Godin XTSA

Started by kennisrussell, May 17, 2011, 02:00:13 PM

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kennisrussell

Some of the PCM sounds are completely unusable with my Godin XTSA because there are way too many false triggers.  Like the drums, it's pretty much impossible not to have it trigger notes I am not playing.  I have set the GR-55 to Pieze R, and adjusted the Sensitivity down very low and very high and still have issues with false triggers.  If anyone knows of some tricks to help me that would be great.  Are there parameters that I'm not doing in the GR-55?  The strings and pad sounds are ok, but I guess it is the more percussive sounds that are the biggest issue, even the pianos are almost unplayable.  Thanks for your help in advance.

Update:  I installed the RMC opt-1 and it made all the difference in the world. I made some videos of installation and demo to compare. Also made a series of videos of my final settings in th GR-55 calibrated for my Godin XTSA. Hopefully this will help some having the same problems I did.





Elantric

#1
Kennis,

Thanks for the all your great GR-55 Videos!

QuoteSome of the PCM sounds are completely unusable with my Godin XTSA because there are way too many false triggers.  If anyone knows of some tricks to help me that would be great. 


Sounds like the best solution is installing a RMC GR-55 Sub harmonic hi pass Input filter board - to tame the low frequency content generated by the Piezo pickups, as this is the source of the GR-55 mis-triggering.

Details are here:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3236.0

EDIT July 2014   -
More details on setting up the GR-55 to track best with a Godin xTSA is here:

During the Christmas break I finally had some time to play with the GR-55 and my new Godin xTSA RMC pickup guitar.

I'm using these settings below with much success using my Godin xTSA (RMC) and stock GR-55 (rev 1.50 firmware )

Thanks Jim Williams!



On both my xTSA'a - the COSM Modleling sounds most excellent .

This is AFTER I follow Jim Williams Piezo Setup.

--
In System, Set the GK PU type to:
PU type ;  PIEZO R
Scale :  ST
PU phase : NORMAL
PU direction : NORMAL
S1/S2 position : NORMAL
NORM PU gain : 0 dB
PIEZO TONE  LOW  :    0
PIEZO TONE HIGH  :   +6

"DIS"
10.0 mm all strings (does not matter GR-55 ignores this for all Peizo PU selections)

"SEN"
Set the sensitivities for all strings to "50" average (+/-5  - that is all my strings have sensitivity set in the range between 45-55 .
Pre 2012 Godin. Set GK String Sensitivity  to "0"

"VEL"
Velocity Dynamics :  2
Play-Feel         :  2 (may vary depending on how you play synth tones)
Low-Velocity Cut  :  8-9

"NUA"
Nuance Dynamics   :  4
Nuance Trim       :  4

"DOW"
Shift   :   0
===============


Be sure you are using Headphones when forming opinion on the sounds  / patches of your Roland gear.!!


Ive voiced prolifically on this forum my preference for GK-3 type pickups for use with Roland COSM Modeling systems , but there have been some minor incremental developments  / improvements in the RMC electronics over the years. I admit bulk of my prior opinions on RMC piezo pickups were based upon a 1998 era RMC Piezo Polydrive 1 install in a Les Paul feeding  a Roland VG-8, where I could always "hear" the underlying RMC piezo characteristics in the VG-8's output, regardless of any COSM patch or tweaking.

In contrast, the GR-55 with firmware 1.50 , and using Jim Williams Piezo setup suggestions

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3965.msg53317#msg53317

and string sensitivity at an average of "50" for all strings with this new 2012 Godin xTSA

(* Note RMC reccommends a "GK Sensitivity"setting of "0" for older pre "summer 2011" Godins with RMC pickups!)
- the GR-55 sounds wonderful. True the GR-300 preset still has low frequency handling noises and random noises, (the optional RMC OPT-01 sub filter board should cure this) -


In context when using only the 13 pin cable. The Godin's Normal Mag PU"S (Or Mono Piezo Signal  - depending on the guitar volume control settings) will  feed pin #7, on the 13 pin cable where the GR-55 can act as a "GT-100 like" COSM Amp Modeler. All audio output occurs at the GR-55 Stereo Output jacks.
My first order of business was modifying ALL GR-55 User Presets to enable the use of the Godin's Normal pickups and enable use of the three way "Guitar / Mix / Synth" switch on the Godin
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3402.0

- and for me, thats where the magic of the GR-55 happens. Many factory GR-55 patches become 300% more useful.

