Internal Clipping: The achilles heel of modellers

Started by amplayer, March 03, 2014, 08:59:38 AM

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amplayer

As many have attested to on this forum (and many other places), it's hard to get a great sound out of modelling units.
Many guitarists just want to plug into a Fender Twin or a Marhsall or Boogie and be done with it.
Going straight to a great tube amp gives you great tone whether clean or very dirty, or anywhere between.
I get that.

Here's what I've noticed.
The biggest problem with modellers isn't the amplifier/PA or the guitar.  The problem is avoiding clipping in the modeller itself.
Trying to get the maximum volume out of completely clean patches is hard enough by itself.
The reason: there's no glorious tubes to round out the amplitude mistakes in a pleasing way.  If you get to the end of the headroom in a modeller, you get clipping which is TERRIBLE.
Due to this fact, I think the biggest problem with every modeller I've used, including my beloved VG-99, is the lack of clean headroom.
Trying to use compressors/limiters or tube amp COSM blah blah in the modeller to maximize your picking dynamic range while still making it sound like the sound you get from your simple tube amp is really hard to do.

Of course, if the modelling companies added more dynamic range headroom to these things, then maybe the problem would shift to the amplifiers/PAs we use to hear ourselves since we'd probably overdrive the input stages of the amplifiers/PAs.

I don't know what the solution is.  This is just my $.02 ramblings on this.

Your thoughts?

Brent Flash

Just in case you don't know, the VG-99 has internal metering to make sure you do not clip any where along the internal chain. To get to this metering just hit the CHAIN button and select the part of the chain you want to check levels on.

Elantric

#2
I Agree 100%

Each DSP Amp Modeler has its strengths and weakness.

Myself I discovered that its crucial to adjust levels at every gain stage to onset of clipping, then back things off a bit - often 30% lower  - just to have clean margin and  avoid input clipping at the initial A/D stage.

Many folks overlook the fact that a Roland Cube80XL uses similar COSM DSP Amp modeling as VG-99/GR-55, and these have very good signal to noise ratio with no odd clipping even when a separate +8dB booster pedal is used in front of the Cube80XL.

By contrast my Fender Mustang DSP amps / G-DEC, and Line6 HD500 are VERY picky about the signal level fed into its Guitar input  - its very easy to over load these with terrible sounding results.     

Elantric

QuoteJust in case you don't know, the VG-99 has internal metering to make sure you do not clip any where along the internal chain. To get to this metering just hit the CHAIN button and select the part of the chain you want to check levels on.

Yes - this is an important tool - sadly missing from the GR-55

amplayer

Quote from: Brent Flash on March 03, 2014, 09:07:04 AM
Just in case you don't know, the VG-99 has internal metering to make sure you do not clip any where along the internal chain. To get to this metering just hit the CHAIN button and select the part of the chain you want to check levels on.

Yep. I use the metering function all the time.
Still, if you just use a simple clean amp model, like the JC-120, and then set it to max volume for hard full chords without clipping, you have to set the gain very low.  Then, of course, you have to leave room in case any FX you add also add gain of their own.  By the time you reduce the gain enough to make this work, the output volume is quite low.  To compensate, you need a mammoth amplifier to gain it up to gig volume.
When you add to this the complexity of trying to match this volume with your other sounds/patches, you have something that is just plain hard to do IMHO.

amplayer

Quote from: Elantric on March 03, 2014, 09:16:03 AM
Yes - this is an important tool - sadly missing from the GR-55

Eegads.  I've been sort-of considering a GR-55 purchase.  No metering would make this a VERY difficult tool for me.  I was unaware (till now) they didn't put metering in the GR-55.

Brent Flash

Also if you have your input sensitivity set too high you will get a clipping sound from the pickup that does not show up on the metering but sounds a lot like you are clipping somewhere in the chain. This has been discussed since the release of the VG-99 but has generally been ignored by most users. I do not have any problem with clean levels at all. I don't perform anymore since I retired but did a lot in the past with no problems.

montyrivers

Quote from: Brent Flash on March 03, 2014, 09:07:04 AM
Just in case you don't know, the VG-99 has internal metering to make sure you do not clip any where along the internal chain. To get to this metering just hit the CHAIN button and select the part of the chain you want to check levels on.

This.  Can't overstate how important it is to give your guitar patches a good look down the chain to prevent digital artifact.

musicman65

No problems here with the VG99. I use the chain monitoring to check metering at all stages on new patches.

FYI, the last gain inside the Amp block is the modelled microphone gain. It can be used to reduce or make up gain. Then there is mixer volume per chain, then overall patch volume.

I use 1/4 outs with my Main volume knob at 50% and have no issues driving the pregains on my soundboard with clean signals.

Its easy to get things out of balance and clip if you don't check levels from input to outputs. I, like others have said, try to keep things well below clip so I can solo without clipping.

Toby Krebs

I think I have had more problems clipping/blowing out the diaphragm on Shure 57s' close miced on my Marshall and Fenders than I have with modelling stuff. That's because when I look behind me and see a tube amp I want to turn it up louder and louder and then turn my gain pedals up louder and well you see where I am going here. I rarely turn anything up or down when using my modelling gear. As far as Roland stuff goes/Boss GT-GR55 etc... that mic. level parameter will very quickly give you a broken speaker/mic. clipping sound if it is up to high. I never go higher than 50 per cent on that one. Gives me a clean tone with no modelled speaker breakup.