Triple Play vs Roland GK3 vs ZTAR

Started by macnylonguitar, January 27, 2016, 10:16:03 AM

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macnylonguitar

Hello fellow MID guitarists,

I got into MIDI guitar back in the 80's at Western Connecticut State U where I studied guitar. I was exposed to most of them: The original Roland (Andy Summers, that had an actual guitar not just a pedal board), Roland GR series, Ibanez (weird stabilizer bar), Yamaha G10, some other company using lasers working with Gibson I think. They all were lacking, ie, they sucked.

I actually played a Casio toy with plastic strings, and oddly this was one of the best at tracking, by a lot.

Of course it did not actually track / pitch to midi convert anything, it was mechanically pulling the strings.

The tracking is rarely spot on, and it was not a question of if, but when you would get a midi glitch.

I then got an Axon in the mid 1990's and that was the best of the worst, playable for gigs. I was using my Godin multiac nylon going into the Axon.

The Axon was the best of all of these, but still not quite there.

I find it almost on the brink of ludicrous that the industry cannot make a midi guitar in today's technology landscape that is instantaneous tracking, practically zero latency.

But I get it, it's a business and you have to have demand for a product and also the people with the vision and engineering.

I was an engineer at Apple in 2001-2003, if they wanted to, it could be done, with today's processors, algorithms, analysis, etc. This could all be in real time.

Whether it is via pitch to midi conversion, or direct contact, we could have latency of 2 ms to zero.

So I am on my quest, wanting to get back into this big time, and looking for where to spend my money, WISELY.

I have been talking with Harvey Starr for years, and I am all set to get a Starr Labs Z5S, and from the reviews and what I hear, it is as close the "Holy Grail" of zero latency as possible. After many years, I now have the $1595 for the Z5S.

Thing is I have never actually held one of these. Does it feel like a professional guitar?, how does the neck feel with these rubber string sensors?

The idea of having strings on the right hand (perfect for my finger style playing), and no strings on the fretboard, the concept seems spot on. No string pitch to midi conversion, ever (what a concept).

Or does the FTP or GK-3 track well enough for $300, (one can save $1300 bucks in not having to get the Z5S).

BTW, my style on midi guitar is what a keyboard player would do, fender rhodes, digital pians type stuff, chords, pads, atmospheric (Omnisphere type stuff).

I now see Larry Mitchel (guitar player) on Spectrasonics using a strat, and a Roland GK-3 pickup, going to his MacBook Pro and triggering Spectrasonics Trillian bass sounds, and for the most part, it sounds pretty good in real time with Tony James the drummer, saying it actually "works" live, actually in time.

Elantric

#1
MIDI guitar will always have compromises and often you must pay double $$ to accomplish a 10% gain

I suggest try Jam Origin MIDI Guitar first (work with any guitar - no special PU required)
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=7530.msg120227#msg120227

Quote
I actually played a Casio toy with plastic strings, and oddly this was one of the best at tracking, by a lot.
The You Rock Guitar GenII is $200
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3230.msg96967#msg96967
IMHO a StarLabs ZTar controller experience is closer to playing an Accordion than a Guitar


The Fastest divided PU system for stringed guitar today is the Fishman Tripleplay, created by Andras Szalay (who developed the Axon, Shadow SH-75, and Kramer GT-6M)

szilard

Does it have to be MIDI? There are guitar synths that are minimal latency, like digital fx, very expressive, and no glitches. Check out the EHX Key9 for EP sounds. It's nice. The Boss SY-300 covers a lot of analog synth territory. Brass & string pads, organ sounds, lead horns, synth leads, bass, ambient, and so on. No special PU required - whatever electric you like.

With a GK-3 PU you could try a GP-10 and the COSM synth models and also get GTR-to-MIDI if you want or GR-55 will also give you COSM synth models, PCM tones (although you may start to glitch) and GTR-to-MIDI.

Elantric

#3
And for many sound designers - the 2007 Roland VG-99 remains supreme for no latency expression with a Guitar 
( Who needs MIDI?)

read

Programming Roland/Boss COSM FX
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=88.0

and listen to:
AlienSporeBomb
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?board=107.0

and on Soundcloud for VG-99 in action
https://soundcloud.com/aliensporebomb

macnylonguitar

#4
Thx, yes definitely has to be MIDI, to control the Spectrasonics sounds (Omnisphere, Trillian, etc.), to me some of the best synth  / sample sounds on the planet.

With Omnisphere 2, there is something like 400 waveforms (from 4), and audio import, etc., now one can create their own unique and (usable) sounds rather fast and easy.

