GR-55 - What's Next?

Started by Enticing_Scarab, June 21, 2015, 08:21:28 AM

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Enticing_Scarab

After looking at Line 6's Helix and coming away pretty impressed (contrary to the feeling most of their other products leave me with), it made me think what Roland should make the 'next' GR-55 into.

I actually researched this heavily for my final-year uni dissertation project, which culminated with me designing my own GK-3 guitar based on the findings, and I do intend to write to Roland's UK HQ to show it to them. I think there's a real chance for Roland to bring some great new features whilst resolving some issues users found with the existing GR-55, so I've made a short list below. I welcome further input from the community, too  :)

New Features

  • More MIDI-assignable buttons to control inbuilt effects or external hardware
  • Bigger LCD with a colourful and intuitive UI
  • Bluetooth/WiFi for remote control from a companion app (see below)
  • Send/Return loop for bringing in external stomp boxes, with control features like the Boss pedal controller that came out recently
  • XLR inputs for affecting +4dBv output sources (imagine the possibilities for vocals!)
  • Also make a rack-mount version

Improvements

  • Official PC/Mac/iOS (including Watch)/Android software to control it remotely and arrange/create presets
  • Improved preamps for use as an audio interface
  • An output that doesn't destroy the tone when connected to an amp instead of a PA
  • Improved guitar, amp and FX modelling, including impulse responses and microphone options (and placement variation)
  • Much improved software support! The GR-55 never even had an official client (even though the community responded excellently)
  • Much faster operation, particularly when controlling external MIDI instruments/FX and internal present changes (no audio dropout)
  • More guitar models, and further improved virtual per-string tuning

Crucially, it must not require a new type of GK pickup. It'll only alienate potential customers with GK-3/GK-2a pickups and, frankly, how much further can they innovate a hexaphonic pickup? The GK-3 in particular tracks superbly.

I understand I'm basically asking for the Helix with a Roland logo on the back, but if they can match the features at a lower price then I think they're onto a winner. People into guitar synthesis mostly really know their stuff on the subject, so they can afford to go a bit deeper with features than the competition, which are essentially advanced multi-FX units.

Jim Williams

I feel that Roland has responded to what GR-55 consumers have requested in the form of the BOSS GP-10. Most of you requests are with the guitar side of the GR-55 and not really addressed as a guitar synth. The GR-55 is a guitar synth that has a guitar effects section with guitar modeling. I think the GR-55 was a great seller for Roland being a all in one box for guitarists. It really is a jack of all trades and master of none. When I read the posts most players are using it as a guitar multi effects when it was designed to be more of a synth. The main design flaw is that to do all that it does the DSP is just about maxed out. To make a better model you would have firstly increase the DSP to accommodate all the things you suggest and still be a guitar synth.

I think the GR-55 is the only thing of it's kind and we won't see anything like it until we see a substantial leap in technology. As for the Helix that is Line 6 going back to the drawing board and reinventing their product and Roland will have to do the same.
Skype: (upon Request)

Everything from modeling to the real deal, my house looks like a music store.

gumtown

If you are comparing "apples with Line 6 Helix",
for all the pro level enhancements you want, the price must reflect on that too.

If the Helix is 3 x the price of the HD500, then you could expect the equivalent next pro level GR Synth to be 3 x $700.00
which would make it $2100.00
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Deus02

Quote from: Jim Williams on June 21, 2015, 01:24:04 PM
I feel that Roland has responded to what GR-55 consumers have requested in the form of the BOSS GP-10. Most of you requests are with the guitar side of the GR-55 and not really addressed as a guitar synth. The GR-55 is a guitar synth that has a guitar effects section with guitar modeling. I think the GR-55 was a great seller for Roland being a all in one box for guitarists. It really is a jack of all trades and master of none. When I read the posts most players are using it as a guitar multi effects when it was designed to be more of a synth. The main design flaw is that to do all that it does the DSP is just about maxed out. To make a better model you would have firstly increase the DSP to accommodate all the things you suggest and still be a guitar synth.

I think the GR-55 is the only thing of it's kind and we won't see anything like it until we see a substantial leap in technology. As for the Helix that is Line 6 going back to the drawing board and reinventing their product and Roland will have to do the same.

