"We all have been tuning our guitars wrong" | Can you hear the difference?

Started by admin, February 23, 2017, 10:00:49 PM

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QuoteIn this video I am comparing a regular tuned guitar to a guitar tuned to a method James Taylor taught us via this video:


According to Taylor this method: "Seems to address some of the conflicts that are part of the instrument"






The main information fully explained in the James Taylor video,

The main point is the physics of a vibrating guitar string.

Immediately after the initial "pluck" , the string will be "sharp" - ( higher frequency), and goal of his described tuning method is to minimize this phenomena. As the vibrating string's energy decays, the pitch goes lower.




More James Taylor lessons
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL4C7B31793C012820&feature=plcp

Shingles

Firstly, that tuning method has been known for a long time and is just what the Buzz Feiten (sp?) system attempts to compensate for. In fact the Earvana nut compensates for it a whole lot better.
Personally, I find I get the best result by tuning the notes at the first fret, not the open strings. Same for setting intonation - set the intonation using the first fret and 13th fret notes. This eliminates much - but not all - of the compromise.

Secondly, guitar vibrations are not sine waves. That can clearly be seen in the video. If they were pure or nearly pure sine waves, they would sound very boring.
Nik
--------------------------------
Tonelab, VG99, Axon AX100, EDP, Repeater
Godin, PRS, Crafter and Roland guitars
Center Point Stereo Spacestation V3

alexmcginness

to be honest I cant hear a difference in the first video. I can if I look at the video while listening but when I dont look its a coin toss. Both sound in tune to me. Theres a video I saw a couple of years back where they were a/b' ing  a Lexicon 480 and a software 480. In that comparison there was a subtle yet noticeable difference between the two when they switched back and forth...until...you listened to  the a/b without looking at the video. Then it was all guess work. 
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.

Brak(E)man

What's in tune anyway ?
equal temp
Just temp
guitar which is in somewhere in between Just and equal
Hijaz
etc etc

Isn't it all about what we are taught ?

There's only one way to make a guitar in tune in any temp
Don't fret  :o
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Elantric

The main information fully explained in the James Taylor video,

The main point is the physics of a vibrating guitar string.
Quoteguitar vibrations are not sine waves. That can clearly be seen in the video. If they were pure or nearly pure sine waves, they would sound very boring.

Agreed!


Immediately after the initial "pluck" , the string will be "sharp" - ( higher frequency), and goal of his described tuning method is to minimize this phenomena. As the vibrating string's energy decays, the pitch goes lower.
The pitch of a string vibration has a steady frequency only if the amplitude of the vibration is negligible to the length of the string. If it is not negligible, then the vibration causes an increased average tension in the string, and higher tension means higher pitch.


Andras Szalay (Axon / Fishman Tripleplay creator ) also covers this same aspect of all vibrating strings as one of the "hurdles" when doing low latency Guitar to MIDI with any accuracy
MIDI Guitar FAQ
http://www.panda-audio.com/midiguitar.php

QuoteUnintended pitch change of the sound.
When you pick a string, at the very beginning the pitch is always more or less higher than the intended pitch. I mean "intended pitch" here the pitch of the string as it is sustained for several seconds. This is where you tune the string to your reference. There are several physical reasons why the pitch at the very beginning is higher than the sustained value, sometimes by more than a semitone.
One of the reasons is well known in classical physics: the pitch of a string vibration has a steady frequency only if the amplitude of the vibration is negligible to the length of the string. If it is not negligible, then the vibration causes an increased average tension in the string, and higher tension means higher pitch. This effect depends on two factors:
the tension of the string: thin strings have lower tension for the same pitch, so can be played with much higher amplitude, thus the pitch deviation is higher as well.
the harder you pick, the higher is the deviation.
There is another reason for unintended high pitch in the attack. The short picking pulse that started from your pick is propagating towards the point where you fretted the string. However, if the pulse is large (you picked hard), and the string deviation is large (light gauge string), and the string height is low, then the pulse slightly hits the fret that is one higher than the one that you fretted, simply because the string is so close to this fret. This results a reflection from this fret that appears in the first vibration cycle as a one semitone higher note. This happens only in the very first cycle of the vibration, since the amplitude of the pulse gets very much smaller even by the second reflection.
It is of course natural, if you do not get this problem with a Roland, since it does not recognize pitch from the first cycle anyway. Also, it is good to know that if you turn the pick sensitivity to finger picking, it will skip recognition in the first cycle, so this problem will probably not happen. With this knowledge, here are some tips how to eliminate this problem:
First and most important: Even with a piano sound it is not necessary to play in Trigger mode. If you use Quantize to semitones then you get just as well quantized pitch like in trigger mode, but these glitches at the very beginning of the note will not be audible, if the synth has a good and fast response. Of course, this works really well only in MONO mode, on six MIDI channels.
Use medium or hard gauge strings, no light or extra light.
Adjust the string height to be as high as you can tolerate.
Play softly, do not pick hard.
Play with the tip of the plectrum, not with the flat part
Finger Picking Mode, if the slightly slower response does not hurt.