Guitar synthesis to me just does not come close (I tried a String Port), years ago and to me it was lacking.

So it seems like it may come down to JAM Origin MIDI Guitar or Fishman Triple Play. Any thoughts on these two compared?

I just saw Tom Quayle using JAM Origin and it looks like it is tracking pretty darn well. Actually cannot believe this software actually exists, someone is actually doing Pitch to Midi with 2016 technology.

I think I also read the guy who developed Axon developed FTP. Interesting if true.

I had the Axon and there was some AI (artificial intelligence) going on where the fretted string did not have to always be analyzed and converted to MIDI pitches in real time, the guitar audio note waveforms were analyzed and stored / "cached" and recalled when those notes were replayed. Not sure that is how FTP is working.

Thx again, macgnylonguitar

Rhcole

I have played and used them all. The Ztar will provide a very different user interface with a much different feel. Your Casio DG-10 was kind of close to the feel. But, many people master the Ztar and use it well.

I personally like combining a Fishman Triple Play with some other product to round out the limitations and features of the FTP. Right now I use the EHX KEY 9 for its pianistic attack transients with regular guitar and then the FTP running into a synth routed through the SY-300. This is a monster setup that comes very close to being glitch and trouble free.

If I needed modeled guitars right now I might use the GP-10, but it is presently not up for me.

macnylonguitar

So it looks like it is coming down to FTP or JAM Origin.

Some say the FTP is faster, some say JAM Origin.

But, I am also hearing the ZTAR Z5s is very, very good, like the best. Zero latency, obviously, no strings, no pitch to midi

Macnylonguitar

Trevor

With pitch to midi, you'll always get slight latency and the occasional glitch.The FTP is the best so far (wonderful to be exact), it is so slight that it almost feels like you've precognition playing, hard to explain, but there is a slight disconnect.I've never played a Ztar but I recently bought a Du-Touch, button playing instrument, with headphones it is instant playing (no latency) feels very "acoustic" against the body, button/key push is the only way to zero latency, but you'll have to learn a new layout, not that that's all bad, I find a different layout makes you think differently musically.
Search for a used FTP first, got mine for $170.

JoBoss

Quote from:  sec6
Another option that operates very well is using the GP10 for guitar to midi.  Using the Raspbery Pi with an external synth (I use the Waldorf Blofeld) gets great results and you can blend with all of the modeling sounds of the GP10.  The RP can be configured to boot the guitar to synth connection automatically and you can program it to shutdown using the GP10 power switch.  No keyboard or monitor required.

How can the RP be configured to boot automatically and also shutdown using the GP10 power switch with no keyboard or monitor required....  ::) ???....

Elantric

#9
All known details of the RPI with GP-10 is here
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=11998.0


many GP-10 folks have elected to use the PrimovaSound MIDX-10 instead of RPI
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=16619.0



Elantric

#10
Another thread with further incite on this topic

GR-55 - Convince me: Why should I upgrade from a GR-33 to a GR-55?
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=9705.msg69643#msg69643

chrish

Quote from:  sec6
Another option that operates very well is using the GP10 for guitar to midi.  Using the Raspbery Pi with an external synth (I use the Waldorf Blofeld) gets great results and you can blend with all of the modeling sounds of the GP10.  The RP can be configured to boot the guitar to synth connection automatically and you can program it to shutdown using the GP10 power switch.  No keyboard or monitor required.
i'm glad i stumbed across your post. i guess i didn't realize that the gp-10 could trigger midi hardware such as you are doing with the Biofield and the usb host to midi. Certainly another option as this would represent rolands latest attempt at pitch to midi, without the midi plug.  Does the pitch to usb to midi result in a lot of glitches like false triggered notes and how do picking dynamics translate with this setup. I wonder if roland left out the midi plug because they didn't want the gp-10 to compete with their gr-55?

Elantric

#12
Quotei'm glad i stumbed across your post. i guess i didn't realize that the gp-10 could trigger midi hardware such as you are doing with the Biofield and the usb host to midi.

Suggest read our Boss GP-10 FAQ

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=11796.0


All known details of the Raspberry Pi as a USB Host to MIDI I/O converter  with GP-10 is here
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=11998.0


many GP-10 folks have elected to use the PrimovaSound MIDX-10 instead of RPI
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=16619.0


QuoteDoes the pitch to usb to midi result in a lot of glitches like false triggered notes and how do picking dynamics translate with this setup.

