Is the Gibson Digital Guitar initiative just gone, gone, gone?

Started by Rhcole, April 25, 2016, 10:19:02 PM

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vtgearhead

I wonder how many of Gibson and Fenders' woes are attributable to the staggering number of different models they offer?  Variety is always good for consumers, but from a manufacturer's point of view there are real costs involved in supporting 26 different Strat variants. 

Elantric

#26
Quote
The Nashville-based company, famous for its Les Paul guitar, has $1.2 billion in revenue annually, according to Moody's, and manufactures brands Gibson, Philips, Epiphone, Kramer, Baldwin, Onkyo, KRK and Stanton.

Henry figures he can continue paying peanuts to the global labor force, and rebound in the next few quarters

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibson_Guitar_Corporation
and I dont see Onkyo saving them

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TASCAM
QuoteIn 2013 Gibson Brands Inc. bought a majority stake in TEAC Corporation, the parent company of TASCAM.[2]
Tascam does have interesting gear
http://www.tascam.com/company/


QuoteIn 2003,[55] Gibson debuted its Ethernet-based[56] audio protocol, MaGIC, which it developed in partnership with 3COM, Advanced Micro Devices, and Xilinx.[55] Replacing traditional analog hook-ups with a digital connection that would, "...satisfy the unique requirements of live audio performances," may have been the goal of this project.[56] This system may require a special pickup,[55] but cabling is provided by a standard Cat-5 ethernet cable.[55][56]

Henry spent millions on CAT-5 Audio - but never shipped any system with Magic- except a few Les Paul Digital models

Peak Audio and Cirus Logic invented competing Cobranet
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CobraNet

and today that became the basis for the successful QSC Q-Lan(Q-Sys)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_over_IP


and he tried to revive Oberheim
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=downloads;sa=downfile&id=69

He purchased the A/V division of Royal Phillips ( after Funai defaulted)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philips



Although the bulk of Gibson customer base is dying out,  and much less motivated to pony up the funds for the top models


which sell at Grand Piano prices   

pasha811

Sad story. All the music world brands are in dire straits. I can't really say if it's people looking at music differently, not learning to play instruments anymore (we have DJ which is a different kind of artist) or the economic crisis or all of this at the same time but I can see around me that all the young bands forming are guitar based. That should increase the sales of Guitar, Amp & FX making companies but I guess it's also a price / market thing. In Italy were I live, there is an high turnover, lots of used gear that changes ownership but also new models that are not replaced when sold. The used gear market is alive. Many transactions among people not involving shops. Some shops value your used gear upfront a new model sale. All of those analyst talking too much about profits and numbers. 
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

Elantric

Quote from: pasha811 on August 24, 2017, 11:25:57 AM
Sad story. All the music world brands are in dire straits. I can't really say if it's people looking at music differently, not learning to play instruments anymore (we have DJ which is a different kind of artist) or the economic crisis or all of this at the same time but I can see around me that all the young bands forming are guitar based. That should increase the sales of Guitar, Amp & FX making companies but I guess it's also a price / market thing. In Italy were I live, there is an high turnover, lots of used gear that changes ownership but also new models that are not replaced when sold. The used gear market is alive. Many transactions among people not involving shops. Some shops value your used gear upfront a new model sale. All of those analyst talking too much about profits and numbers.


Because the future is like this  - no hardware - only software

chrish

I think it's also because the masses  expect musicians to work for very little money or free and expect recorded products for free.

The new ethic is file sharing other people's work, which is fine if that's what the creator of that content agrees to.

Folks like Napster set us up for the new ethic, which seems to be 'get away with what you can without regard for others.'

Elantric

Quote from: chrish on August 24, 2017, 02:40:36 PM
I think it's also because the masses  expect musicians to work for very little money or free and expect recorded products for free.

The new ethic is file sharing other people's work, which is fine if that's what the creator of that content agrees to.

Folks like Napster set us up for the new ethic, which seems to be 'get away with what you can without regard for others.'

Agreed - and explains why several old acts no longer playing golf at local country club, instead they are touring on the road each year - live concert tickets ( and T-Shirt Sales) pay the bills these days
http://wheremusicmeetsthesoul.com/canyon-agoura-hills/events/

http://www.mountainwinery.com/concerts



GuitarBuilder

Quote from: Elantric on August 24, 2017, 02:47:56 PM
Agreed - and explains why several old acts no longer playing golf at local country club, instead they are touring on the road each year - live concert tickets ( and T-Shirt Sales) pay the bills these days
http://wheremusicmeetsthesoul.com/canyon-agoura-hills/events/

http://www.mountainwinery.com/concerts

The good news is: you still need a guitar to play live!
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

Rhcole

Joined a band when I was 13- "The Epidemics". We wore white pants and yellow shirts when we played. My Vibro Champ could only reach people within about 15 feet of the stage. Beyond that, I might as well not have been playing at all.

