Best 24 Bit IOS Audio Interface for Live Guitar

Started by Elantric, December 14, 2013, 04:13:00 PM

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Elantric

This thread is an idea exchange for seeking the best Guitar Audio interface for live gig use with iPad

Click here for iPad Audio Interface feature comparison details
http://auriaapp.com/Support/auria-audio-interfaces

Ringleader

#1
Tascam IUR2
This is quite possibly the most confusing product I have seen for iOS, mostly because I can't seem to find a manual anywhere for it but...

It appears to be an ios compatible I/O that is usb based (not headphone jack based) from Tascam for $40. It would think this would be a great deal, if I could find more info on the product to know what it all does!

Note: 16 bit

And it states: Supplies power to the iOS unit when connected to a USB bus (wtf?)

No iOS7/lightning compatibility at this time. http://www.tascam.eu/en/iur2.html

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/stupid/?icid=204625&noPopup=true

Elantric

#2
QuoteAfter the launch of Apple's iPhone 5s, iPhone5c and iOS7, Tascam would like to inform that iOS7 compatibility has not yet been confirmed for this product. Further information will follow. Please check this website regularly to find out whether this product is compatible with iOS7 or whether an update is available.



Myself I would avoid the Tascam IUR2, gets poor reviews on Amazon and its now considered a legacy Tascam product that micromanager Henry J of Gibson will veto placing any funds on further development.  (I.e No future Win /OSX drivers.  Add its known to be buggy with iPad too..

http://www.tascam.eu/en/iur2.html



Ringleader

Quote from:  Elantric on December 15, 2013, 08:37:53 AM


Myself I would avoid the Tascam IUR2, gets poor reviews on Amazon and its now considered a legacy Tascam product that micromanager Henry J of Gibson will veto placing any funds on further development.  (I.e No future Win /OSX drivers.  Add its known to be buggy with iPad too..

Where are you finding this info? No reviews on Amazon or anywhere else I looked.

Wait, is it the exact same product as the iU2?

Elantric

#4
www.amazon.com/TASCAM-iU2-Channel-Audio-Interface/dp/B0073AJ39E


www.tascam.eu/en/iur2.html

Read red warning top of the page on URL link above.
The iur2 is a euro variant on the iu2

Ringleader

Ok thanks, saw that. But I'm wondering if it would still work with the USB port via CCK. I bought one to try it since I want a cheap interface to keep at the teaching studio. If it sucks, back it goes.

Elantric

#6
Report your findings.
But Tascam is already reporting no compatiblity for IOS 7 which makes it not usable IMHO.
And look at the poor high tech track record of the current new owner of Tascam (Gibson), not going to hold my breath waiting for an IOS7  / IOS8 fix that never arrives.

Ringleader

#7
Regarding the Tascam iUR2... It doesn't work with iOS7.

With my iPad Air 7.0.4:

  • Via the built in 30 pin connection with genuine Apple adaptor: Displays message iUR2 is not compatible. I guess that's that.
  • Via the USB connection with genuine Apple lightning CCK: This really surprises me as I thought this would work for sure, but not so. It works great with JamUp for about 5 mins then oscillates into a horrible ring modulated distortion.
BUT, it is a dream interface with my Jailbroken iPhone 4 running iOS5 (yes you read that right, iOS5).

  • It works with or without USB power attached. Great for charging the iOS device but still portable when no outlet is available.
  • It sounds great. I really enjoy listening to music through it at work.
  • The MON MIX knob is so essential and not many iOS I/Os have this available on the unit itself. For example, I can now create videos with pro stereo audio on my phone. Turn it to 100% Input to hear exactly what is coming in, and turn it back to 100% Computer when watching the video to hear the recorded audio.
So it is running on borrowed time with my iPhone 4, but I'm going to keep it anyways since I cannot find any other interface that does so much so well (on my outdated device and OS) for anywhere near this price ($40). I really wish they would update it to work with iOS7 but I am not holding my breath.

Elantric

Ringleader - thanks for sharing the IUR2 with jailbroken iPhone 4 info .


