Native Instruments RigKontrol 3

Started by mbenigni, May 13, 2013, 07:37:32 AM

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mbenigni

Brand & Model :  Native Instruments Rig Kontrol 3

Status: RECOMMENDED (especially for USB 3 ports, and in cases where a footcontroller is required and USB ports are scarce)

Computer Type & OS: Microsoft Surface Pro, Windows 8

Computer Connection method: USB 3

Driver version: 3.1.0

DAW/VSTi/AU Software Instrument used: Ableton Live, Cakewalk Dimension Pro, Native Instruments Guitar Rig 5

Comment:  As noted in my Audio Kontrol 1 post above, NI is one of the few mfrs to specifically address USB 3 compatibility in their driver release notes, so no coincidence that this interface performs well connected to the SP's single USB 3 port.  This is a pretty minimal, guitar-oriented interface with 2ins/ 2outs on unbalanced 1/4" cables.

Pros:  Clean audio at low latencies, built in footcontroller for Guitar Rig or generic MIDI I/O, bus-powered.

Cons: no SPDIF, loud footswitches.

(I'll post a longer review in a separate thread.)

mbenigni

#1
This is a weird one: it's a controller and an audio interface, so I'm not quite sure where to post.  Since most of my comments have to with its merits as a controller (it's a pretty solid audio interface, enough said) I'll post here.

My immediate impression was mixed:  the build quality of the RK3 is a bit flimsy.  Whereas the RK2 had a sturdy brushed steel chassis, the RK3 is a cheaper painted sheet metal*, and NI appears to have de-glossed/brushed the finish after assembly, skipping the area between the individual pedals, which just looks cheesy.  It ships in a plain white box, vs. the retail-ready packaging of the RK2, and at first glance I thought, used, refurbished product.  There was a time I'd have sent it right back on this basis alone, but I've waited too long for an effective solution, so I'm giving it a fair shot.

Second impression:  I HATE (HATE, HATE) the switches NI chose for the floorboard.  As on the RK2, they are of the "clicky" variety as opposed to silent switches, but because the chassis is lighter and more resonant, the switching is very loud, and every switch has its own distinct "pitch" and feel, which is REALLY distracting.  Performing with a rock band, this problem would be negligible, but sitting in a studio... ugh, horrible design decision.  I immediately took the unit apart hoping to swap in some silent switches, but NI has soldered these parts directly to the various PCBs, so it's beyond my meager soldering skills to fix the problem.  :(

Moving on...  I fired up Guitar Rig and was immediately reminded of how good GR can sound, and how good the integration with the RK footcontrollers is, and I wondered why I went so long without using the RK2 I already owned.  (I keep wrestling with Ableton Live's Looper, which in my experience is just not ready for prime time, when in fact GR's Loop Machine works flawlessly.)

Then I started testing the Controller Editor software, which intercepts the RK3's control signals and converts them to MIDI.  This doesn't actually reprogram the RK3; it configures a service that's always running in the background on Mac/PC to generate MIDI from a virtual port.  That's a little disappointing maybe, but the RK3 requires USB power anyway, so it's kind of a given that a Mac/PC will be in the picture.

The Controller Editor software is a little heavy-handed.  The first thing it does is put the RK3 in MIDI mode aka "con" mode, and defeat all of the excellent Guitar Rig integration.  I'd have preferred to have both active.  Why isn't this an option?  Similarly, you have to choose between internal MIDI - routed virtually to your DAW - and external MIDI - routed to the RK3 h/w port and out to external gear.  Again, why not both??  I guess this is something can be worked around by routing through your DAW, but it seems like an odd design decision.

Once you're in MIDI mode, it's also a hassle to get the RK3 back into normal "GR" mode. You have to run GR standalone and play with the options there.  If you tend to run GR as a plugin... you've got to make a special trip...

All of this said, it does everything the RK2 did, but adds 2 more buttons, and it can be used for generic MIDI.  A solid, bus-powered audio interface and footcontroller, hanging off one USB 3 port... on balance I'd call that a win.  I'm just praying these switches will break in and stop making such a god-awful racket.  This one problem is a borderline deal-breaker for me.

