Who else models guitars and pickups (not just amps)?

Started by sine_3000, April 06, 2015, 08:30:36 PM

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sine_3000

I have been playing modeled amps for years and I thought that was all there was.  Now that I have my GR-55 I realize that the guitar and pickup can be modeled too, and I like it a lot.

Other than a kind of lame-looking attempt at guitar.pickup modeling by none other than AutoTune, I haven't really been able to find anyone else that makes that type of modeling - it's just amps and cabs and FX.

Can someone tell me if I've missed something?  Hardware or software both.

rolandvg99

To V or not to V: That is the question.

My little Soundcloud corner

Now_And_Then

 Fishman's "Fluence" line of pickups can also be considered modelling, I would think.

But as regards Roland specifically, you need to know (and maybe you already do) that the three VG models are not at all identical in their guitar and pickup modelling capabilities.

The VG-8 / VG-8S1 /VG-8EX have the most extensive guitar and pickup modeling capabilities.

The VG-88 / VG-88 v2 are rather less capable in this respect but the capabilities are not simply a subset of the VG-8 family's capabilities - some of its capabilities are new and not present in either the VG-8 or the VG-99. (Going by memory here...)

The VG-99 has been stripped of all the most interesting guitar and pickup capabilities of the aforementioned units.

I was really hoping that the VG-99 would at the very least be a grand unification of all the guitar and pickup models and adjustable parameters from the preceding VG's and hopefully with even more capabilities added; so it was a tremendous disappointment, for me at least, to see how simplified and atrophied the VG-99 is in this respect. It kind of began to sour me on the whole VG / GR / GK-compatible device family. The GR-55 and GP-10 represent nothing of interest to me - although to be fair, if I needed to use acoustic guitar sounds, I might look into the GP-10. But otherwise, no.

djidoe

#3
All the ones mentioned above
Roland VG-8, 88, 99
Roland GR-55
Boss GP-10
Line-6 Variax, Tyler Variax
New Antares ATG-1...





Or Add an Antares Internal DSP board to one of your guitar
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=13462.0






Jim Williams

I have checked some other guitar makers and the way some wire 2 hum-buckers with switching options for taping and coil selection. you can get wide range of guitar tones with the inclusion of a peizzo bridge you can get some guitar modeling from the real world. with some research you might find information on how to get your own guitar to be set up for that type sound selections. I saw a demo of a PRS that could get some LP, Tele and strat tones but you could expand on the switches and get some more options as well. you could design some custom electronics and wind up with a very cool guitar. add in a set Tronical mini tuners and you might get what you want.
Skype: (upon Request)

Everything from modeling to the real deal, my house looks like a music store.

sine_3000

#5
Thanks for the replies.  I'd like to add some more thoughts.

I looked at the Boss GT-100 and realized that there is no instrument modeling at all!  Just amps and FX. 

So in that respect, the newer GP-10 trumps it, because it does model instruments and pickups, like the GR-55 does.

But, in spite of people saying that they think the modeling on the GP-10 sounds better than on the GR-55, according to the manuals, the modeling is exactly the same between the two, with the exception of the GP-10 missing the GR-55's "twin humbucker strat", and instead offering up two new "bright" humbucker pickups, and a fretless guitar (which sounds kind of cool).

As to the above replies, the Antares is the Autotune modeler I mentioned, and at $699, it seems to model about half what Roland does, so it's a non-starter.

For the Roland V series, it does seem that they moved away from instrument modeling, and went with more amp and FX modeling - so that rules that out too.

And for the Fishman, they really just sell high-end pickups, that aren't "modelers" in any sense.  What I was HOPING for was that Fishman would provide instrument and pickup modeling in the TriplePlay software!  That would be it for me.  But, it seems that haven't explored that option.

Also, I'm really surprised that Line 6's offerings are so slim - AND you have to buy a whole guitar from them, just to model other guitars!  Seems pretty pointless, coming from a modeling company!  But, they do sell amps too, so I guess it makes sense.

So all this leads me back to the surprising fact that there aren't really any PC-based software instrument modelers - and, that Roland really seems to lead the industry with instrument modeling!  So, I guess I'll be sticking with the GR-55.

(Unless, I could demo the GP-10 and really feel that the modeling there surpasses the GR-55, but I'm pretty impressed with the GR's modeling so far. The GP-10 would have to be AMAZING to make me think that it could be any better than what it already is on the GR-55.)

I'm still interested in learning if there is any PC software-based instrument modeling that I haven't discovered,  though.  If anyone knows something that hasn't been mentioned so far, please share your knowledge!  Thanks again.

rolandvg99

The GR-55 has the same parameters, but the GP10 has a faster CPU leading to lower latency and a more direct feel to the simulated instruments. The GP-10 also offers re-instrumentation through USB. I have tried everything Roland/Boss has thrown at the market and personally I'll say the GP-10 is their best effort, soundwise, to date. It still barely scratches the surface of the VG-99 for creative flow and possibilities.
To V or not to V: That is the question.

