OSX Native AVB Question

Started by autodidactic, September 23, 2015, 06:33:25 PM

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autodidactic

Has anybody tried the native AVB implementation in OSX? I was wondering if it was possible to use 2 macs on the same wired LAN as AVB end points. Specifically, to have my macbook (with USB interface) be able to pass the audio to my desktop mac in another room. I'd try this myself but my macbook has Snow Leopard installed, and wanted to know if it would be worth the effort and expense of wiping it and installing Lion.
1965 Gibson J45
1979 Gibson ES347
90's Epiphone Joe Pass
80's Yamaha Classical
Bouzouki by Dekavalas

autodidactic

#1
DISCLAIMER: I am not an AVB expert. I'm just some muso that likes to tinker with computers so please take anything I post about AVB with a grain of salt. Also, please correct anything I post here and I will happily edit my post. If the thread takes off I'll consolidate the info into the first post of this thread.

Ok, so I went down the AVB rabbit hole. This is what I've found out so far.

HARDWARE:
With regards to OSX, it does have native AVB support IF you have the right hardware. AVB is an extension of the ethernet spec and all the extra stuff relies on certain hardware capabilities of the NIC (Network Interface Card). In general what you will need for an AVB capable LAN are:


  • compatible bridges (aka switches)
  • compatible talkers (send)
  • compatible listeners (receive)

BRIDGES AKA SWITCHES:
If you want to turn your existing LAN (including the consumer devices on it) into an AVB network, you will need a bridge. However AVB also supports daisy chaining so depending on your setup (basically everything in the chain is AVB compatible), you might be able to do without a bridge.

COMPUTERS:
Macs with thunderbolt ports are guaranteed to work. I have a Core2Duo black Macbook and the AVB utilities in OSX don't see the NIC as an AVB capable interface so I'm SOL with the Macbook. On the PC side I've found out that Intel sells a server NIC that has AVB support. It's the I210 PCIe adapter. It costs about $70-$80 USD. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833106178 . If anybody has any further info about AVB on Windows, please feel free to reply. I don't have a Windows box right now so I have no experience to share in this area.

SOFTWARE:
If you have an older Mac, AVB is natively built into OSX from 10.7 and up. From 10.9 and up it's enabled by default, but in 10.7 and 10.8, AVB needs to be manually enabled via the avbdeviced terminal command. For more details, RTFM (type "man avbddeviced" into terminal and it will present you with a manual).

OPEN SOURCE:
AVB is an open standard, but it does have some specific hardware requirements from the NIC. Due to the slim list of supported hardware, not many open source developers have worked on implementing it so far. There are some example applications on github but a lot of it is for embedded systems. Somebody has to port the examples to x86 based operating systems. The only X86 operating system that I know of that has AVB baked in is OSX.


DANTE vs AVB:
Dante seems to have taken off in the audio world but it's not entirely a competing protocol. Audinate (the developers of Dante) have said that Dante will remain compatible with AVB. So in theory, your Dante devices should be able to participate in your AVB network. I'm not personally aware of anybody with a mixed setup so I can't comment on how true the interoperability claim is. Currently Dante requires a Dante audio interface on the LAN. Computers with regular ethernet ports can get USB like performance via Audinate's software Dante Virtual Soundcard (DVS) which costs $30 per machine. Audinate has advertised a new Dante based product called Dante Via. This looks really interesting because it eliminates the requirement of DVS and for a Dante audio interface to be on the LAN. I haven't read much about the latency of Dante Via so there's that to consider. Also Dante Via was originally scheduled for release Q4 2014 and still isn't available. No word on price so far either.

