So, Five Pedals Get Into A Bar Fight...

Started by Rhcole, August 14, 2017, 09:13:41 PM

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Rhcole

It was just a couple of weeks ago when I posted about a maximum efficiency/firepower setup featuring a GP-10, Mel-9, and SY-300.
And then the Antares ATG-1 was discontinued and went on sale for less than half of list.
What could I do? Soon, the ATG, which is roughly half the size of the State of Vermont, arrived on my doorstep.
This is the biggest pedal I have ever bought. And here's the problem, it sounds TERRIFIC. I've never heard pitch shifts this clean. You can play them buck naked (the ATG sounds, not you, although who am I to judge?) and they are LISTENABLE.

But, the ATG does not offer any FX, EQ, amps, nada, zero, nyet. And at a minimum the models need EQ to sound good enough to me.
Sigh.
So here comes the SY-300. But by the time you add that and an Exp pedal you might as well throw in the Mel9. And, really, the Mel9 might as well have the Synth9 for a synth trifecta, there's space behind the setup. And, gotta' add better EQ so out comes my trusty SansAmp, which always seems to fix everything.

Put 'em all together and you got urban sprawl. But man, what a setup.

I was trying to figure out how to use the GP-10 with the ATG, it has a 13 pin out. But it won't send pitch info through it, and many of the best effects within the GP rely on synths etc. that aren't tunable by string.

Truth is, you could put a Mooer micro pedal next to the ATG and it would still be a big setup.

What would you pair with the ATG? I could envision going vertical with a stand, but I don't see how that would save any space.

So much for "Use them efficiently and well".

Sweet setup though, modeled in the picture by rescue dog "Cookie".

cags12

You also have the option to quickly get a Luthier Kit and have it in parallel with the GK kit/Hexpander/Polydrive. This way you could save tons of space and still have the option to play the ATG sounds and/or the GP-10 and the rest of your chain. I know I know, you have to be careful with your patches not to play totally out of tune along both systems.

If you give a read to the Luthier Kit installation, there is a section where they described how they made this type on installation on the Adrian Belew Parker while sharing the same pickup. This is cleaner than having two hex pickups side by side. Although you can go Piezo for GK and Hex for ATG kit.

I know this does not answer your exact question of how to pair it, but I thought it could give you option where you do not have to chose one or the other and at the same time saving space.

vtgearhead

Quote from: Rhcole on August 14, 2017, 09:13:41 PM
What would you pair with the ATG? I could envision going vertical with a stand, but I don't see how that would save any space.

Mount 'em all on shelves in a rack case and control via MIDI.  I ended up taking that approach to conserve floor space and reduce setup time at gigs. 

thebrushwithin

QuoteMount 'em all on shelves in a rack case and control via MIDI.  I ended up taking that approach to conserve floor space and reduce setup time at gigs.

I'm into racks, for the same reason.

Jim Williams

here is the thing..... We have all gazed in awe as each new product hit the streets and bought the next best thing. Each device does a different cool thing and pretty soon we become "device managers" over being musicians. Try plugging a real guitar into a real tube amp and play a song any song. If you can't do it your sound is probably all about your gear and not your ability to play music. not saying if you have hi tech you don't make music but start a the most basic level and add in what you need to perform your craft.

we all started out playing guitar and not a guitar synth or effect, and the purest way to express you talent is on a good old 6 string acoustic guitar. That is how I practice at home because if I can make a song believable on my acoustic it can happen on my electric guitar. from that point I then decide what other tools I might need for the recording session or show. you don't always need to bring all the guns out you only need your talent because the only one who cares about you toys is you.

I have a few different rigs that are all for different situations and I never bring it all at once because I might need to rent a truck for the night.

I think if you are doing the work a keyboard player you are not really playing guitar you are just using the guitar as a controller. Most synth stuff I do is for work in my studio not live but live I mostly go old school with amps and pedals. there is a certain satisfaction I get from real guitar tone. Digital stuff also has it's place but if I try out for a band and they think "Oh cool, he has a guitar synth... we don't need to find a keyboard player now" that band is not for me.

This is all just my opinion and I am not telling you how to play or measure your talent, I just offer my two cents.

Jimmy.
Skype: (upon Request)

Everything from modeling to the real deal, my house looks like a music store.

whippinpost91850

snhirsch, I would love to see a picture of your setup

admin

QuoteI was trying to figure out how to use the GP-10 with the ATG

Let the ATG-1 do the guitar modeling / alt tuning

Let the GP-10 do the  FX  /Guitar Amp Modeling  / stereo FX


ATG-1 Left Output > GP-10 Guitar Input  > GP-10 Stereo Out into PA


chrish

So five pedels get into a bar fight...
And the VG 99 watches and knowingly shakes its head while sipping a single malt whisky. :)

Rhcole

Antares in their infinite design wisdom placed the 13 pin jack almost in the center, which means you can't put another pedal right behind it. Does anybody know of a variable height pedal board with the feet at each end so that I could run the ATG wiring underneath and have the SY directly behind it? That might work...