For example, one GR-55 Xylophone patch had a great multitap delay that when used with only straight normal pickups becomes a wonderful world of great tone where the Roland COSM Amp modelling and effects can be appreciated.

I do think the only way to go with the GR-55 is to use an external stereo Volume pedal, and then dedicate the on board GR-55 Expression pedal to "pan / morph" different effects / tones within a single patch. I also find that the xTSA and RMC Piezos and GR-55's Acoustic Modeling sounds very excellent !

But I also notice that with little effort, palm Muting IS possible and get very close to the sound of the Normal pickups.  Finally having a working  "Guitar / Mix / Synth" switch on the Godin  allows instant verification and reality check on the COSM Guitar Modeling and for me opens up worlds of usefulness for the GR-55.     

Next time you are debugging "why can't I hear my Normal PU's in my VG-99 / GR-55 / GP-10 using one 13 pin cable   - be sure nothing is connected to the 1/4" outputs jacks

Just wanted to point out that Godin LGXSA and xtSA 1/4" Output jacks feature the similar circuit as the Fender Roland Ready / GC-1 Strat below.

the Fender Roland Ready Strat / Roland GC-1 Strat's 1/4" output jack is a unique switching jack - The goal is to have a "stock Strat" when using the 1/4" output jack  - so anytime you insert a 1/4" plug into the GC-1's 1/4" "Normal PU Output"  jack  - this isolates removes the normal passive Strat Electronics signal output from entering into the GK Internal active buffer (which might load down the passive PU's and reduce high frequencies) and removes the ability to send normal mag PU tone down Pin #7 of the 13 pin Cable


brooster

#2
Quote from: kennisrussell on May 17, 2011, 02:00:13 PM
Some of the PCM sounds are completely unusable with my Godin XTSA because there are way too many false triggers.  Like the drums, it's pretty much impossible not to have it trigger notes I am not playing.  I have set the GR-55 to Pieze R, and adjusted the Sensitivity down very low and very high and still have issues with false triggers.  If anyone knows of some tricks to help me that would be great.  Are there parameters that I'm not doing in the GR-55?  The strings and pad sounds are ok, but I guess it is the more percussive sounds that are the biggest issue, even the pianos are almost unplayable.  Thanks for your help in advance.

Richard at RMC said to set sensitivity to zero on pre 2012 RMC piezos.

Elantric

#3
These are RMC's suggested settings for GR-55 with RMC Piezo pickups:
Richard McClish wrote>
"Thanks for your interest in RMC products.

Since you're using an RMC-equipped instrument, please find below a list of my current GK settings for your reference.

_____________________________________


GK SETTINGS  as of 4/05/11

"PU"
PU type ;  PIEZO R
Scale :  650 MM
PU phase : NORMAL
PU direction : NORMAL
S1/S2 position : NORMAL
NORM PU gain : 0 dB
PIEZO TONE  LOW  :    0
PIEZO TONE HIGH  :   +5

"DIS"
10.0 mm all strings

"SEN"
0  all strings

"VEL"
Velocity Dynamics :  6
Play-Feel         :  4
Low-Velocity Cut  :  5

"NUA"
Nuance Dynamics   :  5
Nuance Trim       :  5

"DOW"
Shift   :   0

__________________________________


However, properly adjusting the GK (system) settings is only half the story.
There are also patch-specific parameter adjustments to be performed which make a huge difference in play-feel and tracking results.

For example : CHROMATIC, LEGATO, LEVEL VELOCITY SENS & VELOCITY CURVE TYPE are all patch specific.
If chromatic and legato aren't properly set for what you want to do, you're not going to be happy with the results. I recommend discussing these topics on the VG forum. Some power users should be providing some patch-related preferences by now.


With regards to the usability of the GR-300 sounds (or lack thereof) thats where the G5SF-001 active jackboard with subsonic filtering does its best work.

