SY-300 - Why so quiet ?

Started by Brak(E)man, December 11, 2016, 08:48:23 AM

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JiveTurkey

I feel like the crazy old man in the room with the SY  :P ;D I think I have just adopted it and made it my rig. Whether anyone else wants to get on board with it is their problem  ;D

You can't get realistic instrument sounds out of it; but with contributions from @rolandvg99 here and Yutaka Nakano off Tone Central; I can get my guitar to sound approximately like a trumpet, strings, flute, organ, brass section and a g*dd*mned set of scratching turntables  :o I continue to be impressed by it.

I would LOVE if they keep at it with this tech and either do some more fw updating on the device or integrate it into the mythical unicorn level flagship in the next year or two. First day buyer right here  :-*

pasha811

Quote from: tbeltrans on December 11, 2016, 04:28:13 PM
Interesting thoughts, Pasha811.  When you refer to GT-1, are you talking about the desktop version of the GT-100?

Thanks,

Tony

Hi Tony,

As mentioned by others GT-1 is the last boss product for Guitarists.
The way you can connect them together it's very well explained in Alex H. Video. Google for it.
He uses a GT-001 with SY-300. I understand GT-001 can be mistakenly misplaced with GT-1. However what Alex H. shows in the video can be achieved (in theory as I own only GT-1) with a GT-1 as well. The idea here is to dedicate SY-300 entirely to the Synth Path while using GT-1 for standard guitar sounds.
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

tbeltrans

Quote from: pasha811 on December 12, 2016, 05:34:40 AM
Hi Tony,

As mentioned by others GT-1 is the last boss product for Guitarists.
The way you can connect them together it's very well explained in Alex H. Video. Google for it.
He uses a GT-001 with SY-300. I understand GT-001 can be mistakenly misplaced with GT-1. However what Alex H. shows in the video can be achieved (in theory as I own only GT-1) with a GT-1 as well. The idea here is to dedicate SY-300 entirely to the Synth Path while using GT-1 for standard guitar sounds.

Thanks pasha811.  I have the GT-100, so that is why I was curious.  I will have to watch the video that explains this configuration.  One thing about the GT-100 is that it is large.  Fortunately, the SY-300 is rather small, so together they could still fit in the space I have for them.

Tony

pasha811

Quote from: tbeltrans on December 12, 2016, 01:15:57 PM
Thanks pasha811.  I have the GT-100, so that is why I was curious.  I will have to watch the video that explains this configuration.  One thing about the GT-100 is that it is large.  Fortunately, the SY-300 is rather small, so together they could still fit in the space I have for them.

Tony

That's the video.


I think that your GT-100 can be hooked cascaded to SY300 using the Guitar Output. Alex H. states thats when it's off the Guitar Out acts as a pass through so I think it could feed the GT-100 as well as it feeds the GT-001 in the video.
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

tbeltrans

Thanks pasha811.  I will watch this video.  If I understand what you are saying, it will work.  I can take the guitar output from my GR-55 and run it into my GT-100 and it works fine.  This sounds like a similar setup.

Thanks,

Tony


chrish

The sy300  sounds better if you run the dry oscs through an analog filter and asdr envelopes (i use the audio inputs on moog voyager and slim phatty) and then send that signal to fx. It also helps to think of the sy as a paraphonic synth and use it that way or as a mono synth.

It also sounds good just using it to get a straight guitar tone.

Vincent

Hi everyone,
I'm new around on the VGuitarForum, it really is a very interesting website.
Now as for the SY-300; In my opinion this piece of equipment has such a huge range of possibillities that one get's easily lost in them, and eventually end up with tons of noise and oscillators singing about.
It's like watching 1000 movies at the same time, it's important to step back from the whole thing and build up a simple preset from scratch. Personnaly I desactivate all the effects and programm a single oscillator, without using anything else.
It's very tempting to add lots of effects but the point can get blurry very, very soon.

gobi

For me, the SY300 is totaly amazing, because it works! (with any Guitar)
But, yes i agree a few points int the "software" could be better.
I suggest, we start a new Topic about points that could be done better by Boss, hopefully just with a simple update.
...sorry  for my bad english, i'm from germany

chrish

#33
Quote from: gobi on January 13, 2017, 05:49:46 AM
For me, the SY300 is totaly amazing, because it works! (with any Guitar)
But, yes i agree a few points int the "software" could be better.
I suggest, we start a new Topic about points that could be done better by Boss, hopefully just with a simple update.