You could get paid for gigs back then, and there were bands on every block practicing.
In High School, the best guitar players in the school were the subject of legend and open to serious challenge and debate. Jam sessions were sometimes like shootouts and perhaps less about listening.

For years after that you could hit the road and gig. Many great players made livings and never became household names.

It was a time and place probably never to be repeated. If it's gone, it's gone. Johnny Carson mourned the passing of big bands when he retired.

But, it was awesome and I got to experience it.

"My-my-my-my-my G-G-G-G-Generation" Pete Townshend




gumtown

The down side of mass production at low prices,
now everyone has a guitar, how can you expect to sell more.

Guitars are not like computers or consumer electronics,
where they have a life of 5 years, then are trashed into the recycle bin.

If Gibson were to have a new sales strategy to "trade in your old Gibson on a new one",
and send the old Gibson's to the crusher would be a fail.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Rhcole

"Trade in that old scuffed-up '58 Les Paul for a shiny, new Firebird X!!"

whippinpost91850

I recall those days so well I made my living for 20 years just gigging.  Now it's tough just finding 1 nighters just to keep giggin

vanceg

And yet all the bands I know and work with are making pretty much all their money from playing live....

Quote from: Rhcole on August 25, 2017, 04:28:44 PM
Joined a band when I was 13- "The Epidemics". We wore white pants and yellow shirts when we played. My Vibro Champ could only reach people within about 15 feet of the stage. Beyond that, I might as well not have been playing at all.

You could get paid for gigs back then, and there were bands on every block practicing.
In High School, the best guitar players in the school were the subject of legend and open to serious challenge and debate. Jam sessions were sometimes like shootouts and perhaps less about listening.

For years after that you could hit the road and gig. Many great players made livings and never became household names.

It was a time and place probably never to be repeated. If it's gone, it's gone. Johnny Carson mourned the passing of big bands when he retired.

But, it was awesome and I got to experience it.

"My-my-my-my-my G-G-G-G-Generation" Pete Townshend

chlorinemist

#38
Quote from: chrish on August 24, 2017, 02:40:36 PM
I think it's also because the masses  expect musicians to work for very little money or free and expect recorded products for free.

The new ethic is file sharing other people's work, which is fine if that's what the creator of that content agrees to.

Folks like Napster set us up for the new ethic, which seems to be 'get away with what you can without regard for others.'

All physical objects will be worthless to sell sooner or later... Everything will be replaced by digital recreations, one by one, until we get to the point where we're living in holodecks from birth to death. Physical music media just happened to be one of the first things to fall. There is no scarcity to justify the price of listening to music... And it's no surprise that the masses had no respect for the industry and had no problem with "stealing" it... The Telocommunications Act of 1996 consolidated control of virtually all popular music labels, venues, and radio station between 5 or 6 soulless corporations that came together to completely saturate our ears with the most mindless, braincell killing music possible. feeding us a nonstop diet of britney spears, nsync, limp bizkit, eminem, christina aguilera... The industry, usurped by corporations, no longer had any respect for its customers and people were PISSED. That's why Woodstock 1999 ended in flames.

Now the industry has turned upside down. Artists build themselves up via grassroots selfpromotion (made infinitely more possible by the internet) instead of relying on funding from major labels that 9 times out of ten never end up paying their artists, and more often than not actually leave their artists deeply in debt. That's the bright side of the whole situation: 15-20 years ago, you needed to spend 10s of thousands of dollars to buy studio time to record an album. You had to go into debt and take on a huge risk. Today, we have studios in our bedrooms. I've never spent a cent on pro studio time, never needed it... If I put out an album and it doesnt go platinum, my life wont be ruined. But yeah, I will also have to be a lot more creative when it comes to the hustle of turning music into money as well.

whippinpost91850

There are probably a dozen bands or less  in all of Metro Detroit, Making a living playing music... DJ's are doing great though

GuitarBuilder

Quote from: chlorinemist on August 26, 2017, 02:27:34 AM
Now the industry has turned upside down. Artists build themselves up via grassroots selfpromotion (made infinitely more possible by the internet) instead of relying on funding from major labels that 9 times out of ten never end up paying their artists, and more often than not actually leave their artists deeply in debt. That's the bright side of the whole situation: 15-20 years ago, you needed to spend 10s of thousands of dollars to buy studio time to record an album. You had to go into debt and take on a huge risk. Today, we have studios in our bedrooms. I've never spent a cent on pro studio time, never needed it... If I put out an album and it doesnt go platinum, my life wont be ruined. But yeah, I will also have to be a lot more creative when it comes to the hustle of turning music into money as well.