OTHER OPEN ALTERNATIVES FOR AUDIO OVER ETHERNET:
The other option is the JACK audio connection kit. JACK is basically the ASIO/CoreAudio equivalent for open source operating systems like Linux. While JACK's main development platform is Linux, there are ports to OSX, Windows as well as the BSDs. Based on the downloads page on www.JackAudio.org, it seems Windows 7 and OSX 10.6 are the newest supported releases of commercial desktop operating systems. JACK supports audio over network via it's netjack feature. There isn't a lot of information online about how well netjack works. Based on what I've read in online forums, it is possible to get good performance. Some even reported stellar performance when tweaking the LAN settings by doing things like assigning only static ip addresses etc. However as with most things, YMMV 

FUTURE:
AVB has been renamed to TSN (Time Sensitive Networks). This rebranding seems to be in an effort to garner wider adoption, specifically outside of media production. In addition to the Audio/Video applications, TSN is being adopted in more industrial settings that require precise timing eg. automotive industry.
1965 Gibson J45
1979 Gibson ES347
90's Epiphone Joe Pass
80's Yamaha Classical
Bouzouki by Dekavalas

Elantric

#2
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=10349.msg74592#msg74592

AVnu Alliance tests and certifies devices for interoperability, providing a simple and reliable networking solution for AV network implementation based on the Audio Video Bridging (AVB) standards.
http://www.avnu.org/



http://avnu.org/certified-products/

http://avnu.org/knowledgebase/
http://avnu.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/AVnu-Pro__White-Paper.pdf


http://www.xmos.com/applications/audio/high-resolution

autodidactic

#3
Thanks for the links! That white paper is really informative! FYI, that roundtable link is broken. All the available info for AVB is great but it tends to be really low level and OEM/developer focused. There are very few practical guides for end users other than a couple of keynotes by MOTU. I have yet to see one for example that details how to send 8 channels of audio from one PC to another.
1965 Gibson J45
1979 Gibson ES347
90's Epiphone Joe Pass
80's Yamaha Classical
Bouzouki by Dekavalas

Elantric

#4
Remember Apple did NOT invent this

Just google

"IEEE 802.1 Audio Video Bridging (AVB)"
http://bfy.tw/2CC2

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_Video_Bridging

http://avnu.org/faqs/
FAQS

What is the AVnu Alliance and its Mission?

The AVnu Alliance is a community creating an interoperable ecosystem of low-latency, time-synchronized, highly reliable synchronized networked devices using open standards through certification.

AVnu Alliance members include more than 95% of the Ethernet silicon suppliers in the market, leading players in the networking infrastructure space, household names from the automotive industry and prominent firms in audio-visual markets.

AVnu Alliance facilitates a new certified networking ecosystem and simplifies network synchronization for engineers through Audio Video Bridging (AVB) and Time Synchronized Networking (TSN) standards, built into Ethernet, not around it; solving major technical and performance issues such as: precise timing and real-time synchronization, bandwidth reservation, and traffic shaping all while reducing the total cost of ownership by minimizing deployment and maintenance time.

The Alliance is focused on applications of these technologies in the Automotive, Professional A/V, Industrial and Consumer Electronics markets.

What is deterministic networking?

Deterministic networking is required in a wide range of current and next-generation connectivity applications that need a network that behaves in a predictable fashion. Deterministic networking is made up of two vital technologies: Bounded latency and precise timing/synchronization. Examples of deterministic networking include:

Media networking. Networks that convey audio and video information need to stick to strict timing rules and require predictable or bounded latency. If an audio or video packet arrives late to its destination, the receiving device (for instance a video screen or speaker) has no data to present. In practice this might mean a dropped frame of video, an unwanted audio artifact such as a pop or silence.
Precise timing is needed to enable audio data to be presented from different speakers with a known phase relationship, and synchronization between video and related audio streams.

Control networking. Control networks need to accept inputs from sensors, perform control loop processing, and initiate actions in response. Such actions (for example controlling a networked industrial machine or a conveyor belt) are highly time-sensitive. They require deterministic network delays with low-jitter input and output sampling, to create a control system that behaves predictably.
Safety-critical networks. Deterministic networks often need to implement redundancy, so that if one part of the network fails, the system can still function robustly and safely. This is an important part of deterministic networking.
Mixed media networks. Deterministic networks need to be able to differentiate between data with varying levels of timing-sensitivity and priority. This is important in an environment such as a vehicle, where auto makers would like to be able to use a single network infrastructure for all communications – such as climate control, infotainment, body electronics or driver assistance.
The IEEE AVB/TSN base standards enable deterministic networking as the foundational technology that can satisfy the common needs of these diverse and demanding applications.