My little Soundcloud corner

Elantric

Sine_3000

Suggest read all docs in this thread

Roland COSM Reference
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=88.0

Covers origins of Roland Guitar Modeling


Elantric

#8
QuoteI have checked some other guitar makers and the way some wire 2 hum-buckers with switching options for taping and coil selection.

Gibson Dark Fire / Dusk Tiger

http://www.gibson.com/Products/Electric-Guitars/Les-Paul/Gibson-USA/Dark-Fire/Features.aspx

http://www.gibson.com/Products/Electric-Guitars/Les-Paul/Gibson-USA/Dusk-Tiger/Next-Generation.aspx



EBMM Game Changer

http://gamechanger.music-man.com/specs.eb




Peavey Vypyr VIP Amp

Smash

Variax yes - even now the original Variax acoustic models still rule over the Roland counterparts. I had a Variax 600 for a while and loved the accessibility of models and tuning. The GK pup wart is way too limited in terms of functionality.

I got some great tones out of that thing (cleans mainly admittedly).

Are the Fender VG models unique to that guitar or just the generic Roland models?

My old Casio MG510 had ghost pups fitted which gave piezo tone, and the HSH switching was by three, 3 way toggles that gave every combination known to man. Guess how many tones I used? Yeah - one!


Elantric

#10
QuoteVariax yes - even now the original Variax models still rule over the Roland counterparts.

To each his own - I disagree


Smash

Now that comes of typing too fast - you are right to disagree too!!! I meant (and missed the word) acoustic

Doh!

Still holding out for a Variax 700 acosutic

Elantric

#12
Its just important to know there is now  competition in the hex pickup + DSP Guitar Modeling / DSP alt tuning system world:

Roland,
http://roland.com/V-Guitar/about.html



Line-6 


Antares,
$699 plus shipping. Fully loaded with model pacs.



http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ATG-1?utm_source=Google&utm_medium=PPC&utm_campaign=none&utm_term=DSA_-_Product&adpos=1t1&device=c&network=s&gclid=Cj0KEQjwgI6pBRDak6aRovWNqLsBEiQA8zZSLrwA_6LjhxfSbadY2-fRjn_oR0NVrxuaGia9yYDaquYaAiYr8P8HAQ

Smash

Are Antares actually in the modelling side of the competition?

I was just trying to find any products other than the autotune guitar and there isn't much out there about the ATG apart from some old youtube vids.

It did sound very cool from the models that were demo'd  - is there anything more out there?

Kevin M

I have yet to be impressed with ANY of the acoustic models I've ever heard from any manufacturer. They all sound way too thin and artificial to me.  Those aside, Roland and Line 6 both do a really decent job at guitar modeling.   Haven't heard much of the Antares stuff, but looking forward to some YouTube reviews.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Smash

There aren't many decent Variax acoustic vid demos out there but I think some of the tones on here would happily sit undetected in a mix:


Elantric

#16
QuoteThere aren't many decent Variax acoustic vid demos out there but I think some of the tones on here would happily sit undetected in a mix:

I agree - even today - my 2005 Line-6 Variax Acoustic 700 offers very good acoustic sims 

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep04/articles/line6variax.htm






---

QuoteAre Antares actually in the modelling side of the competition?

RTM
Antares ATG-1 Owners Manual
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=13067.0






http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ATG-1?utm_source=Google&utm_medium=PPC&utm_campaign=none&utm_term=DSA_-_Product&adpos=1t1&device=c&network=s&gclid=Cj0KEQjwgI6pBRDak6aRovWNqLsBEiQA8zZSLrwA_6LjhxfSbadY2-fRjn_oR0NVrxuaGia9yYDaquYaAiYr8P8HAQ

Smash

Ah I was looking for wrong ATG! Should've searched ATG-1 - just watched the Vimeo demo and very nice piece of kit but my god did he skip over the acoustic models - one strum per model!!

germanicus

#18
Quote from: Smash on April 07, 2015, 10:29:46 AM
Variax yes - even now the original Variax acoustic models still rule over the Roland counterparts.



I agree (but to be fair I have not tried the gp10, only heard several demos).

Variax workbench is incredibly powerful and versatile. For all the discussion on this forum of how deep the vg99 is, I'm surprised there isn't more discussion regarding Workbench. It is extremely versatile and one can come up with fantastic variations by mixing body types, pickup types, pickup positions, pickup angle/orientations, and pot parameters.

My albums done with modeling/guitar synth at http://music.steamtheory.com

JTV69/59P/Godin LGXT/Multiac ACS/Variax 700 AC
Helix/FTP/GP10/VG99/SY1000
Traynor k4

germanicus

Quote from: Smash on April 07, 2015, 11:17:21 AM
Ah I was looking for wrong ATG! Should've searched ATG-1 - just watched the Vimeo demo and very nice piece of kit but my god did he skip over the acoustic models - one strum per model!!