Ringleader

I am really surprised that something about core audio was changed from iOS5 to iOS7 enough to break this device. If I were a manufacturer I would absolutely stay away from creating an iOS compatible device. Maintaining compatibility with iOS seems too risky.

On another note, the other night at Best Buy I saw a HDMI to lightning adapter cable and guess what? It had a courtesy lightning input on it for powering the iOS device while using it. WTF?? Why can't they make a CCK with this and just end all of this nonsense? Sorry, but after all the hoops us musicians have to jump through to simply power our iOS devices while using audio interfaces, this just pisses me off. [/rant].

Elantric

#10
QuoteI am really surprised that something about core audio was changed from iOS5 to iOS7 enough to break this device. If I were a manufacturer I would absolutely stay away from creating an iOS compatible device. Maintaining compatibility with iOS seems too risky.

Get used to it ;)

Many dedicated IOS Audio hardware  have departed the scene - notice the Alesis AmpDock Guitar iPad setup that never shipped due to apple IOS updates that killed some functions.



QuoteOn another note, the other night at Best Buy I saw a HDMI to lightning adapter cable and guess what? It had a courtesy lightning input on it for powering the iOS device while using it. WTF?? Why can't they make a CCK with this and just end all of this nonsense? Sorry, but after all the hoops us musicians have to jump through to simply power our iOS devices while using audio interfaces, this just pisses me off.


For me - its no big deal - every iPad i have lasts minimum 10 hours per charge.

Im not playing many gigs where the iPad would go dead at the 11th hour.

but there are many chinese knockoff USB Host to lightning adapter- and a few do work for our needs -
But most do not!
this one I tested Edit: I actually hoped this would work - but any attached USB Audio Interface connected to this Lighting USB Hub  cuts out after 5 minutes
http://www.tvc-mall.com/details/7-In-1-SD-MS-MMC-Card-Reader-USB-Hub-Camera-Connection-Kit-for-iPad-4-iPad-Mini-Digital-Cameras-IPADM-762/


Ringleader

I realize this is sooo O/T but seeing that Apple adapter makes me wonder why HDMI couldn't be the future format for pro audio I/Os? A single cable that provides HD video, audio, and midi all in one connection? I just bought some HDMI cables with ethernet capability so I know that HDMI is capable of transmitting more than just audio and video. Wonder if latency would be an issue? Anyhow, just a thought.

But... Apple needs to release a CCK with lightning charging port! Then we could do whatever we want with USB hubs, midi/audio devices, and never have to worry about the device power management again.

Elantric

#12
Quotemakes me wonder why HDMI couldn't be the future format for pro audio I/Os?

The hurdle for a product to use the HDMI logo there is the $10K per year HDMI License fee

http://www.hdmi.org/learningcenter/kb.aspx?c=2

Add that in the consumer space  - there are separate $10k  / year HDCP licensing fees  - required if you expect to connect to most consumer gear with an HDMI Input.
http://www.digital-cp.com/licensing

Which basically means for small startups, (that are lucky to have annual $20K profit per product  the first few years), makes HDMI  a non starter, and leaves it to the  Apple / Harman / Loud Technologies  / The Music Group of the world to get off their collective butts and deliver an HDMI audio I/O tech for DSP guitar.

Maybe I will see if any thing is on the horizon  next month at 2014 Winter NAMM

sixeight

Quote from:  Elantric on December 20, 2013, 08:02:58 AM
Many have departed - notice the Alesis Guitar iPad setup that never shipped due to apple IOS updates that killed some functions.
http://idesignsound.com/alesis-announce-ampdock-multi-effects-guitar-processor-for-ipad/



Pity this one never worked out. We do need something simple that just works without too much hassle in order to use the ipad in a live setting. A combination of a dock and a seperate pedal would seem ideal imho. Or even better. Just a floor pedal with connections for guitar, amp and XLR out and one cable to 30 pin or lightning connector on the ipad...