What is AVB?

Audio Video Bridging (AVB) replaces both the physical complexity of analog cables and the network complexity of earlier proprietary solutions with an open, standards based approach that enables interoperable platforms to offer more affordable and better market solutions.

AVB is an evolution of standard Ethernet and other compatible media, such as wireless LAN, to add support for real-time audio video and control applications. It is the common name for the set of technical standards developed by the IEEE 802.1 Audio Video Bridging Task Group. AVB standards add capabilities to the Ethernet network providing three major enhancements:

Precise timing to support low-jitter media clocks and accurate synchronization of multiple streams.
A simple reservation protocol that allows an application on an endpoint device to notify the various network elements in a path so that they can reserve the resources necessary to support a particular stream.
Queuing and forwarding rules that ensure that such a stream will pass through the network within the delay specified by the reservation.

What is TSN?

Time Sensitive Networking is the evolution of AVB, building upon the AVB specifications to expand the range, functionality and applications of the standard. AVB is continuously evolving for new demanding applications and markets that are increasing interest in the technology. TSN is the new name for the same IEEE 802.1 Task Group, which developed AVB. The Time Sensitive Networking set of standards will be backwards compatible with AVB, but add new features and enhancements as part of the standard.

AVnu Alliance has the job of guiding what is needed from this specification for new applications in automotive and industrial segments and simplifying the process for engineers and designers to build products utilizing TSN. Some of the new key features in TSN include added fault tolerance and redundancy, and further improvements in time sensitive scheduling and latency control to AVB/TSN networks. AVB / TSN standard is an upgrade to existing networks (wireless and wired) – representing the synchronization and bandwidth layer for time critical applications. AVB and TSN can complement other existing and emerging specifications and standards.

How does AVB and TSN relate to other protocols and standards?

The IEEE AVB/TSN standards define how a network (primarily Ethernet networks) should be made timing-aware. AVB/TSN are not communications protocols, but – like other capabilities such as VLAN and Power over Ethernet – they are core network capabilities that can be used by any (open or proprietary) communications system that needs them. When you buy an Ethernet chip, it just has this capability.

These foundational standards facilitate a broad-range of higher-layer communications technologies, all in a timing-aware environment. So the user can still choose the most appropriate transport layer, data encapsulation format and enumeration and discovery techniques for their application, all within a timing-aware framework.

How does AVnu Certification work?

The AVnu Alliance defined a procedure which may then be used to certify products to the AVnu-certification based IEEE standards. Before certification can be achieved, AVnu Alliance defines the market specific requirements and develops the conformance and interoperability test plans as well as the testing procedures. The test house produces detailed reports and data that are fed back to the manufacturers to help address any issues they may have. Once deficiencies have been satisfactorily resolved and the product has passed the testing procedures, the test report and certification application can be submitted to AVnu Alliance for formal approval and the ability to use the AVnu-Certified logo.

Conformance and Interoperability (C&I) testing is extremely detailed and thorough but most tests can be performed in-house by the vendor before submitting for testing and certification. Once a product has been submitted to AVnu Alliance's approved test house, the University of New Hampshire – InterOperability Lab (UNH-IOL) for testing, the product is subjected to tests that have been built by AVnu Alliance and are based on the IEEE 802.1 AVB/TSN standards. AVnu Alliance members can replicate a full testing bed with the testing suite from UNH-IOL to use to test products in-house before submitting for certification.

Any member can submit a product for AVnu-certification testing.

Why should you join AVnu Alliance as a promoter member before you've developed products with AVB/TSN?