The G5SF-001 active jackboard features polyphonic subsonic filtering to help eliminate unwanted side-effects due to the subsonic over- sensitivity of the GR-55 when using the analog GR-300 sounds.

The G5SF-001 beta prototype is under construction - see picture.
Pricing will be £ 90.
We expect to have units in stock in June or sooner.

I've created a special inquiries folder for this new product and I'll notify everyone who has requested one as soon as we have units ready to ship. The news will also be posted on the VG forums. I'm keeping their moderator informed so members will be provided with accurate information.

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3236.0

I hope the information provided will be helpful.

Best regards,

RMC   Richard McClish""

Rorster

#4
On my LGX-SA I find quite good response with the GR 55, however I have a piece of thick high density foam behind the bridge. Very smooth in comparison to some foam which has almost like pores in it. This has no pores when seen/felt from the top and bottom surfaces. It is tubular and it measures 7/16 inch thick. I cut a piece from it and placed it behind and up against the bridge under all the strings.  I found it lying around the house and I think it's used on bicycle handlebars. Again super smooth and 7/16" thick. Some bicycle handlebar foam I've seen is not the same in appearance. Without this foam the Godin (An awesome guitar) was not well played even through my AXON AX 100 due to the inability to get rid of the ghost notes. With the high density soft foam, the difference is tremendous. Another nice thing is that due to it's being black, it almost blends in and doesn't clash with the deep blue color of the guitar. Also, I've fooled around to a lesser degree with my Freeway SA and the GR 55, (Always setting the pickup to the appropriate piezo setting for Graphtech vs RMC ) and I'm pretty darn sure that the RMCs/LGX-SA is tracking much better. But I need to do more comparison to be fully certain. I just got the balls to install the GK3 on a Korean made PRS this weekend and am glad I did. First because I had to see the comparison between the Hex vs the Piezos. Second, I just couldn't see the thing lying around. And third, that damn Godin is heavy as hell (Still lovin it though) and the PRS is nice and light. Well I'm super GLAD I did because it was not that difficult, is sweet sounding, tracks very well and is light to have hanging on you. I couldn't put the damn thing down but had to cause had to go to work the next day. Find some of that high density, thick, soft foam and good luck.

gafaell

Quote from: kennisrussell on May 17, 2011, 02:00:13 PM
Some of the PCM sounds are completely unusable with my Godin XTSA because there are way too many false triggers.  Like the drums, it's pretty much impossible not to have it trigger notes I am not playing.  I have set the GR-55 to Pieze R, and adjusted the Sensitivity down very low and very high and still have issues with false triggers.  If anyone knows of some tricks to help me that would be great.  Are there parameters that I'm not doing in the GR-55?  The strings and pad sounds are ok, but I guess it is the more percussive sounds that are the biggest issue, even the pianos are almost unplayable.  Thanks for your help in advance.

Sorry, same situation with my beloved Godin LGXT, I am quitting with this issue. I cannot buy the subsonic filter in Spain  :'(

Gopaul

Rorster- could you give us a picture of your mod to the XTSA please, it sounds intriguing but i cant seem to grasp what you are saying?
PP
www.staustell-baptist.org.uk
Godin XTSA or GK3 equipped LP
VG-99
Gr-55
RC-30
Vocalist Live 3

prsrick

What Rorster described is for his LGXT which is different fro XTSA, for XTSA, there is no space between the bridge and the strings feed.

Elantric

#8
QuoteWhat Rorster described is for his LGXT

Actually what Rorster described is for his LGX-SA
Read the full Godin LGX thread here
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=308.0


You will probably be OK - but add foam string mutes  -these were added to all Godin LGX-SA after 2009
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=653.0



And  budget a 13 pin a sub filter solution,  as it will provide improved tracking when using a piezo equipped guitar with GR-55 Guitar to PCM, Guitar to MIDI, and improved usability (less palm handling noise if you touch the bridge during the GR-55's GR-300 COSM emulation. 

many exist

* RMC OPT-01 Internal sub filter for GR-55
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3236.0


* PrimovaSound GKFX-21 external sub filter unit
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=15681.0