Ringleader

#14
Quote from:  sixeight on December 21, 2013, 03:29:31 AM
Pity this one never worked out. We do need something simple that just works without too much hassle in order to use the ipad in a live setting. A combination of a dock and a seperate pedal would seem ideal imho. Or even better. Just a floor pedal with connections for guitar, amp and XLR out and one cable to 30 pin or lightning connector on the ipad...

Digitech iPB-10? For lightning devices could use dock extender cable to 30 pin/lightning adaptor cable and mount ipad on mic stand. Someone should try to hack the iPB-10 to add the USB port mod like the Alesis IO dock.

Elantric

#15
IMHO, once you have tried a quality 24 bit Interface, there is no going back.

(read what works here:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=9581.0
Not all 24 bit interfaces work  - because the Guitar has special needs, and if the Guitar preamp on your interface is of a poor design, you will have clipping on transients or muffled tone if its not 1Meg input impedance.

So that leaves bulk of the 16 bit only Guitar interfaces designed for iPad in the "not recommended" category, specifically if you are going all IOS for your guitar FX and Amp  / Cab Sims (Bias, Jamup Pro , AmpKit, etc)

These are my list of interfaces which are not recommended and awaiting new owners  - as Ive "been there, done that, time to move on to higher quality 24 bit interfaces."

* Alesis IO2 (only way to get High Z impedance is set input to Guitar  - but yields severe clipping )
* Alesis IO Dock (16 bit Only and poor noise floor when used with IOS guitar sims )
* Behringer IS-202  (16 bit Only and poor noise floor when used with IOS guitar sims )
*
 

Ringleader

#16
Agreed about 16 vs. 24 bit. Sonuus i2m was cool but didn't sound as good as apogee JAM I already had. Apogee "one" is best I have heard yet for guitar interfaces. Although my Zoom G3 still sounds good to me, but mostly because I really like the built-in effects. Amp models not so much, especially after hearing bias.

I would add that getting an interface with dedicated outputs is also highly recommended. The headphone jack in the Apple devices isn't bad, but you will hear a difference in the output section from a more pro sound card, especially with guitar apps.

sixeight

Quote from: Ringleader on December 21, 2013, 06:20:00 AM
Digitech iPB-10? For lightning devices could use dock extender cable to 30 pin/lightning adaptor cable and mount ipad on mic stand. Someone should try to hack the iPB-10 to add the USB port mod like the Alesis IO dock.

For as far as I know the Digitech iPB-10 does not work with Bias or Jamup pro.

sixeight

Maybe a scarlett 6i6 is what I need. I only wonder if I can use the spdif inputs on an ipad.  I now use a Terratec phase 26, but it needs a powered hub to work, latency is still not quite optimal and the midi ports do not work on the ipad.

If the scarlett works, maybe with just an external power supply, then my setup would be simpler again. Is anyone able to test the spdif inputs on an ipad with Jamup/Bias?

Elantric

#19
QuoteMaybe a scarlett 6i6 is what I need.

Its beautiful thing to have a nice 24 bit Audio box with  MIDI I/O that works with iPad without all the monkey business -Scarlet 18i6 and 18i20 both work great - no need for a powered USB Hub.

Ive tried the Scarlett 2i4, but so far cant get it to work  

Edit -it works now! - Read details on posts below 


QuoteIs anyone able to test the spdif inputs on an ipad with Jamup/Bias?

I'll try to test - but as a tidbit of important info - Read the Focusrite Scarlett owners manual  - the "trick" is you need a Mac or PC to run the Scarlet Mix Control app  first - define your I/O settings you wish to use with iPad then click "Save To Hardware" - this writes the Scarlett I/O configuration to an internal flash rom in the scarlett hardware  - then when you connect the Scarlett to your ipad - it will use the pre-defined I/O settings that you stored in the hardware.   

http://global.focusrite.com/usb-audio-interfaces

http://d3se566zfvnmhf.cloudfront.net/sites/default/files/focusrite/downloads/9439/scarlett6i6-user-guideen.pdf





After my Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL fiasco - I was recently seeking yet another 8 channel Analog to ADAT convertor box - was looking at the new Behringer AD-8200  - but found a close out Scarlett 18i20 at Full Compass Audio for $360 - so I grabbed it and discovered I can use the  Scarlett 18i20 as a stand alone 8 channel analog to 8 channel optical ADAT interface - without a computer.