The Antares isn't just another pedal to me, because I could see playing the alt tuned guitars live solo without being embarrassed about the sound quality. That has never been the case before. I got hooked by swapping tunings in and out with the VG-99 but the quality just wasn't there for me without having other instruments to mask the pitch shift deficiencies. Wish there had been a VG-120.


Majiken

For a detailed look at a combined ATG/GK3 build, look here: https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=19806.0

Both systems work fine on their own, the only issue that I have is a tremendous drop in the ATG volume when the 13-pin cable is plugged in.  So far I've only used the guitar live with ATG and the mono output, so it's not a problem- but I would like to understand what causes that?  Could it be that the pots are being loaded down by GK signal?  Can't be power supply, that's coming separately.  Wiring details are in the thread above, so I won't include them here.

Quote from: Jim Williams on August 15, 2017, 10:20:10 AM
here is the thing..... We have all gazed in awe as each new product hit the streets and bought the next best thing. Each device does a different cool thing and pretty soon we become "device managers" over being musicians. Try plugging a real guitar into a real tube amp and play a song any song. If you can't do it your sound is probably all about your gear and not your ability to play music. not saying if you have hi tech you don't make music but start a the most basic level and add in what you need to perform your craft.

we all started out playing guitar and not a guitar synth or effect, and the purest way to express you talent is on a good old 6 string acoustic guitar. That is how I practice at home because if I can make a song believable on my acoustic it can happen on my electric guitar. from that point I then decide what other tools I might need for the recording session or show. you don't always need to bring all the guns out you only need your talent because the only one who cares about you toys is you.

Amen, Jimmy!
Take what you need, put back a bit more, leave the place behind you better than it was before :-)

www.majiken.rocks

admin

Quotethe only issue that I have is a tremendous drop in the ATG volume when the 13-pin cable is plugged in. 

That's because Antares did not account for the added impedance load on the GK string signals of a 2nd connected GK Processor.   

You would think they would have acquired / borrowed a GR-55 or GP-10 to test / develop / verify the functionality of the ATG-1's 13 pin  GK Out jack  - but i understand that did not occur

DreamTheory

Quote from: Jim Williams on August 15, 2017, 10:20:10 AM
if I can make a song believable on my acoustic it can happen on my electric guitar. from that point I then decide what other tools I might need for the recording session or show.

Dude. This totally helped me. Thanks
electric: Epiphone Dot semihollow body, acoustic: mahogany jumbo, recording: Cubase Artist 11 or Tascam DP008

cags12

Quote from: Majiken on August 15, 2017, 03:13:43 PM
For a detailed look at a combined ATG/GK3 build, look here: https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=19806.0

Both systems work fine on their own, the only issue that I have is a tremendous drop in the ATG volume when the 13-pin cable is plugged in. 
Quote from: admsustainiac on August 15, 2017, 03:32:47 PM
That's because Antares did not account for the added impedance load on the GK string signals of a 2nd connected GK Processor.   

You would think they would have acquired / borrowed a GR-55 or GP-10 to test / develop / verify the functionality of the ATG-1's 13 pin  GK Out jack  - but i understand that did not occur

You Installation is a bit different than the one described in the Installation manual. If I understood correctly you are splitting the HEX pickup into both systems, GK and ATG. I guess this would explain the effect you have when activating both systems at the same time.

However, the installation on the Adrian Belew Parker consisted on taking the signal from the 13 pin connector (post pre-amp) and split it to the DSP board (Unity gain/Piezo version), then the signal is routed back to pin 7 of the GK connector as well as the 1/4" Jack and Din 8.

This way you can use ATG with the GP-10 amp models and effects via the GK connector and easily switch patches to full GP-10 Hex processing. Of course, allowing you to run full "legacy" 1/4" jack mode.

This is something I have planned and even ordered a spare Piezo version of the DSP4 board. Also after a lot of email with Henrik.

Note: I will also post this onto your thread.

Rhcole

OK,

Now THIS is clever. Cristian at Sweetwater and I traded various emails about how to get the maximum amount of pedal space bang using the least amount of floor space for this setup. We started out looking at a $275 pedalboard, but when I sent him the ATG dimensions he said it wouldn't work. We went back and forth, and finally he suggested I buy this, flip it over, and load the SY and other pedals on top of it right at the back of the ATG.

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/RkShelfU1

I had to laugh, but I think he's right, it will work. I measured clearances and it is almost just right.

Elantric

#15
Quote from: Rhcole on August 15, 2017, 10:40:15 PM
OK,

Now THIS is clever. Cristian at Sweetwater and I traded various emails about how to get the maximum amount of pedal space bang using the least amount of floor space for this setup. We started out looking at a $275 pedalboard, but when I sent him the ATG dimensions he said it wouldn't work. We went back and forth, and finally he suggested I buy this, flip it over, and load the SY and other pedals on top of it right at the back of the ATG.

