GR-55 - LUTE

Started by maxh, April 10, 2015, 11:19:18 AM

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maxh

Hi, this is my first time I'm actively using such a forum, so please, if I did something wrong, please be lenient with me ...

Ok, so, what I'm looking for is a patch that let's my Godin Multiac sound like a medieval Lute. Has anyone an idea of how to accomplish that, or is there eventually already such a patch out there ??
Godin Multiac SA Nylon; Fishman SA220;

Elantric

#1
Welcome


Here is one GR-55 Lute patch
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=11458.msg83397#msg83397

Use advanced search to locate others
Click link below to view Advanced Search  in action

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=vguitarforums%3A+GR-55+Lute

maxh

#2
I haven't been online for a while ...  thanks very much for your links.

OK, now downloaded and tried it. That patch sounds nice, but I did mean the sound of a LUTE, the instrument from the medieval times. That patch you recommended is named 'Giant's Lute', but has nothing to do with the sound of a Lute, sorry.

When you go to edit the patch, you see that it's a combination of 178 12-str Guitar, 171 Folk Gitr 3 and 15 AC Reso.

So, my impression as a beginner is, that one can only combine existing instruments (PCM1, PCM2, Model and Normal Pickup) to create new sounds.

But, how would a new Instrument like the Lute be implemented as a selectable in PCM1 or PCM2 ??

Can that only be provided by Roland ?

Godin Multiac SA Nylon; Fishman SA220;

Elantric

Post a link to the type of Lute you seek?

maxh

#4
This is an example of what I'm looking for:
Godin Multiac SA Nylon; Fishman SA220;

Mrchevy

Try the Ukelele in the pcm list. It sounds similar and with some tweaking should get it pretty close. a little eq, effects, etc.
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And, a lot of stuff I DON'T need

sine_3000

#6
Are you looking for a COSM tone or a PCM tone?  The COSM nylon might be able to be tweaked to suit you?

DreamTheory

Quote from: maxh on April 19, 2015, 11:51:05 AM
I haven't been online for a while ...  thanks very much for your links.

OK, now downloaded and tried it. That patch sounds nice, but I did mean the sound of a LUTE, the instrument from the medieval times. That patch you recommended is named 'Giant's Lute', but has nothing to do with the sound of a Lute, sorry.

Haha! I made "Giant's Lute" for a Jack and the Beanstalk story thing I was doing. It has a ridiculously huge range, like 7 octaves. It was one of my early patches, not the best, but fun for its extremities.

To make a proper lute, use the nylon model. Mess with resonance and body size parameters, add reverb. Research the tuning of the lute you want to create, create an alternate tuning.

PCM plucked/stroked tones trigger funny but are not useless in all cases. I would have them there as optional.

If I get time I'll make you one. Any prticular country/century lute you have in mind?
electric: Epiphone Dot semihollow body, acoustic: mahogany jumbo, recording: Cubase Artist 11 or Tascam DP008

maxh

Hey thanks for all your answers, I think I have a lot of tinkering to do now ... I also wrote an email to roland and requested such a sound as a PCM tone. They said it's a lot of work and complicated and blah and didn't promise anything ... will see.

If anyone of you guys with more experience than I have feels the urge to develop such a sound ;-)) it would be greatly appreciated !!!

I posted an example of what I would like to have in a post above.

greetings

Max
Godin Multiac SA Nylon; Fishman SA220;

maxh

Quote from: sine_3000 on April 20, 2015, 06:03:00 AM
Are you looking for a COSM tone or a PCM tone?  The COSM nylon might be able to be tweaked to suit you?
To be honest, I have no clue what's better, I thougt of a PCM tone, but if it is possible to do with a COSM tone, I wouldn't care.
Godin Multiac SA Nylon; Fishman SA220;

maxh

Quote from: Mrchevy on April 20, 2015, 05:45:37 AM
Try the Ukelele in the pcm list. It sounds similar and with some tweaking should get it pretty close. a little eq, effects, etc.
Will definiteliy try it, thanks
Godin Multiac SA Nylon; Fishman SA220;

maxh

Quote from: Dream_Theory on April 21, 2015, 06:14:36 PM
... If I get time I'll make you one. Any prticular country/century lute you have in mind?
That would be so great, the example I posted above is exactly what I'm looking for. The tuning should be a normal guitar tuning ... hope you have a lot of time ... ;-))

Godin Multiac SA Nylon; Fishman SA220;

DreamTheory

#12
OK here is my best shot at a lute patch. I have set it up so you can use it 3 ways to suit your taste/needs. But first...

You will need to go into EDIT, then page right to SYSTEM, arrow key right to PEDAL/GK CTL, hit ENTER, page right over to VOL, and, if it does not say PATCH SETTING, turn the jog wheel until it does. Hit exit twice to back out.

What this does is enables the knob on the GK-3 pickup to control whatever the patch tells it to. In this case, it will control  PCM Tone 2.

So, here are the 3 ways to use this patch:

1) Start with the model. Turn down the GK Vol and back off the pedal all the way. engage the CTL button. What you will hear is the nylon model, with body and attack jacked up and tone all the way down. To me a lute is a mild instrument. Now to add some "ting," gradually increase the expression pedal. To add some resonation, use the GK vol. The model works best for strumming, so if you are strumming and exp[eriencing latency annoyances, pull back the pedal.