Click here for iPad Audio Interface feature comparison details
http://auriaapp.com/Support/auria-audio-interfaces

cooltouch

Quote from: Elantric on December 21, 2013, 08:16:40 AM
These are my list of interfaces which are now awaiting new owners  - as Ive "been there, done that, time to move on to higher quality.

* Alesis IO2 (only way to get High Z impedance is set input to Guitar  - but yields severe clipping )
* Alesis IO Dock (16 bit Only and poor noise floor when used with IOS guitar sims )
* Behringer IS-202  (16 bit Only and poor noise floor when used with IOS guitar sims )
*

I have an Alesis iO2 -- the later model. I believe yours is the earlier model? With mine, you have to turn the Gain up really high just to get the VU LEDs up into the yellow, then red, areas. And I haven't heard much in the way of clipping when they do. So this may have been a problem that Alesis has dealt with -- or whoever the actual designer of that box is. I've mentioned before, dunno if I did here, though, but the M-Audio M-Track is identical to the Alesis iO2. Only difference between them is the color of the box and the knobs. Having said all that, if I had it to do over again, I think I would have gone with a better product, like the Focusright 2i4 or, cost no object, a MOTU Audio Express.

Quote from: Ringleader on December 21, 2013, 08:25:46 AM
I would add that getting an interface with dedicated outputs is also highly recommended. The headphone jack in the Apple devices isn't bad, but you will hear a difference in the output section from a more pro sound card, especially with guitar apps.

Yeah, apparently Apple has "dumbed down" the output through their headphone jacks, especially in the lower frequencies. I was told this by Patrick Madden of Secret Bass Designs, the author of MIDIMorphosis for iOS, that its app doesn't track lower frequencies very well if the audio is being taken from the headphone jack. He recommends adapters using the Lightning connector instead, such as the Apogee Jam.
Best,
Michael

Ringleader

#21
Regarding the Focusrite stuff, I don't understand why their newer devices no longer include the hardware direct monitoring knob/switch. Since there isn't a dedicated app for controlling their devices, then you are at the mercy of how they designed the default behavior of the device when using on iOS (that is if they are even compatible with iOS at all as some are and others aren't).

Take a look at the 2i4 and notice the knob and also the stereo/mono switch, both very handy depending on what you are doing.
http://www.musicmatter.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/scarlett_2i4_front_back1.jpg

But the new 18i8 has neither if these:
http://www.hitsquad.com/files/focusrite-scarlett-18i8.jpg

Deal breakers on a higher end iOS interface, IMHO.


rolandvg99

Quote from:  Elantric
I ordered one of these, might take 3 weeks delivery from China.

http://www.tvc-mall.com/details/7-In-1-SD-MS-MMC-Card-Reader-USB-Hub-Camera-Connection-Kit-for-iPad-4-iPad-Mini-Digital-Cameras-IPADM-762/



I'll see if I can modify it to power the ipad too. I assume it cant  - but it does have a DC power pin jack to act as a USB powered hub for USB  attached gear. ( but it's not that big a deal to me since i get over 10 hours operational use on my ipad, and seldom play gigs that go longer than 4 hours. )


I can then connect FTP USB Receiver (for  MIDI Guitar), and a Focusrite Scarlett 18i6 (for  my 24 bit Audio I/O + 5pin MIDI I/O interface). The Focusrite Scarletts are the best sounding for the price ( as good as Apogee IMHO) 
I can also connect a KMI Softstep to the USB Hub, and have all my tools I need.
Plus i have option to use additional MIDI gear connect to the Scarlett 5pin MIDI I/O


I have one of these for the 30-pin iPad 3. It's not the best of quality, but works with my VG-99, Audiobox 22VSL and Zoom H6 for audio and my BCR-2000. The order of connection is crucial to get this on to work. Hub first, then connect power, audio card and midi. PS! It can only use one audio device, but multiple midi devices.
To V or not to V: That is the question.