The Alliance has developed a rich set of tools to help its members develop AVB/TSN products. When you join AVnu Alliance, you can make sure you are engineering the right requirements into your products. Your membership allows you to participate in developing the market requirements and test plans so that your products are ready for certification without re-engineering. You can also get real-time updates on specification changes. AVnu Alliance members are given a rich set of tools to help you build your AVB/TSN products to the specifications, test devices and accelerate product development before entering the formal testing program.

Also, AVnu Alliance membership gives you the opportunity to collaborate with fellow Alliance members to develop a complete ecosystem of interoperable devices. Membership gives you the chance to network and consult with time sensitive application experts and engineers and get tips and best practices for implementation.

By participating in the workgroups you can help ensure that the AVB/TSN compliance program meets the demanding performance benchmarks for your market and influence technical specifications. The AVnu members work together to define AVnu certification, ensuring that AVB/TSN is easy to implement and has broad global market appeal.

How can I become a member of AVnu Alliance?

Anyone is eligible to join the AVnu Alliance. See the "become a member" page for membership information.

Where can I get more information about AVnu Alliance?

The AVnu Alliance website www.avnu.org includes a broad range of technology and market-specific white papers as well as links to standards organizations.
















autodidactic

Quote from: Elantric on October 08, 2015, 03:14:23 PM
Remember Apple did NOT invent this

Just google

"IEEE 802.1 Audio Video Bridging (AVB)"

I am aware that Apple didn't invent AVB and as my second post in this thread suggests. Also I've already done quite a bit of searching with Google.

Perhaps I should explain myself better. My use case is as follows. I have a main workstation running OSX 10.10 Yosemite and a brand new Behringer XR18 audio interface (which is fantastic btw). My room is quite small and my computer somewhat noisy so I thought I could leverage my wired home LAN via AVB. The goal being to attach the XR18 to a computer in the living room and have that computer forward the audio streams via AVB to my DAW. This in theory would mean simply figuring out how to get computer A and B to see each other and exchange data. This turned out to be not so straight forward. As a matter of fact, I think it was that same video you posted with the person setting up an XMOS AVB device on OSX that led to me to search how to get AVB support on my Macbook.

The most basic use case for the ethernet protocol is to connect two computers and let them talk to each other. In theory, AVB does support this via daisy chaining but I have yet to find a clear tutorial describing how to do this. I'm assuming that I could probably do it quite easily with 2 thunderbolt equipped Macs but unfortunately, other than my main machine I only have access to 2 old Macbooks. Even if I installed Windows on them, the NICs aren't AVB compatible. What I wanted to do didn't work and the reasons why weren't obvious. This is why I posted all that info. Maybe it might save somebody else a lot of grief. Conversely it could also potentially open a door. Most documentation for AVB audio devices say they only support OSX 10.9 and up. If they enable AVB on their mac via avbdeviced, they might save themselves the cost of a computer upgrade.
1965 Gibson J45
1979 Gibson ES347
90's Epiphone Joe Pass
80's Yamaha Classical
Bouzouki by Dekavalas

Elantric

Thanks for sharing your real use experience and info on need for recent Mac hardware to make it fly.

fokof

#7
From MOTU FAQ :

"Q: I need a stage I/O box and I need to be able to record to multiple computers. Can I do those jobs with the MOTU AVB system?

A: Yes. The MOTU AVB system is a state-of-the-art stage I/O system. Multiple interfaces can be connected with up to 512 channels of I/O. The entire system, including preamp gain, phantom power, effects, routing and mixing can be controlled remotely. System control can be accessed from Mac, Windows, Linux, Android, and iOS. Multiple control points can be used simultaneously.

At the same time, the system can be patched into a computer for recording and playback. The Thunderbolt connection supports up to 256 channels of computer I/O (128 in and 128 out). USB supports up to 128 channels (64 in and 64 out at 44.1 or 48 kHz). Multiple computers can be connected to the AVB network, through any available interface, for redundant recording/backup systems. "


Headsup : Behringer use their own proprietary protocol , not AVB compatible.

Mac : needs 10.10 and up