The down side is that there's infinitely more crap "music" being put out by self-proclaimed "artists" who would have been filtered out by the labels in the past.  That makes discovering new, good musicians a signal-to-noise- exercise!
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

admin

#41
Quote from: GuitarBuilder on August 26, 2017, 07:18:55 AM
The down side is that there's infinitely more crap "music" being put out by self-proclaimed "artists" who would have been filtered out by the labels in the past.  That makes discovering new, good musicians a signal-to-noise- exercise!

Unfortunately it  still can't compete with the "far more , infinitely more crap "music" being put out by  the major labels these days

Only time  listen to traditional radio is at my dentist on headphones -which I'm sure reinforces the pain

whippinpost91850

Quote from: GuitarBuilder on August 26, 2017, 07:18:55 AM
The down side is that there's infinitely more crap "music" being put out by self-proclaimed "artists" who would have been filtered out by the labels in the past.  That makes discovering new, good musicians a signal-to-noise- exercise!

Good Point and oh so true !!!!!!!!!

pasha811

Quote from: admsustainiac on August 26, 2017, 07:41:55 AM
Unfortunately it  still can't compete with the "far more , infinitely more crap "music" being put out by  the major labels these days

Only time  listen to traditional radio is at my dentist on headphones -which I'm sure reinforces the pain

I don't want to be a Customer of your Dentist... :-)
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

aliensporebomb

Part of it is right now Gibson is in the news for having really shaky financials.  I think we'll see some fire sales on certain products soon but they still won't be affordable.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Rhcole

This is what I think:

Fender will work out its problems and keep chugging along. They seem to be better managed overall although they overbuilt and acquired serious debt themselves. They may downsize and lay people off if the market continues to decline, but they seem pretty pragmatic and even in their practices.

Gibson, though- Henry J. is talented for sure, but he appears to manage with a narcissistic style that inevitably leads to explosions when things go seriously wrong. That is the danger with those kinds of leaders: when they are right they are considered brilliant geniuses because the world loves them and they bask in the glow. But, when they are wrong they double, triple, and quadruple down on losing strategies because being wrong is worse to them then simply quietly cutting out a losing position.

The outcome may not be pretty.


Tony Raven

Time & again, investors look at a music-gear company, & begin thinking how easy it'd be to turn it into a fabulous cash cow simply by instituting the same gimmicks from general manufacturing: outsource; replace skilled craftspeople with minimum-wage workers fresh off the street; make "invisible" cuts to quality & technique & materials; economies of scale.

Look at what CBS did to Fender... yet after CBS was gone, the company did nothing to revert, realizing that players had been so brainwashed that many (most?) had no idea what a Strat ought to play like -- they were buying the myth, the legacy, the heritage rather than anything like a true '50s Strat, & at premium prices.

Heck, I've built transit buses for 11 years, & we see the fads & razzle-dazzle come & go all the time. When it comes down to it, we turn out reliable vehicles because there's a core group of workers who prefer to do the best work they can, to keep half an eye on quality at all times, to raise hell when something slipshod gets waved through. Problem is, those workers (me included) are getting old & tired & beat up by life. Meantime, the company is happy to keep skating rather than get us motivated younger workers who we can brainwash ;) & is about to run smack up against a labor shortage in the region -- we're already to the point of mostly getting recruits that no other company wants.

(A major difference between a transit bus & a guitar is that the bus will eventually be scrapped after ~1,000,000 miles, because it'd cost MUCH more to refurbish the thing than to buy a new one.)

I'm a fan of Washburn guitars. Rudy Schlacher built the company almost single-handed from 1977 to 2009. Under his reign, one of Washburn's habits was to order guitars (most of their catalogue being import) in runs of 200. Sure, this cut into the savings that could be had by cranking 'em out in runs of 1,000 or 5,000... but those savings are marginal at best, & unless sales are all but guaranteed will quickly be eaten up by warehousing, returns, & liquidation. If the 200 don't catch on, don't reorder, drop it from the lists. (It's a model used in book publishing all the time.) When you get down to the last few, clear them out to World Music Supply at cost or even less. Offer to do "special editions" for the major retailers, cash up front, no returns, & drop-ship direct from the factory.