The only other thing that separates this from being an absolute home run for me: the absence of SPDIF I/O.  Mainly because I'm integrating my laptop DAW with a Kemper Profiling Amp, and the KPA's SPDIF output would have been so useful for monitoring wet guitars/ tracking dry guitars for reamping. As it stands, I can do the same with analog (although there's another discussion to be had about KPA routing limitations here...) but SPDIF would have been sweet

Similarly, if you need XLR's, balanced 1/4", or phantom power, this is not the interface you're looking for.  Laptop guitarists with typical 1/4" analog/ MIDI needs - especially those in bands much louder than the footswitches LOL - should be satisfied.


*Not 100% sure about the materials in either case; this is more of a gut reaction.  I'll take a look at them side by side tonight to clarify.

mbenigni

One other minor note:  you can configure MIDI (CC, PC, etc) for the expression pedal, and for the switch at toe-down under the expression pedal, but you can't assign different messages to the pedal depending on ON/OFF state.  So you won't be able to use it as a switchable volume/wah for external gear, for instance.  (You can achieve this in Guitar Rig with an A/B split, but I can't see anyway to get - for instance - the KPA to respond to RK3 MIDI in the same way.)

mbenigni

My original review pretty much sums it up.  It works as advertised: decent audio interface if 2x2 1/4" is all you need, MIDI over USB or (not and) MIDI out to external DIN, provided NI's software service is running in the background.*  Configuration for that service is a little finicky, but it works fine.  My only major complaint is with regard to the OBSCENELY LOUD switches.  :(

*I haven't tested the RK3 with an iOS device (can't find my CCK at the moment) but based on this requirement, I would say that the MIDI implementation is not class-compliant.  It may very well function as a class-compliant audio interface, though.  Did this rumor come from a reliable source?

Elantric

#4




And more info on using RK3 as a stand alone MIDI controller here.

The good news they lowered the price to $249 for hardware only.
http://www.native-instruments.com/en/products/komplete/guitar/guitar-rig-kontrol/overview/the-hardware/pricing/

Three years ago I recall this was $399.



https://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=133564
QuoteI can say my Rig Kontrol is now fully working as a Midi Controller with Live. I had a problem with the foot pedal but this is now resolved. I think I had to recalibrate the foot pedal. What I did, I opend Controller Editor, then File, Preferences, Controller, Recalibrate. I also switched "Start in Midi Mode" on, but if I turn it off, the pedal is still working. In essence, you need the latest version of Controller Editor, Rig Kontrol 3 and Guitar Rig 3.



See "Start in MIDI Mode" here

mbenigni

Hmmm.  Just hit Google and found their statement:  http://www.native-instruments.com/knowledge/questions/773/Native+Instruments+hardware+under+Linux

If this is true, then the RK3 is more robust under Linux than under Windows and MacOS. 

Then I start a little further down the rabbit hole:  http://ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-1173044.html

I'm not familiar with the "ALSA" driver specification, and I wouldn't have guessed that "class-compliant" is quite the same thing.  It may be that the ALSA code base has special support for the proprietary RK control signals.  But by my understanding, the RK3 doesn't generate MIDI without a software layer to help, much less class-compliant USB MIDI.

Very interesting stuff, though.  I mentioned last week that I was feeling "DAW-curious" after a pretty good run with Ableton.  Fact is I'm feeling pretty "OS-curious" right now as well.  The more Microsoft tries to mangle Windows into a MacOS also-ran, the more I find myself on the fence, satisfied with neither.  I'm starting to reevaluate what I really need to do with a computer; sometimes wondering if I could get away from the whole lot of it.  If I had time to tackle the learning curve, I might take a stab at the Linux/ open source scene.  All those legacy Windows apps that seemed indispensable a couple of years ago are looking a little long in the tooth, and Microsoft's SkyDrive/Bing inquisition is starting to feel just as invasive as iTunes etc.  Feeling like I may have backed the wrong horse.  I don't know whether to keep chasing this mythical "low-level" OS, or whether to just accept the fact that computers all behave like smartphones now.

mbenigni

QuoteSee "Start in MIDI Mode" here

Yes, that puts the RK3 in MIDI mode, but I believe (I could be wrong) a background service still needs to be running on your PC/Mac.  According to NI's documentation, it installs with the RK3 driver, loads on start up, and runs all the time.  None of which is particularly good news...  But it may be that the RK3 sends a default set of CC's without the service, and the service merely remaps MIDI messages.  The docs were not all that specific, and I haven't tried to devise a way to test conclusively.