I would tend to agree.  In the case of the "Helix", I would expect that the purchase of Line 6 by Yamaha has enabled the company to, as you stated, "go back to the drawing board and reinvent themselves".   Aside from the increase in price, however, with any of this equipment frankly, one has to be careful in that as you add more and more features you also could make things potentially more complicated and perhaps in the process, reduce user friendliness.   We have seen all too often, buyers whom after working with various modelers, only to, after a certain amount of time , throw their hands up in the air, return it to the vendor or, out of frustration and often impatience, put it on a shelf where it collects dust probably never to be used again.

gumtown

Quote from: Enticing_Scarab on June 21, 2015, 08:21:28 AM
Crucially, it must not require a new type of GK pickup. It'll only alienate potential customers with GK-3/GK-2a pickups and, frankly, how much further can they innovate a hexaphonic pickup? The GK-3 in particular tracks superbly.
I think the GK3 does need to change, they need to ditch the cumbersome and fragile 13 pin cable and come up with either a wireless system, or a system that uses a regular guitar cable, that regular guitar people know and use, and are familiar and comfortable with.
That will require the GK4 being a digital device, and the regular guitar cable carrying a composite of DC power and digital data (or multi channel analog at R.F.).
Then a regular 13 pin socket can be also supplied in the 'what's next' unit for GK3 backward compatibility.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Enticing_Scarab

Good points! Perhaps I ought to position my wishlist as a VG-99 successor instead for the most part?

I agree that the price would need to increase, given that the Helix is up against the Kemper and AxeFX in that bracket. At worst, I'd just like to see a Roland unit with a better UI (in colour), a more advanced DSP and app integration. I'm not as fussed about inbuilt synth voices (excluding guitar models) as I can just link it to software/outboard gear and control that from the unit.

I think normal guitarists are happy enough with multi-FX units. I have no real problem with the 13-pin cable myself, unless they switched to Cat5. Even then, it'd alienate a lot of current users invested with GK pickups (if they didn't add backwards compatibility) whilst failing to draw new people in who see current market offerings as enough for what they want/need/understand.

imerkat

From what I've heard the Helix will have a Synth FX pack. If that is integrated with the Variax and if they put as mush effort as they claim to the amps as with the synths; we might be looking that the Line 6's GR competitor. 

Enticing_Scarab

Quote from: imerkat on June 22, 2015, 06:23:32 AM
From what I've heard the Helix will have a Synth FX pack. If that is integrated with the Variax and if they put as mush effort as they claim to the amps as with the synths; we might be looking that the Line 6's GR competitor.

They've really nailed it from what I've seen so far. You can bet Roland will be watching it with interest, possibly more so than us. Thing is, I'd still rather buy Roland as I trust the brand more, and the sounds with the GR gear are excellent as well.

imerkat

Quote from: Enticing_Scarab on June 22, 2015, 06:31:35 AM
Thing is, I'd still rather buy Roland as I trust the brand more, and the sounds with the GR gear are excellent as well.

Well, I'm with you there. I prefer the aesthetics of the Roland Units and the sound over Line 6 but I only trust them as far as i can throw them. They put out GR-55 without an editor, They deliberately disabled the PCM tones to be used with MIDI in, put out the GP-10 without 5-pin ports, and none of there units are MIDI Class-compliant. Not to mentioned there promos have been stuck in the 80's for 30 years I couldn't think of a more faceless  corporation in music right now. Still looking forward to the SY-300  ;D

Enticing_Scarab

Quote from: imerkat on June 22, 2015, 08:05:34 AM
Well, I'm with you there. I prefer the aesthetics of the Roland Units and the sound over Line 6 but I only trust them as far as i can throw them. They put out GR-55 without an editor, They deliberately disabled the PCM tones to be used with MIDI in, put out the GP-10 without 5-pin ports, and none of there units are MIDI Class-compliant. Not to mentioned there promos have been stuck in the 80's for 30 years I couldn't think of a more faceless  corporation in music right now. Still looking forward to the SY-300  ;D

I agree that their promos are HORRENDOUS.

Non-class compliant? Does that mean that it's not guaranteed to work with all MIDI gear? Some iPad apps are like that but you sort of understand there - not with synth gear costing several hundred pounds!

Deus02

Quote from: imerkat on June 22, 2015, 08:05:34 AM
Well, I'm with you there. I prefer the aesthetics of the Roland Units and the sound over Line 6 but I only trust them as far as i can throw them. They put out GR-55 without an editor, They deliberately disabled the PCM tones to be used with MIDI in, put out the GP-10 without 5-pin ports, and none of there units are MIDI Class-compliant. Not to mentioned there promos have been stuck in the 80's for 30 years I couldn't think of a more faceless  corporation in music right now. Still looking forward to the SY-300  ;D

Right now I own both Roland and Line 6 products and each has their own advantages and disadvantages and specific purposes, however, if Line 6 does have the edge is in 1. firmware updates on equipment that has even been around for awhile(HD500) and to many, even more importantly 2. regular feedback on their forums from the principles at the company.   This latter area is where Roland has always failed miserably.  As good and innovative Roland products have been over the years,  issues or questions that could be resolved almost immediately are essentially left to what are its most loyal customers to learn from trial and error. 