* Wayne Joness GK Sub Filter/buffer external unit
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=9692.0

http://www.godinguitars.com/godinlgxsap.htm


And I know OP Kennis is looking for help with his Tremolo equipped XTSA - so the foam rubber damper advice for LGX-SA will not apply, but others with a guitar with Piezo (Gibson type) T.O.M. type bridge and separate tailpiece might want to heed the advice of adding a bit of foam rubber to mute the strings between the bridge and the tailpiece.   


prsrick

I wonder the new XTSA will have new RMC electronics which may include the subsonic filter,
If that's the case, may be we can order that from RMC or Godin.

imall41

#10
Quote from: Elantric on May 18, 2011, 10:06:32 AM

And I know OP Kennis is looking for help with his Tremolo equipped XTSA - so the foam rubber damper advice for LGX-SA will not apply, but others with a guitar with Piezo (Gibson type) T.O.M. type bridge and separate tailpiece might want to heed the advice of adding a bit of foam rubber to mute the strings between the bridge and the tailpiece.

I have been experimenting with different substances to mute the strings both, above the nut, and below the bridge, off and on for more than two years. In order to cut down on false triggers with my piezo pickups.
Memory foam, is hands down, the most effective IMHO.

Sometimes you can get a free sample at a mattress store. You only need a small piece.

Actually, the most effective method, is to use a piece of memory foam under a capo bar on the 1st fret, as a string mute like some jazz players do. Amazing results! Of course, this will not work if you need open strings, or you are playing in the 1st position, but for jazz chords, and single note soloing, muting the strings on the 1st fret greatly cuts down on ghost notes, and false triggers(even with a GK-3).

I finally gave up on piezos for my GR-55, and VG-99. Sold my Brian Moore, and am in the process of building a parts guitar for a GK-3.
The GK-3 just works so much better with these two units.
I don't blame Roland at all. They had to maximize these units for something, why not their own pickup.
Piezos are better for a lot of things, just not the GR-55, or the VG-99.

jayson

I just got my GR-55 and hooked up my XTSA with Richard's suggested settings.  It helped me get close to where I'd like to be.  The GR-300 patch sounds bad so I'll have to get my name on his mailing list for the sub filter if I decide to keep the GR-55.

Time to play around and get a better idea of what I think.

Cheers,

jayson

kennisrussell

Thanks everyone for the great response.  I will defiantly try all the RMC suggested settings from Elantric, and let y'all know how much of a difference it makes.  I'm sure it will help a lot cause the lowest I put the Sensitivity was around 15, so 0 will probably help a great deal, plus the other parameter adjustments.  Thanks again.  I love this vguitar community!

paganskins

Hey Kennis another thanks for the vids  :)

I set up some patches using piano with my XTSA last night and didn't find it that bad, I was getting much better results using finger style rather than a pick though.

danielh002

I just tried Richard's setup on my LGXT and it made a world of difference. Thank you, Elantric for posting this!!

Still needs some tweaking. For some reason my "B" string always sounds a little weak. When I look at the levels in the sensitivity settings I don't "see" any weakness of signal, but I boosted that string up a little (probably more psychological).

This is my first foray into guitar MIDI (coming from a VG-88) and I am amazed at how well the GR-55 tracks!!

Thanks again to all the posters for their input.
Dan

celestmark

Having same issues with my 6+ year old XTSA. I never really got into the midi w/ the GR-33 that I sold off to help get my new GR-55... I alos have a strat w/ a GK-3 and will be making it my primary ax.

Just too many confirmed issues with the XTSAs!  >:(

I'm not sure what the sonic filter is all about on the new RMCs, but just a quick search online lets me konw that that paying for the new RMC tech will outway the cost of selling my XTSA (bought in new) and getting a more proven platform!

It's too bad casue the Godin is a very nice playing instrument! :'(

viramundo

The problem with setting the sensitivities to 0 is of course that the modelled sounds become very quiet.

This gives problems especially when you want to have patches with split strings.

The best compromise I've found so far (& I've experimented with this a lot) is to set all string sensitivities to 12.
Velocity Dynamics 6
Play Feel 4
Low Velocity Cut 5

The GR-55 allows you to use different set ups for each patch of course, the 0 string sensitivities can then be used on patches where you dont use a modelled sound.