Yes the original price was pretty crazy.  $249 is OK, but even that stung after I'd just bought an RK2 (and an RK1 before that).  Finally coughed it up out of sheer desperation.  NI does have h/w sales every so often, and I've read that some people have scored new RK3's as low as $149!

Elantric

#7
Thanks!


A bit more RK3 related info
http://geareview.wordpress.com/2010/05/29/rig-kontrol-3-as-an-easy-to-use-general-midi-controller-for-anything/

http://www.betterguitar.com/equipment/other_gear/native_instruments/guitar_rig/guitar_rig.html


Quoteand Microsoft's SkyDrive/Bing inquisition is starting to feel just as invasive as iTunes etc.  Feeling like I may have backed the wrong horse.

I'm sticking with Win7 until I can transition to a good VMWare host to run the apps i need. I still spend 95% of my work day using a 2001 version of Protel 99 PCB Layout app on a WinXP VMWare virtual machine that is transportable to run on many different platforms   

http://www.vmware.com/products/player/

If I was the CEO of HP, Dell, Lenovo - Id lay the blame of the current PC sales slump on Microsofts door.
Microsoft remains out of touch with corporate america, with their "Bing Desktop / Skydrive" integration in Explorer.

Just give me a machine I can run XTree Gold,  MS Office 2003, Notepad++, and Protel 99 PCB Layout tool - and I can earn enough to maintain my GAS.

mbenigni

#8
A quote from the article you linked here:  http://www.betterguitar.com/equipment/other_gear/native_instruments/guitar_rig/guitar_rig.html

QuoteThe only thing I didn't like about the Rig Kontrol 3 is the loud click the metal switches make. This can get annoying when switching through several presets, and could be noticeable when playing live in a quiet setting. The click is mechanical only, it doesn't affect the signal and is not recorded so it won't affect your recordings.

Looks like this reviewer and I are on the same page.

QuoteIf I was the CEO of HP, Dell, Lenovo - Id lay the blame of the current PC sales slump on Microsofts door.
Microsoft remains out of touch with corporate america, with their "Bing Desktop / Skydrive" integration in Explorer.

Agreed, MS seems to be in some kind of an "in-between" phase right now.  Not quite ready for the next-generation's expectations in terms of UI and cloud integration, but no longer keeping the old guard (e.g. myself) happy either.  They've got deep enough pockets to ride it out, and I'm guessing Windows 8 (or maybe 9 or whatever) will be a good product one day, but it'll take time.  And even then, it won't be the OS I want.  I just want things simple and contained, so I can wrap my own head around data maintenance etc, without putting my faith in features and services designed and maintained by someone else.  Sadly, I think I'm a dinosaur in this regard.  And by the time I have it sorted out, a pile of iPad apps will be capable of doing everything I still "need" to do on a PC anyway.  It's the end of an era, and who knows, maybe it's for the best.

mbenigni

Woah, just saw this:  http://www.ebay.com/itm/NATIVE-INSTRUMENTS-GUITAR-RIG-KONTROL-3-GUITAR-RIG-CONTROLLER-AUDIO-INTERFACE-/190848671263?pt=US_Computer_Recording_Interfaces&hash=item2c6f779e1f

(And by the way, let me know if you're inclined to experiment with an RK2.  I could always ship you mine and we could arrange payment of some kind if it works out for you, or I'd take it back otherwise.)


mbenigni

Oh, awesome!  It'll be good to compare notes with another user.  Let me know what you think of the switches, and if you find any way to improve/ deal with them.  I'll also be interested to hear about compatibility with other OSes and apps.

Elantric


Jim Williams

#13
I am going to get one this week also. I will be setting up a laptop rig with MidiGuitar and plugins with Forte 3 for organizing my performance patches.
Skype: (upon Request)

Everything from modeling to the real deal, my house looks like a music store.

Elantric

Cool!

Maybe we need a new N.I. Rig Kontrol 3 section? ;)

mbenigni

Quote from: Elantric on May 31, 2013, 09:24:58 AM
Maybe we need a new N.I. Rig Kontrol 3 section? ;)

Good by me.  :)

Jim, MIDIGuitar is what got me focused on finding a good audio interface and floorboard again, too.  (That, and the fact that my tablet only has one USB port.)