GP-10 Guitar to MIDI tracks very well AFTER  you follow the GP-10 Guitar to MIDI setup procedure with proper settings for Low Velocity Cut


Its the same procedure as the GR-55 Guitar to MIDI setup procedure here:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=31
   

whippinpost91850

Just noticed the Kemper in this picture of the MIDIX-10.
Looks older then my 5 yr old one. On/off knob is different and panel graphics are also different. Is this yours, Bills, or Roberts ???


Elantric

#14
That's a photo from Bill Ruppert who obtained one of the early MIDX-10's and an early Kemper Toaster.

whippinpost91850

Cool! I thought that may have been the case. Bill does seem to be first with alot of stuff ;D

Anyway I thought the Kemper looked cool

Smash

#16
Quote from: macnylonguitar on January 27, 2016, 05:01:14 PM
So it looks like it is coming down to FTP or JAM Origin.

Some say the FTP is faster, some say JAM Origin.

But, I am also hearing the ZTAR Z5s is very, very good, like the best. Zero latency, obviously, no strings, no pitch to midi

Macnylonguitar

The Jam Origin is an incredibly impressive piece of software - a remarkable achievement - but it's nowhere near the FTP in terms of resisting false retriggering or random squawks. MIDI Guitar 2 would be a "make do" system in my eyes - if you're looking for slow attack pads to fill out exisiting sounds then great, but IMHO it's too unpredictable to be let loose out on it's own.

My own experience if you strum a chord and then pick individual notes in that chord whilst other strings are left ringing, the ringing strings will often retrigger as you pick the other strings. I should make it clear it's the iOS version I'm using, not PC. But even with adjustment of noise gate and velocity curves it's incredibly difficult to get it clean in any polyphonic situation. For monophonic stuff however, it can be incredibly impressive and yes, latency is low enough not to be an issue here. It's so nearly there - for me personally, just not yet. It's a free download so you have nothing to lose in trying it...

The FTP is far more forgiving and whilst it does mean a hex mount, the pickup system is designed to be hot swapped from guitar to guitar with magnetic mount and sliding pup mount. The GK3 is at best a semi permanent addition by contrast.

Can't speak for GP10 but several people I respect say it's nearly a match for FTP - in which case (ignoring the GP-10's considerable other talents) it comes down to ease of mounting/switching and usb midi compliance in which case it's a win (for me) for the FTP - add in wireless connectivity and the deal is done. If you're talking about using Omnisphere then there really isn't anything the GP-10 can add to that party - there is a youtube video demonstrating FTP with Omnisphere and it's hugely impressive....


jassy

#17
Yes I agree about the different results of polyphonic/monophonic with Jam Origin MidiGuitar software.
In mono its really impressive, the best probably imo of course.
In polyphonic there are some problems with some intervals and some slightly strange behaviour sometimes yet to be resolved, although minor problems, they can limit their use in professional environments.
The best thing is that it works with ANY guitar, you dont need to bother installing nothing! and thats a big plus (I tend to play with several guitars, yes, I confess, I'm a polygamist).
At least in my experience its not that easy to move the ftp from one guitar to another, because it needs to be fine tuned with every guitar

chrish



Quote
''many GP-10 folks have elected to use the PrimovaSound MIDX-10 instead of RPI
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=16619.0


GP-10 Guitar to MIDI tracks very well AFTER  you follow the GP-10 Guitar to MIDI setup procedure with proper settings for Low Velocity Cut


Its the same procedure as the GR-55 Guitar to MIDI setup procedure here:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=31 '' unquote

From what i understand, the midx-10  is being replaced by the midx-20, so maybe when that happens there will be a few used 10's on the market. I read about the velocity low cut on the gp-10 being a feature that mininizes false triggers below the cut off threshold, so my guess (but don't know) is that a very soft picked note would not trigger the midi note on message. This occurs with my GR-50 with the Gk-2, so soft picking dynamics produces no sound in the midi slave synth module. That may be also why hammer on's and slides don't always sound and when they do, sometimes they false trigger. I know the we're supposed alter our guitar technique when using pitch to midi however, it's some of those techniques that make a guitar, well, a guitar, and adds a uniqueness (when they work glitch free) when playing sampled pcm synth sounds from a guitar as opposed to a keyboard. Yes i want my cake and eat it too. :-) Time to demo some new stuff.

Smash

Despite my concerns I've purchased Midi Guitar 2 and am working to get the best set-up. Using primarily with my Martin HD28 to add pads fine tuning the settings. The Martin has a Baggs Lyric pick up which sounds fantastic - especially through Yonac Tonestack with ambient verbs and choruses on a split chain then add pads from iProphet and Sunrizer via MG2 and things really start getting interesting....