2) Start with PCM 1 (Folk Guitar). I killed the sustain. I only wanted to capture the attack of the note for its lute like quality. If it sounds too plunky, mix in PCM 2 with GK Vol for the resonation.

3) Start with PCM 2 (Nylon Guitar). This one has a very slight pitch shift (-1) to give it some depth without sounding chorused or detuned. A lute is an acoustic instrument and will have complex properties to the way it sounds, so to approximate that we should take advantage of the subtleties GR-55 has to offer. If you want to try detuninig it more you can (EDIT-TONE-highlight PCM2-ENTER, scroll down to PITCH SHIFT FINE), I was going for subliminal here. This one also has muted sustain, as well as a low pass filter (you can change that if you think the bass is too strong). So you can start with this side, and gradually blend in the PCM 1 and/or engage the model with CTL.

I made it so the pedal and GK vol set about 1/2 way should work, but you have room to move either way.

I used the "Stairway test" as I call it when designing acoustic patches. Stairway to Heaven has a finger picked part and a strummed part. PCM tones can sound great picked (play clean!) but really flub up on strumming due to latency. So... when playing the intro, step on the pedal more, when strumming, pull back to make the PCM come in "underneath" the model. You can add more headroom to the model just by turning up your Output Volume knob on the unit, or turning up the models TONE LEVEL on the EDIT screen.

We cannot make things sound as good as real, or perform perfectly. There are always workarounds. We are illusionists. It is a composite thing, and must be coaxed. Cheaper then buying a lute! You can make a lute-like patch, something suggestive of lute, something that will work for lute in a mix, but it won't rival or replace a real lute. The Nylon model by itself will give you perfect zero latency response if you need to do something like an extended Bach solo piece. If you are doing a more limited role, give those PCM tones a try, at least a little underneath the model.

Thanks for this challenge. I thought the Guitar PCM tones were utterly  useless until now.

PS- for experimentation try switching on Normal Pickups in the EDIT screen or engaging 12 string mode in the model menu.

PSS- I forgot that lute is pitched higher overall. Either slap on a capo, 3rd fret, or go in and PITCH SHIFT the PCM tones and MODEL up +3. If you do that you cannot use 12 string mode.
electric: Epiphone Dot semihollow body, acoustic: mahogany jumbo, recording: Cubase Artist 11 or Tascam DP008

DreamTheory

#13
Quote from: maxh on April 26, 2015, 09:59:39 AM
That would be so great, the example I posted above is exactly what I'm looking for. The tuning should be a normal guitar tuning ... hope you have a lot of time ... ;-))

Out of curiosity, I looked up lute tuning. It's a somewhat complicated matter, as they were made in various times and places with different numbers of strings and so on. The short answer is if you are playing typical lute tabulature, just tune the g string down to f#.

The GR-55, having 12 string mode, however, gives us the chance to emulate the 6 course (11 string) lute, which has octaves on the lower courses, unison on the middle courses, and one single string on top (called the chantrelle). Apparently there were variations, but let's go with this. It is tuned in G, so the six strings from low to high would be:

Gg Cc Ff aa dd g or, in pitch shift terms (half steps) from low (6) to high (1): +3/+15, +3/+15, +3/+15, +2/+2, +3/+3, +3. But how to do this on GR-55? Well... You cannot really get 11 strings, because if you turn down a string, the companion string goes with it. So you can make, 8,10, and 12 stringed instruments but not 7,9, or 11.

For traditional lute tuning (to play lute tabs):
Edit/highlight model- Enter/ turn 12 String switch on
                             - SHIFT strings 1-6 at 0,0,-1,+12, +12, +12
Edit/highlight PCM 1- PITCH SHIFT strings 1-6 at 0,0,0,-1,0,0
Edit/highlight PCM 2- PITCH SHIFT strings 1-6 at 0,0,0,-1,0,0
Play with capo on 3rd fret to get it in G, because you cannot change the pitch of the direct strings in 12 string mode.

....Or... If you want the convenience of playing in standard guitar tuning, you could still raise everything up +3 (virtual capo) to sound more lute-like by doing this: EDIT-MASTER-OTHER-ALT TUNING- USER- set values. You cannot use 12 string mode when ALT TUN is enabled. This will adjust PCM tones and model.

... Or ... 6 course lute in standard guitar tuning
Edit/highlight model- Enter/turn 12 String switch on
                             - SHIFT strings 1-6 at 0,0,0,+12, +12, +12
                             - slightly (+1) raise FINE setting of strings 4 and 5 (simulates intonation different gauges)
Play with capo on 3rd fret to get it in G, since you cannot change the pitch of the direct strings in 12 string mode.

but, after testing 12 string mode, I prefer the sound without the 12 string on. In a way the PCM tones already play the role of the extra strings. The 12 string mode makes it sound a bit tonally busy, and lute music is fairly sparse. A capo may actually be better because it is easy to take it off if you want to. I suppose you could assign CTL to pitch shift. It all depends on how you want to use it.

finger plucking is best, and a very subtle palm mute to keep the model from sustaining too long. The lute tone has almost no sustain, but the plunk resonates a lot in that deep body, like reverb (which is why I put so much reverb on there).

I had fun playing Greensleeves and inventing variations.

PS- in the PCM tones, make sure the chromatic switch is ON. I might have forgotten that.
electric: Epiphone Dot semihollow body, acoustic: mahogany jumbo, recording: Cubase Artist 11 or Tascam DP008