[Unquote]It also works when using other synth wave forms  that can benefit from the sy harmonic restructure treatment an/or fx processing.

Maybe some software updates would help, however many here agree that a 13 pin hex input, along with the 1/4'' input jack, would have solved alot of sound quality and polyphonic issues.

i did an experiment where i input a simple sustaining synth wave with all three oscs on the sy excepting any freq value.

Then i kept adding sustaining notes. After 3 notes, the sy300 started to choke. It could no longer extract pitch information from any new input audio waves.

So at best in this mode, it has 3 note poly. The vg's, which have a hex pickup processer, can cleanly deal with all six strings. And with the vg99, six strings on both audio channels.

Many people seem to fear the hex pickup system for some reason. Maybe they don't understand it or it doesn't fit some sort of image concept, i don't know.

However, Roland has proven that hex processing can work. Then they adbandon it with the sy, in favor of market pressure  and we get a product that doesn't entirely work to it's highest potential. Expect more of the same.   

Vincent

Hello,

I'm trying to control my SY-300 using my good old TC-electronics G-System.

The idea is to have the G-System control presets switching aswell as further control per preset on both my GP-10 and SY-300 which are meant to work as a team IMO.
This requires letting go of the G-System's internal effects, at least in my case, and only using it for MIDI switching.

I started out with putting both units on #CC16 so the SY-300 can 'hear' the G-System on MIDI.
This allows me to change the patches on the SY-300 following those present on the G-System. It took me about 5 minutes to get this working correctly. Those interested can ask me for further information of course.

The next step was to assign MIDI channels to the 10 switches or buttons left to program on the G-System. I decided to keep the first five for the GP-10 and the following five for the SY-300.

Since I haven't solved my USB/MIDI problem on the GP-10 side yet I started out 'integrating' the SY-300.
I herefor assigned a midi toggle or hold function to switches (buttons) 8 to 12 on the G-system.
Switch 8 has #CC08, 9 has #C09 etc.
This way, using the BOSS TONE STUDIO for SY-300 software, I can attach these MIDI channels to certain functionalities of the SY-300.

I can, for example, use one of the switches to toggle (on/off) one of the 4 FX blocks or modifiy the value of this or that filtre.
The possibilities really are enormous, using the 5 switches makes me play around for ages in every patch.

BUT.....yes there is a BUT  >:(

But for some reason, when I switch from one preset (or patch if you will) to another, and (all this by using the G-system) go back to the first preset, most of the values (on/off) have changed, even if I do a backup, disconnect the PC etc.

This means two things:  (let's say FX01 for the example)

1 - The FX01 block, which was OFF when I left the preset, now is ON for some reason.
2 - The light indicator of the switch I assigned FX01 to is OFF, which means the whole function has been inverted. To put it on I must switch it off and vice versa.

Can this have anything to do with the MIDI message the G-System seems to send on #CC00?
Is there anyone out there who ran into some similar problem (on these units or any others?) and know the reason for this discomfort?

Thanks in advance and greetings from France,
Vincent

gobi

i was talking about much lighter stuff.... for example:
-graphik equalizer
-amp env attack for guitar Input
-oktaver effekt
-someting like "keyboard tracking" ->more filter as higher notes

i think these are easy to do pionts making the SY300 much better
...sorry  for my bad english, i'm from germany

Vincent

I agree and apologize Gobi...I must admit that I wasn't really replying to your post but more or less trying to 'start' a topic or at least get my questions answered. :-\
Being new on the forum I guess I need some exercise to work my way around. Lots of things to learn here.
I'll try to hook up my post under a more appropriate topic covering the 'GP-10, the SY-300, DIY GK guitars and MIDI controlling the whole set' area.