Smash there is a demo dedicated to the ATG-1 acoustic models:
http://www.autotuneforguitar.com/media/artists.php

Watch the second Larry Mitchell video

I found it underwhelming compared to the competition. Sounds like a basic piezo output from an ovation or even a Godin.
It's such a subjective matter though, everyone is looking for a different sound.
My albums done with modeling/guitar synth at http://music.steamtheory.com

JTV69/59P/Godin LGXT/Multiac ACS/Variax 700 AC
Helix/FTP/GP10/VG99/SY1000
Traynor k4

Elantric

#20
QuoteVariax workbench is incredibly powerful and versatile. For all the discussion on this forum of how deep the vg99 is, I'm surprised there isn't more discussion regarding Workbench. It is extremely versatile and one can come up with fantastic variations by mixing body types, pickup types, pickup positions, pickup angle/orientations, and pot parameters.

FWIW - Original Variax Workbench Manual is  posted here
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=68

Elantric

#21
QuoteWatch the second Larry Mitchell video

I found it underwhelming compared to the competition. Sounds like a basic piezo output from an ovation or even a Godin.

In reality - the Antares Acoustic modeling has three variations

The acoustic Models have the choices:

   'Dreadnought     '
   'OM guitar       '
   'Finger Style    '


Agreed - Antares needs MUCH better online demo videos, bulk are very weak efforts IMHO.

The "big deal" about the Antares ATG-1 is it excels for Alt Tunings  - much better than Line-6 / Roland / Boss offerings.


read this if you expect to play in DSP created Dropped tuning much of the time
GP-10 Digital Artifacts using GP10
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=13752.msg100679#msg100679


And then there is the Antares "AutoTune" which intonates your guitar on the fly and allows you to play chords in all positions "in tune"   





Djijoe wrote>
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=7286.msg102803#msg102803
Quote
I did receive my ATG-1 yesterday and I'm really blown away !

Everything is great !

I'm really a power user. I'm playing in a trio situation with looping, detuning, sequence, sync video projection and I will exploit the full potential of the ATG-1. We play rock covers from Stone Temple Pilots to Metallica and Iron Maiden. My singer/bass player use a VB-99 and is not a screamin singer like Bruce Dickinson ! So a lot of down tuning.

The ATG-1 do not create any artifacts with sustained chords when down tuning (as opposed to a Boss GP-10).

The Windows editor is really great and the ATG-1 is so simple to understand... no heavy lurning curve...

The acoustic guitars sound great when EQed and compressed. I agree that the Variax was better sounding (before FW 2). But ATG-1 acoustic guitars are usable.

MIDI implementation is also great. Simple to use with SONAR for Program Changes... except you have to uncheck something in a MIDI menu (Zero controllers when play stop).

More later...

germanicus

Quote from: Elantric on April 07, 2015, 11:30:12 AM
In reality - the Antares Acoustic modeling has three variations

The acoustic Models have the choices:

   'Dreadnought     '
   'OM guitar       '
   'Finger Style    '


Agreed - Antares needs MUCH better online demo videos, bulk are very weak efforts IMHO.

The "big deal" about the Antares ATG-1 is it excels for Alt Tunings  - much better than Line-6 / Roland / Boss offerings.

And then there is the "AutoTune" which intonates your guitar on the fly and plays chords all positions "in tune"

Yeah the alternate tunings is the really interesting aspect.
Im generally happy with the JTV in this regard but would like to try an ATG-1 in person.

Regarding intonation, I have an earvana on one guitar, and its an improvement, but not perfect.
My albums done with modeling/guitar synth at http://music.steamtheory.com

JTV69/59P/Godin LGXT/Multiac ACS/Variax 700 AC
Helix/FTP/GP10/VG99/SY1000
Traynor k4

sine_3000

I'm as much of a jazzer as anything else, and I was pretty excited to hear the GR-55 emulate a Gibson L4 pretty darn accurately!  As well as a respectable ES-335.  I don't see any of the aforementioned modelers doing anything at all like that.  The Antares, it's big claim is putting "lipstick single coils on a modern strat" ooh boy!  Not so impressed.
Also as I researched this, I learned more about the GR-55's acoustic emulation, I didn't realize it modeled four different acoustics, including a Guild.  I'll need to explore that.  So much to this little box.

Elantric

#24
QuoteI don't see any of the aforementioned modelers doing anything at all like that.

Read the Owners Manuals - Gibson L4 COSM Guitar model has been around in the Roland VG processors for years)


VG-8
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=13079.msg95468#msg95468

VG-88
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=10981.0


VG-99
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=28.0



GP-10 manuals
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=11566.0


and the Variax Models include Jazz Boxes ( Gibson Super 400, ES-175)




But i would not write off the Antares so easily. It has good PU modeling and lower noise than Roland / Line-6 offerings and near imperceptible flutter during DSP alt tunings

FWIW - Both Steve Vai and Dweezil Zappa are using the Antares on their new albums.







last week I heard a great new track by Mr. Zappa, and he was playing a fretless Gibson SG   - that was real time being "retuned" by the Antares system, with very good results.