It aint perfect & I'd like to try a GK-3 with the unit one day for comparison but that's the best compromise I've come up with.

I'll probably get the RMC filter when it's commercially available just to to hear those sounds that so far are totally unusable in any way with the RMC pick up.

Strings make a difference too, (see my other thread) & I've noticed I get more accuracy on horn & piano sounds using a plectrum.
Still dont help with the drum sounds though, no settings I've tried will get them into any sort of playability.

kblohm

Spoke with roland tech re this issue was advised to adjust " low velocity cut settings" currently have  the settings I currently use on the Godin xtsa are as follows; Velocity Dynamics @5, Play Feel @ 3 and Low Velocity Cut @8. I also have used the piezo "G" setting on this guitar with success.. My string sensitivity are as follows.. string 1 @51, string 2 @46, string 3 @ 51, string 4 @ 42, string 5 @41, and string 6 @ 39. These seem to be working fairly well ,  fewer false triggers....

Jim Williams

Hey Kennis, Great vids we all can't thank you enough. As for your problem I contacted Roland support by phone and found that the other settings on the Velocity and Nuance pages are very important. I use a GK3 but this rule would still apply. You want to have your play feel on the low side to get the most dynamic range you can. your dynamic cut is applied to cut bad notes and mistriggers. Try raising both nuance settings a little, This helped with drums alot. There are more settings in the GR-55 and you have to play with them all for a while to understand what they do.
Skype: (upon Request)

Everything from modeling to the real deal, my house looks like a music store.

celestmark


patchouli

#20
I wanted a guitar with synth pickup built in. I decided to go with Godin XTSA. My previous set up was Fender strat/GK3. After I received my new Godin XTSA. I adjusted sensibility liKe it was suggested on this thread  https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4551.msg30717#msg30717 . It is working fine for most PCM sound mainly improved attack (sound) and tracking. But I I just dont like the way the modeling tone sound...It used to be fluid and articulated now it's like grainy and boomy. Is this normal? 

Elantric

#21
First, I will point out that it is extremely difficult for the buyer of the gear we talk about here to have an opportunity to actually try out and compare all the different types of competing brands of guitars and GK hex pickups, prior to making the purchase decision.   

The best Guitar type and GK Hex Pickup type is all a matter of personal preference and taste. Other factors are what style of music you are playing, and what the instrument looks like in live performance. Many place a higher emphasis on the appearance of an instrument over its actual sound. Other factors are a robust hardware implementation and "will this hold up on the road playing 5 nights a week for months on end?"

Quote[When I used my old Fender Roland Ready Strat with internal GK-2A, the COSM Tones] used to be fluid and articulated  - [but] now [with my Godin with Piezo pickup]it's like grainy and boomy. Is this normal? 

Yes.
At the heart of the matter is simple physics. The frequency response of Piezo pickups is much much wider than magnetic pickups. 
However many discover piezo hex pickups exhibit significant anomalies when feeding Roland COSM Guitar and Amp modeling processors , such as low rumbles anytime your hand makes contact with the bridge, a "boomy" sound, and a harsh "brittle" distortion in the higher frequencies when attempting to nail classic Rock Guitar tones.   
But clever use of EQ can often fix these problems which are common to all piezo pickup users. (hint - the VG-99 has far more EQ tone shaping tools on tap than the GR-55).

To emulate the sound of a GK-3 with a piezo hex pickup guitar on a COSM Model patch, , you will want to make drastic cuts in the low end frequencies and the high end frequencies. Researching and understanding the frequency response of the actual instrument you are trying to sound like helps significantly too. But Piezo pickups with Roland Gear is definitely NOT "plug and play"!