DeRigueur

Fender GC-1 -- Boss SY-1000 -- Alto TS112A

Elantric

QuoteDoes the Antares autotune fix this?

Yes - thats one issue the Antares ATG system addresses.


QuoteFirstly, that tuning method has been known for a long time and is just what the Buzz Feiten (sp?) system attempts to compensate for. In fact the Earvana nut compensates for it a whole lot better.
Personally, I find I get the best result by tuning the notes at the first fret, not the open strings. Same for setting intonation - set the intonation using the first fret and 13th fret notes. This eliminates much - but not all - of the compromise.

Earvana / Buzz Feiten  / Compensated Frets address a whole different aspect of the guitar

in this thread we are talking about how immediately after the initial "pluck" , the string will be "sharp" - ( higher frequency), and goal of James Taylor's described tuning method is to minimize this phenomena.

Brak(E)man

Normally a slightly sharp pitch is considered good in FI opera.
Having recorded , mix and mastered my experience with tenors
and other vocalists is that a sharp pitch gives in their view at least
a different timbre and a pleasant one at that.

I don't think that a fast guitar transient that's slightly high
will cause a out of tune experience , that said we're all different
and mysterious is the way of psycho acoustics
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Neardark72

Think this is the same on a different tuning or it has variations?
on Electric guitars?

It does make much sense. Having a long chord on seventh fret sounds a little out of tune while a A chords sounds dead on. I always thought that I had a tendency to bend accidentally the strings in some chords around those frets ... Been working on those for a while now, but still not satisfied with the vibrations I'm hearing. Will try this tuning during the weekend to see if this fix my problem.

Another very cool subject sustainiac. +1

Elantric

the phenomena of "Immediately after the initial "pluck" , the string will be "sharp" - ( higher frequency),"  impacts any  acoustic or electric  instrument with vibrating strings, any tuning , any scale length  -its physics 


Many  other factors impact ones ability to Play a fretted stringed instrument "in tune" 

If you have tall frets, or a scalloped fretboard, you must be mindful of the finger pressure you apply with your fretting hand and you must press the strings perpendicular without side pressure  - else you will be "sharp".  Same phenomena occurs when using a capo at the 5th fret  is set too tight on light gauge strings  - you get all strings "sharp" compared to a properly placed index finger bar chord 



Same issue exists when having a Luthier adjust your instrument's  Nut height or intonation at 12th fret without knowing your playing style. 

Chumly

I like the slightly aggressive nature of the initial attack being sharp and in fact sometimes I will purposefully hit the strings harder to emphasize that effect. As well, each fretted note can be adjusted ongoing to noodle with the pitch in real time as the chord decays thus changing beat frequencies, phase, etc. Adding the acoustic support of a nearby guitar amp make things even more interesting.
I think it's much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might be wrong. - Richard P. Feynman

Neardark72

Elantric, I think you made me understand what is my problem.
I use to have (for 20 years) a shitty axe, that I needed to press like hell on it to prevent not hearing the note.
Now I have 2 new decent guitars that have jumbo frets and plays like a charm.

So I guess that I need to press a lot less when I play aggressive rhythms. I'll try that. This weekend.

Elantric

QuoteElantric, I think you made me understand what is my problem.
I use to have (for 20 years) a shitty axe, that I needed to press like hell on it to prevent not hearing the note.
Now I have 2 new decent guitars that have jumbo frets and plays like a charm.

So I guess that I need to press a lot less when I play aggressive rhythms. I'll try that. This weekend.


90% of the problem with most guitars is the string height at the Nut, and proper truss rod adjustment and bridge height and intonation.

Also some cheap bulk "Musician's Gear" house brand strings ( 22 sets for $5) all wound wrong can contribute to a poor playing instrument


Must have book
https://www.amazon.com/Electric-Guitar-Great-Softcover-Player/dp/0879306017


whippinpost91850


lespauled

I wonder if the "SWEETENED" setting on my Peterson tuner is the same as this.   ???