Jim Williams

I set up my GT-100 with direct monitor off and USB dry guitar out. This is what Rig control is like, it will do until I get one. I tried Forte 3 but it is not stable enough so I am using Kore 2(64 bit) and it also has many midi and audio routing options. It also hosts all my other VST plugins and you can set up performance scenes with program changes. I have made 4 patches and they sound great. I need to some work with MidiGuitar but it is tracking as well as my GR-55 but I think I can get it better. I can set different MidiGuitar settings per patch now witch gives me some much improved results. I cant wait until I get my Rig Control 3, I think with some work I will have a very cool rig. I am concerned about those outside summer gigs with my laptop under the sun. I would be grateful for any input on this issue.
Skype: (upon Request)

Everything from modeling to the real deal, my house looks like a music store.

Jim Williams

Oh buy the way I plan on doing this with my wireless unit, That will be kinda' cool.
Skype: (upon Request)

Everything from modeling to the real deal, my house looks like a music store.

Elantric

#18
QuoteI am concerned about those outside summer gigs with my laptop under the sun. I would be grateful for any input on this issue.

Tips for on stage PCs/ Macs

* Get reflective solar shade covers, avoid black as this color absorbs heat.

* If there is a mechanical hard drive, place the PC/Mac on a rubber damper pad, or be sure to use SSD drives to avoid crashes/ audio stuttering.

* Use a MacMini loaded with SSD drives and an iPad running a VPN Remote client like Airdisplay, Splashtop, or iDisplay app
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=938886&page=2

mbenigni

Quote from: Jim Williams on May 31, 2013, 12:11:33 PM
Oh buy the way I plan on doing this with my wireless unit, That will be kinda' cool.

That's a major benefit of letting the PC do your audio-to-MIDI conversion.  I was using a wireless unit with WIDISoft back around 2005 or so.

Elantric

Looks like another week for my Rig Kontrol 3 arrival.

I hate Ebay sellers that stop responding to messages, and never send the gear. Ive had more "post sale "disputes with scam ebay sellers" in the past 6 months than the prior 12 years.
QuoteI just purchased a used Rig Kontrol 3, should be here mid next week
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NATIVE-INSTRUMENTS-GUITAR-RIG-KONTROL-3-GUITAR-RIG-CONTROLLER-AUDIO-INTERFACE-/281113932552?ViewItem=&ssPageName=ADME%3AX%3AAAQ%3AUS%3A1123&item=281113932552&nma=true&si=8x1YUliZgQPrmgmDJIIX%252FlkMiMc%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

mbenigni

That sucks.  That's one reason I decided to go straight to NI for this one.  And even then I was worried they might be out of stock with an out of date web page indicating otherwise.  As it turned out, I waited about a week for mine.  Not terrible for such a niche product.

Anyway, good luck!

Elantric

When I clicked the "place bid" for the Ebay version  - I was still working under the assumption the RK3 was still $399 list.

It was hard to locate the RK3 URL link, and here at my end, the NI site only shows prices AFTER you log in with your N.I. account.
http://www.native-instruments.com/en/products/komplete/guitar/guitar-rig-kontrol/

Oh well!
 

mbenigni

Yeah, their website is a little byzantine.  If you come in through the front door you could easily be convinced they don't sell Guitar Rig anymore!

Anyway... hopefully you'll get your RK3 eventually and will have saved a few bucks.

Elantric

#24
The Ebay seller of the  NI Rig Kontrol3 I won 7 days ago has not shipped my unit - nor replied to my requests sent via Ebay Message Center that he "de-activate" this   NI Rig Kontrol3 from his NI Service Center.
So I opened a Paypal Resolution Center Claim. Finally the seller responds today that "its only been 3 business days - give me more time to ship "(?? - I beg to differ)  - but by opening a  Paypal Resolution Center Claim, this freezes his Paypal account while the case is under review.  The seller just now is asking I close the dispute, so his Paypal funds can be un-frozen -He claims he needs the paypal funds "un-frozen" so he can use this to pay the $15 shipping charge to ship a 4 pound box via  US Postal Service Package rate 200 miles north (we both live in California)

I know PayPal now has a "Click n Ship" process set up with USPS -
http://about.usps.com/news/national-releases/2012/pr12_072.htm


But I have grown extremely weary of hearing excuse after excuse from flaky Ebay sellers who take my Money, but then never ship the item. Its happened 4 times to me in the past 6 months. Luckily Paypal issues refunds

Maybe its all for the best, I will get a Paypal refund next week - then I can place an order for a fresh retail  NI Rig Kontrol 3