 
From my vantage point as a session/gigging guitarist of 40+years, when using Roland gear capable of hexaphonic COSM Modeling tones (VG-8, VG-88, VG-99, GR-55) my own ears tell me that A PROPERLY SETUP Roland GK-2, GK-2A, GK-3A, Axon AIX-101, Yamaha G1D MAGNETIC HEX PICKUP will deliver an improved owner experience for bulk of the COSM Model tones produced by a VG-99, GR-55. The Roland R&D Engineers design these COSM Modeling systems to perform best with a Roland GK-3. Many top "Roland GK Players" I know observe this distinction, and will prefer to use a hex Magnetic type GK 13 pin pickup system - because its less harsh sounding and sounds smoother than competing Piezo sysems. Another significant benefit of using a GK-3 pickup is it allows palm Bridge staccato muting playing style - essential for many types of music, from surf, to new wave, to Metal.

On the other side of this argument are the users who prefer a Piezo hex bridge pickup system. In my discussions with users of Piezo hex pickup systems,  I find their purchase decision to go with Piezo pickups was based upon a google search, or they got a referral from a "MIDI Guitar guru" who said that a Piezo Hex Bridge pickup system will always "track" Guitar to MIDI superior to the Roland GK-3 Magnetic pickup system. Most of the inertia for this mindset comes from Godin RMC pickup users when using Axon Guitar to MIDI conversion products 10 years ago, and disgruntled Roland GK-3 owners whose pickup was not properly setup with the correct height and placement on the guitar. Obtaining smooth musical sounding COSM Guitar and AMP modeling with a Piezo Hex pickup guitar will always require lots of experimentation, tweaking, and careful attention to understanding the significance of the frequency bandwidth of your signal at each critical tone shaping stage in the Roland DSP COSM Modeling engine.
To Master Roland COSM Modeling, download and Read all the docs at this link:
here:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=88.0   


Note that the concept of Roland COSM Guitar and Amp Modeling, even in 2011  - remains a completely misunderstood concept the typical Guitarist can't wrap his brain around.

Instead, he will turn to Line 6's "plug and play" product line (Variax, POD)and will believe these to be totally unique, original and "ground breaking" in the marketplace.

In truth, bulk of Line 6's product offerings are rehashed / improvements on the DSP technology which made its first public appearance years before on gear wearing a Roland name tag .
   
The answers as to why this development  / misconception exists in the marketplace rests squarely on Roland Corp's inability to properly convey  / market  / sell their own technology properly to the masses.

OK - enough  - I'll step off my soapbox.

read more opinions here:

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3858.0

and elsewhere on our forum!
Each of us have unique goals, needs, time,money, ears, technical background,exposure to technology, discipline to actually read the owners manual cover to cover twice - and talent!


Gatordude

#22
All reviews seemed to report that the tracking on the Roland GR-55 was better than ever for a Roland guitar synth.  WRONG.  I used my Godin STSA with my GR-33 at a gig a couple weeks ago.  It performed superbly.  However, when my GR-55 arrived and I set it up and started checking out some of the sounds I was very disappointed.  The tracking was bad, bad, bad on all the horns (sax especially) and quite a few other sounds.
I had sold my GK-3 that was installed in my Strat when I bought the GR-55 and it was on the way via FEDEX.  SO - after having so much trouble with my Godin, I reinstalled the NEW GK-3 that I received with my GR-55 (got a great pkg. deal) in my Strat.  And guess what???  The GR-55 STILL tracks like crap compared my GR-33 although the Strat is 100 times better than the Godin.
I have researched the web and THIS site and I've taken several of the recommended steps with very little success.
I'm really frustrated.  I'm probably getting rid of the GODIN.
Any suggestions????

Elantric

#23
Most GR-55 owners with Piezo Hex pickups (RMC, Ghost, LR Baggs) WILL need the RMC OPT-01 Input Filter board installed inside the GR-55 to provide additional filtering of the 13 pin guitar signals.
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3236.msg21120#msg21120


There is a banner at the top of the Forum Home page.
  "GR-55 owners start here"
Please read the "GR-55 Top Things to Know" thread:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4006.0

spyder5150

Any thoughts on this topic?  I've been so confused about buying strings for this guitar ever since I got it.  It seems like regular electric guitar strings sound fine but with the acoustic piezo feature, I've often wondered how acoustic strings would sound? Anyone tried this before? I was rather disappointed that the Godin didn't come with any documentation on which type of strings to use.

Do certain types of strings work better with the pcm sounds than others?

Maybe I'm just over-complicating the idea. lol  ::)