Now about the SY-300; It is a most versatile unit but needs to be tamed first. If not one will eventually get lost in the wide woods of it's near to endless possibilities.
The best way to work around this complcation is to use the Boss Tone Studio software in order to do the step-by-step thing approach this kind of équipment requires.

One big shortcoming of the SY-300 though would be the lack of control buttons (without being willing to sacrifice the patc-up and down CTL2 and CTL3 that is).
In it's standard configuration you find yourself with just one single control switch which doesn't relate to the huge playground hidden inside the blue box.
This is the reason I want to use my beloved G-system switchboard to pilot the SY-300 AND the GP-10 which (IMO) also lacks some easily usable switch buttons. (oops, I'm sliding off again here... ::))



Brak(E)man

My main issue remains. The non hex input.
The polyphony doesn't work.
To me it's only useable as a mono synth
and that's too bad because the sounds it's capable of
are good , sometimes really good.
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Vincent

I agree with you Bapman. (could this possibly be your real name?).
Even though the SY-300 works like a charme on the not by note register there is no possible way to really throw in some chords without ending up with some sort of 'soupe'.
But did you know how marvelous it fills up the background when using the GP-10 in combination with the SY-300?
I use my Home-adapted hollow-body HB 35 GK-3 guitar going directly into the GP-10. From there the 'normal' guitar signal goes to the SY-300.
I created a way of choosing either the GP-10, the SY-300 or both.
The way they blend in together brings up the 'ol tear in the eye (or maybe I'm ust tired of staying up late playing with my toys? :P), and I truly adore the clear, cleanly cut sound of the GP-10 with the wind-blowing background created by the SY-300.
The combination leaves us with a inhuman choice of sound and character, an infinite range of possibilities.
One can simply use a GP-10 modelled clean strat and some discrete delay and slowly shift gears to the most incredible amazing out-of-space cacaphonie from this point, being able to move up and up into the insanity of some mothership touching ground from scratch.

The only problem is the unlimited choice of creation, which can make us forget to play music (especially at first) when playing around with this sort of devices.

I love my GP-10 and my SY-300 but I do really think they might bore me were they to be stand-alone.
But that's only me ofcourse.

Brak(E)man

I've used GP and SY together but I can't use the combo as I'd like.
All due to the non polyphony on the SYs part.
I get better results mixing the normal PUs withs some synth like pad
on the GP or VG 88 or 99
IMO the Roland corp is shooting themselves in the foot by
implementing a none hex approach that doesn't work.
not many guitar players that's not already into hex are going to want the box.
( and I guess that's what Roland is going for )
It's really bad since the SY work like the VGs with almost zero latency
and no limitations regarding your own style of playing and some great sounds and possibilities.
( compring the older synths like GR 30 - 55 - 700 or the guitar to midi )
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

admin

#40
Use a GK hex PU guitar into a breakout box and feed six separate SY-300's ;)

Or use a used VG8-EX + VG-99 and have far more power and sonic pallet than one SY-300 at same cost






IMHO the SY-300 is overpriced and "poly synth from normal PU" features are overstated and oversold

This technology is  never going to deliver DSP Alt tunings in my lifetime

Capo replacement,yes but DADGAD at a step of button ,no

chrish

#41
Quote from: Brak(E)man on January 15, 2017, 03:49:32 AM
My main issue remains. The non hex input.
The polyphony doesn't work.
To me it's only useable as a mono synth
and that's too bad because the sounds it's capable of
are good , sometimes really good.
i agree. Roland did shoot themselves in the foot. After being a loyal customer for many, many, many years, and reading the forums about folks having simular issues with poorly designed and supported products, i'm spending my money elsewhere for the moment.

When the hex vg2020 comes along, i'll rethink my position.


JiveTurkey

I think users with deep needs that have been rocking Roland synth gear for ages are disappointed in the SY. I think cover band guys such as myself who just want some nice coloration on their tones and the ability to add some "non-standard" guitar tones to the mix should enjoy the SY immensely.

My only real request is they continue to refine it and when (if?) they make the move to a new flagship unit; they include the 1/4" synth tech in that flagship.