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/RkShelfU1

I had to laugh, but I think he's right, it will work. I measured clearances and it is almost just right.

it WILL collapse in the center if left unsupported   - Just add a support in the center  -  placed inverted on a pedal board full of pedals,

Rhcole

What do you think of two 1/2 racks side-by-side, each rated at 25 lbs?
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/HALFRKSH1UNI

A bit more trouble to setup and take down, but still manageable.

Elantric

Quote from: Rhcole on August 15, 2017, 11:00:53 PM
What do you think of two 1/2 racks side-by-side, each rated at 25 lbs?
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/HALFRKSH1UNI

A bit more trouble to setup and take down, but still manageable.

Luckily I know how to use woodworking tools and DIY my own pedal support shelf

vanceg

And I, on the other hand, consider the effects, the ebows, the pitch shifters all part of my overall instrument.  I don't play electric guitar, I play Electronic Guitar.  My setup without my various effects is about as complete as an electric guitarist's rig with only one string - It makes sound...but it's not what I'm aiming at.
And yet I absolute agree - wise to limit yourself to just the gear you feel you need to make the sound in your head.

Quote from: Jim Williams on August 15, 2017, 10:20:10 AM
here is the thing..... We have all gazed in awe as each new product hit the streets and bought the next best thing. Each device does a different cool thing and pretty soon we become "device managers" over being musicians. Try plugging a real guitar into a real tube amp and play a song any song. If you can't do it your sound is probably all about your gear and not your ability to play music. not saying if you have hi tech you don't make music but start a the most basic level and add in what you need to perform your craft.

we all started out playing guitar and not a guitar synth or effect, and the purest way to express you talent is on a good old 6 string acoustic guitar. That is how I practice at home because if I can make a song believable on my acoustic it can happen on my electric guitar. from that point I then decide what other tools I might need for the recording session or show. you don't always need to bring all the guns out you only need your talent because the only one who cares about you toys is you.

I have a few different rigs that are all for different situations and I never bring it all at once because I might need to rent a truck for the night.

I think if you are doing the work a keyboard player you are not really playing guitar you are just using the guitar as a controller. Most synth stuff I do is for work in my studio not live but live I mostly go old school with amps and pedals. there is a certain satisfaction I get from real guitar tone. Digital stuff also has it's place but if I try out for a band and they think "Oh cool, he has a guitar synth... we don't need to find a keyboard player now" that band is not for me.

This is all just my opinion and I am not telling you how to play or measure your talent, I just offer my two cents.

Jimmy.

Rhcole

I'm with Vanceg. I had success when I did studio work as a composer and also because I had a knack for programming synthesizers. This made me less of a "guitar player" and more of a musician who was interested in creating a final result or effect.

So my tools ARE part of my message. I write different music with a pitch-shifted guitar running through the SY-300 and Mel9 than I would if I have my Gretsch running into a gritty tube amp. I use what moves me because it is most authentic to what I have to say musically.

As a side note, I do find I have enormous curiosity around sounds, tones, and textures. That really helped me in studio synthesizer work, but it means I am constantly trying new rigs, configurations and equipment. It is also why I have showered both the GP-10 and SY-300 forums with patches- they arise out of the curiosity of "I wonder what this will sound like".


Rhcole

Upon further review, the two half racks reversed was clearly a "dumb-ass" (technical term) solution. ::)
I found a vendor for economical custom boards and am getting everything done RIGHT.

Sheesh...

Rhcole

#21


OK,

There is no getting the setup tighter than this without involving chainsaws and screams.

The GK cable feeds between two small pedalboards, fit as closely as possible.

The star of this is the 9" "Itty Bitty" pedalboard that I found from this guy on Reverb: kyhotbrownpedalboards.com. It is so new that it still smells of paint.
He has various sizes and will also do custom work. Incredibly good service.

I like really compact setups. This ain't that, but man can it kick some serious pitch-shift guitar/synth butt!

admin

#22
Quote from: Rhcole on August 31, 2017, 01:26:52 PM


OK,

There is no getting the setup tighter than this without involving chainsaws and screams.

The GK cable feeds between two small pedalboards, fit as closely as possible.

The star of this is the 9" "Itty Bitty" pedalboard that I found from this guy on Reverb: kyhotbrownpedalboards.com. It is so new that it still smells of paint.
He has various sizes and will also do custom work. Incredibly good service.

I like really compact setups. This ain't that, but man can it kick some serious pitch-shift guitar/synth butt!


Here are the options for ATG-1 minimization - remove ( or separate) the ATG expression pedal - but know its a Hall Effect operation ( no potentiometers to wear out) 
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=21566.0


chrish

That ATG-1 sure looks like it's bigger than it needs to be to begin with.