Elantric

#11
QuoteRight now I own both Roland and Line 6 products and each has their own advantages and disadvantages and specific purposes, however, if Line 6 does have the edge is in 1. firmware updates on equipment that has even been around for awhile(HD500) and to many, even more importantly 2. regular feedback on their forums from the principles at the company.   This latter area is where Roland has always failed miserably.  As good and innovative Roland products have been over the years,  issues or questions that could be resolved almost immediately are essentially left to what are its most loyal customers to learn from trial and error.

Above reflects my own thoughts as well - In fact as a result of Roland being is so out of touch with their customers,  our forum grows with a steady 250 new members each month.

But Line-6 is not perfect either - many members are here to share their Line-6 Variax Presets - (because despite offering a Variax in one form or another for over 12 years,  Line-6 is too lazy to update www.customtone.com to support trading Variax Workbench Patches ), so we have a diverse range of users seeking how to best use their tools, and share their lessons learned. 

imerkat

Quote from: Enticing_Scarab on June 22, 2015, 08:11:54 AM
Non-class compliant? Does that mean that it's not guaranteed to work with all MIDI gear?

Pretty much. I wanted to setup MIDI through the USB ports for a lighter pedal board but the Roland Gear would not work with the USB MIDI host for that reason. I tried to control some Line 6 & Eventide gear with the GR-55 but was unreliable (random parameters would change) which forced me to get a MIDI controller.

Quote from: Deus02 on June 22, 2015, 09:16:48 AM
2. regular feedback on their forums from the principles at the company.   This latter area is where Roland has always failed miserably.

It's a mystery to me how they come up with new products. You have the Boss DS-1X DSP pedals then the WazaCraft analog pedals ???. It's like they load up a shot gun with their old Ads, shoot it into the air, then collect pieces in the middle of the dark to come up with the new product line.

Enticing_Scarab

Quote from: imerkat on June 22, 2015, 10:49:03 AM
Pretty much. I wanted to setup MIDI through the USB ports for a lighter pedal board but the Roland Gear would not work with the USB MIDI host for that reason. I tried to control some Line 6 & Eventide gear with the GR-55 but was unreliable (random parameters would change) which forced me to get a MIDI controller.

That's shocking. So long as it connects to BIAS and some NI plugins through my DAW, I'll basically be happy, but that's a big blow if you're relying on a broad array of devices to use with it.

Roland do need to up their game in product support, and get a more streamlined guitar processor product range. As you say, it does seem to be a shotgun approach.

Litesnsirens

Quote from: gumtown on June 21, 2015, 02:26:56 PM
If you are comparing "apples with Line 6 Helix",
for all the pro level enhancements you want, the price must reflect on that too.

If the Helix is 3 x the price of the HD500, then you could expect the equivalent next pro level GR Synth to be 3 x $700.00
which would make it $2100.00

I for one would be willing to pay 3x the price for an improved GR guitar synth.  Maybe include integra sounds for the PCM or a fair portion of them.  I'm pretty happy with the straight out guitar tones I get out of the GR-55.  There are of course minor improvements/enhancements to be made, but tracking and latency on the PCM tones are the biggest hurdle they need to clear.  At any rate, as soon as they pull it off, I'm all in.

Baimun

I wouldn't mind seeing the GK-3 pickup being offered In White or Cream as well as the standard black.  Would be an easy add for Roland, and offer a variety of less conspicuous options like the cream on a spruce topped acoustic, or the white on a Hendrix Strat.


Mrchevy

Quote from: Baimun on November 23, 2016, 06:33:30 AM
I wouldn't mind seeing the GK-3 pickup being offered In White or Cream as well as the standard black.  Would be an easy add for Roland, and offer a variety of less conspicuous options like the cream on a spruce topped acoustic, or the white on a Hendrix Strat.

http://www.krylon.com/products/fusion-for-plastic/
Gibson Les Paul Custom
Epi Les Paul Standard
Gibson SG 50's prototype
Squire classic vibe 60's
Epi LP Modern
Epi SG Custom
Martin acoustic

Princeton chorus 210

GT100
GR-55
Helix LT
Waza Air Headphones
Boomerang III

And, a lot of stuff I DON'T need