My little Soundcloud corner

Ringleader

#23
Quote from:  Elantric

But the Focusrite 2I4 Will require a powered USB Hub to operate with iPad

Agreed that the device will need to be powered through the USB port, but a powered hub isn't the only option. Check this out:
http://auriaapp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=11150

It doesn't make sense to me why that mini hub is required for that to work though. If the power supply is supplying enough juice for the interface it should work without the hub. Sometimes adding a hub confuses the iPad's power supply restrictions and I'm wondering it that is what is going on there.

Elantric

#24
QuoteSince there isn't a dedicated app for controlling their devices

Actually Focusrite does have a dedicated Win / Mac app for setting their Scarlett USB Audio hardware  - just none for IOS
"Scarlett MixControl"



This thread is worth reading - I explain the reason many USB Audio interfaces require a powered USB Hub with ipad +CCK here:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=7831.msg57020#msg57020

Its due to Bulk Electrolytic caps inside the USB Audio's USB Interface temporarily exceeding  200mA "in-rush current" when the ipad is first powered up with an attached USB Audio device. 


QuoteAn important note is "The stipulations are that the interface has to be class-compliant (work without its own drivers under OS X) and require less than 200ma of power (otherwise you'll need an external supply)."

 
Its crucial that the Audio Device You want to use with iPad  / iPhone on IOS7 / IOS8 is either:

* An Apple MFI Listed approved audio device. (Alesis I/O Dock, Apogee Jam)
http://mfi.apple.com/faqs

or

* A "USB Class Compliant Audio Device" - which works without a USB driver, but will require the Apple USB Camera Adapter (Lightning Port) / Apple Camera Connection Kit (30 pin dock port), and possibly a third party Powered USB Hub.

Here is a partial list of USB Class Compliant Audio Devices.
http://auriaapp.com/Support/auria-audio-interfaces

Starting with IOS 4.1, Apple placed a restriction on the amount of power an external USB device can draw from the  Iphone / Ipad's Dock port  / Lightning port to 200mA  MAX.


To overcome this external USB device power restriction, use a Powered USB Hub between the Apple USB Camera Adapter and the Target USB Class Compliant Audio Device.

Background: Here is a site which explains typical USB Client USB architecture, and how many USB Audio and MIDI devices USB - UART chips are powered.


http://www.chameleon-dev.com/pmwiki.php/Community/AvrHardware


and a typical schematic:

At the top of the schematic above, you see an Arrow with the signal USB_5VOUT, this is the power coming in from the USB port (H1), which in our case is the IPAD. Many USB Audio and MIDI device's internal USB - UART chips (like U6 above) must be powered by the external USB Host device, and some of these chips draw excess of 200mA "in-rush current" momentarily while bulk 4.7uF Capacitors become charged, so you must use a Powered USB Hub which often can provide +5V @ 500mA, far in excess of the limited USB 5V @ 200mA supply current available by iPhone / iPad USB Camera Connection Kit adapters.


QuoteAgreed that the device will need to be powered through the USB port, but a powered hub isn't the only option. Check this out:
http://auriaapp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=11150

Good Tip!
======
http://auriaapp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=11150
fgplayerx wrote>
NOTE: This applies also to iTrack Solo. And possibly to other Scarlett or bus powered audio interfaces.

USB Powered? No powered USB Hub? No problem.

With these accessories, you will be able to remain completely mobile without the need of an electrical wall socket near by. I've tried this with an iPad Mini, a Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 and a Focusrite iTrack Solo -via USB CCK-.

First image: a Y-Cable to B-Type USB. And a mobile phone 800mA external battery USB power supply. 800mA was enough to power two phantom powered microphones.

Second image: a simple 2.0 USB Hub. With no power option available -unpowered-. And the Lightning to USB Camera Connection Kit adapter.




If you try to connect the already powered 2i2 with the Y-Cable directly to the CCK -without the Hub-, the iPad will tell you that it cant power the USB interface. But if you connect it through the Hub, it will work like a charm.

Try it out; and be free of wall sockets for a few hours.