If pressed for complaints/concerns; the feel for me is a little off when I am using only the waveforms and not a standard guitar tone underneath. I have mitigated that by adding a "guitar" layer underneath the synth layers in my live sets. Tracking is excellent, that complaint aside. I don't need the ability to accurately pitch shift complex chords on an 8 string guitar. That's what the Kemper is for  ;D  I'm all in with the SY still; warts and all.

Brak(E)man

To me all synths from GR300 up until SY 300 works chordwise.
The tracking with the GR with the exception of 300 is not good.
My Gr700 works as well/bad as the Gr33 or 55 ( actually better than 55).
(In 1987 I used guitar on top to cover the synth lag , in 2017 I'm still doing it
but for a different reason.)
The SY 300 can't track a chord with 4ths or 2nds and I'm not even mentioning
-9 maj7 + 11 etc etc. the only intervals it can handle are octave and 5ths.
So for me it's completely useless as a live synth , playing any kind of polyphony.
A major step back ( or several ),  it's a shame , the feel and the " tracking "
are spot on. Why the GP got hex and normal input and not SY is ............ Beyond me
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

pasha811

#44
Quote from: admsustainiac on January 15, 2017, 07:47:51 AM
Use a GK hex PU guitar into a breakout box and feed six separate SY-300's ;)

Or use a used VG8-EX + VG-99 and have far more power and sonic pallet than one SY-300 at same cost






IMHO the SY-300 is overpriced and "poly synth from normal PU" features are overstated and oversold

This technology is  never going to deliver DSP Alt tunings in my lifetime

Capo replacement,yes but DADGAD at a step of button ,no

You can also feed a GP10 output to your DAW (six strings) and place Zebrify on every channel... there you'll have a magic polyphonic synth! (with laptop dongle  ;D)

u-he Zebra with zebrify
Quotepasha811 wrote>
Three years ago, before VG99 entered in my life.. I was using Zebra (http://www.u-he.com/cms/zebra) as an FX.
This processes sound in real time and it's great. Good playability good sound and an incredible variety of applications!

As an example you can listen to this song where I used it for lead guitar:
http://alonetone.com/pasha/tracks/full-moon-3

Happy to share Zebra patches if you like. You can have Zebra in trial mode for free but after a fixed amount of time it detunes itself @random.

Best
Pasha
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=13010.msg94707#msg94707
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

Brak(E)man

I guess I'm stupid or foolish enough too think/ hope that Roland is going to fix
either the hex input or the algorithm to fix the chord problem if either or both options are doable at all.
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Elantric

#46
QuoteWhy the GP got hex and normal input and not SY is ............ Beyond me

Because the whole point of the Boss SY-300  was to allow normal guitars to deliver synth tones 




Quotearted by Brak(E)man - Last post by Brak(E)man
I guess I'm stupid or foolish enough too think/ hope that Roland is going to fix the hex input

Thats never going to happen with SY300  - must wait for a future product


Brak(E)man

I realize both but as said I'm a fool
and hoping for the impossible
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

gobi

realy,i also dont see (or hear) a big problem with cords.
Maybe it also depents on the style one is playing? I do fingerpicking, mostly with easy cords from two to for notes. Maybe the SY is not so strumming friendly?

No need for a hex pickup was one of the main reason to by the SY, not beacuase im afraid of hex pickups - i simply will use it in future for other instruments.... im dreaming about building special instruments for the SY.......
...sorry  for my bad english, i'm from germany

Brak(E)man

Quote from: gobi on January 16, 2017, 09:50:27 AM
realy,i also dont see (or hear) a big problem with cords.
Maybe it also depents on the style one is playing? I do fingerpicking, mostly with easy cords from two to for notes. Maybe the SY is not so strumming friendly?

No need for a hex pickup was one of the main reason to by the SY, not beacuase im afraid of hex pickups - i simply will use it in future for other instruments.... im dreaming about building special instruments for the SY.......

I don't strum ever :)

Try a - 9 or -2 or maj 7 interval
it's mush
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch