700/VGA-7/V-Bass, Yam-G10, GPK-4, DIY X-Bee HighlyLiquidCPU "Cozy-Lil-Footie", FCB-1010, other MIDI stuff, Godin Freeway SA and various other GK equipped controllers, Sonar X1, Audacity, KXstudio, Misc devices

MCK

Quote from: Hopkins on November 06, 2012, 05:12:18 PM
Your extra pickups look really neatly installed!

Nothing extra in fact. It was a Roland Ready Strat so all I did was some retrofitting work + some cavity enlargement! Worked out real well. IMHO, used RR Strats offer terrific value

cell7

Quote from: Elantric on November 06, 2012, 08:05:26 AM
The other Sustainers simply require the output of the Normal Bridge PU to be fed into the input on the sustainer board.

Same as Fernandes.

OK so the Ted-special sustainer is the same then. For some reason i have read in a few places that the fernandes system means the entire guitar craps out when the battery dies, [whereas the one i am using only needs the battery for the sustainer driver] but im sure this cant be the case.

Quote from: tekrytor on November 06, 2012, 10:12:31 PM
@cell7:
My QueenDom for pix! Love to see your Guitarasaurrus with its new sustainer pup!
Cheers!
Anyways... i managed to shoehorn the circuit board, the 2 switches and the intensity pot into a tiny 'Smint' tin. Its not pretty but it works! Currently the battery is taped onto the back of this, and it sits behind the bolts that attach the silicon bass to the steinberger.  I have some pretty crappy iphone pics of the work in progress:

cell7

I will probably clean it up a bit especially around the pickup [route a channel for the cable etc] and try to find some sort of cover to hide its general ugliness.... It is so frankenstein at the moment!