A sharp trader could make some quick bucks by snagging closeouts, waiting a few months, & selling online to players who'd been intending to buy but assumed that it'd be perpetual "open stock" as with every other major brand.

FWIW, Schlacher sold out, the new owners thought they knew better how to squeeze more profit, & this damn near tanked the brand.

Has anyone gone to the Gibson site & counted how many "Les Paul" models are available? I tried once; made my head hurt. Fender isn't much better with the proliferation of Stratocasters. Factor in Epiphone/Squier & it gets really crazy. Apparently, most buyers choose on the basis of color & fancy-sounding hardware rather than how well it plays. I suspect there's thousands of near-mint "collectible" guitars on the market with twisted or warped necks; I've certainly seen them entirely unintonated & with near-unplayable nut heights & trussrod tension -- they're fashion statement & investments, NOT instruments.

admin

QuoteI've certainly seen them entirely unintonated & with near-unplayable nut heights & trussrod tension
You just described every Peavey AT200 Autotune guitar ive ever seen & played
those were just complete junk and I swear the people building them were told by their supervisor

"Just String it and ship it - don't bother about intonation - our customer  will use the Antares ATG system to take care of all that "

chlorinemist

Wood is overrated. If Gibson switched to carbon fibre (launching it upon acquisition of Steinberger wouldve been a great time) their instruments would be unbreakable and there'd be no issues with weather-induced warping. It'd be easier to manufacture instruments that have virtually identical, precisely repeatable dimensions every time.

Instead they bought Steinberger and phased out the carbon fibre models...

admin

#49
Old story June 2015

--

https://www.forbes.com/sites/hughmcintyre/2015/06/16/gibson-guitars-40-million-11-year-tech-gamble/#737cb9e11235

Gibson Guitars' $40 Million, 11 Year Tech Gamble


   

Hugh McIntyre , CONTRIBUTOR
I write about the music industry, from tech to charts and more.
Opinions expressed by Forbes Contributors are their own.
Sometimes a brand has so much history on their side it can begin to hurt them. While nobody wants to let go of a legacy, clutching too tightly could quickly give the appearance of being outdated, and that's the easiest way to turn the up-and-coming millennial demographic off.

Gibson guitars, the legendary crafters of some of the finest instruments to ever create rock and roll (including the iconic Les Paul), is having just such a problem. An aficionado might tell you that plenty has changed over the years in the world of guitars, but much of it is cosmetic. The company's CEO, Henry Juszkiewicz, was very open about how little his company's core product has evolved, especially when compared to music itself, which seems to go in a million new directions every day.

"The industry hasn't changed in 50 years. That's a lifetime!"


In order to move forward, innovations had to be made, and $40 million and 11 years later, a "major" change is here.

From 2015 onwards, all Gibson guitars will come equipped with what is perhaps the smartest tuning meter (what most people would call a tuner) ever created. Positioned on the outside of the instrument near the head, the new device only needs a few seconds to perfectly tune the strings on the guitar, which makes it something of a small revolution.

While they were originally planning on altering the inside of their instruments, adding all kinds of tech into the interiors of guitars, their research showed them that true fans simply would not have it. Not only could it slightly alter the music, but people were worried it would become outdated (as tech seems to at a rapidly increasing rate), thus making their expensive purchases equally as outdated. The company settled, placing the new feature on the exterior, which plenty in the industry (and what seems like guitar enthusiasts everywhere) still think of as sacrilegious.

So, why did it cost so much? Well, there was the years of research and development that went into creating what may very well be the world's most sophisticated tuning meter. In fact, even after the meter had been created, the company had to spend time working on an entirely new manufacturing process, as the system they were using could not produce enough of these smart tuners in a timely manner. The production is more precise and unlike anything Gibson has done before, but then again this entire step is unlike the brand best known for maintaining their place in history.

Some may be upset about this addition, but it also makes a lot of sense for a brand that's looking to attract a new, young audience. Getting the tuning correct every time you pick up a guitar is a serious barrier to entry for those just getting started, and with Gibson already being on the pricier side as guitars go, anything that makes the product easier to use for a wider range of people is surely a good idea.

As for all that uproar? Juszkiewicz says that the firm will sit back and take it, as any true innovator should. In time, after seeing how effective the product is, people will come around and that massive investment will all be worth it...they hope.