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VGuitar Central => General Discussion => Topic started by: Elantric on July 15, 2011, 02:18:36 AM

Title: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: Elantric on July 15, 2011, 02:18:36 AM
Regarding the status of possible future Firmware updates this year for existing Roland products we discuss here at VGuitarforums,  It might be good to review Roland's recent Business Performance by market segment report here:

http://www.roland.com/ir/financial_category.html (http://www.roland.com/ir/financial_category.html)

and 2011 financial results
http://www.roland.com/ir/pdf/2011FinancialResultsandDividends.pdf (http://www.roland.com/ir/pdf/2011FinancialResultsandDividends.pdf)

As it reveals a significant drop in expected profit, due to the Japan Earthquake, Parts procurement problems, and lackluster sales of Boss pedals and multitrack recorders compared to a year ago.

QuoteIn the Electronic Musical Instruments Business, strong demand is expected mainly in emerging countries such as
China and Central and South America. Nevertheless, owing to a shortage of supply of products stemming from
uncertain parts procurement after the earthquake, net sales are expected to be flat year on year, and as for profit
and loss, operating loss is expected due to factors such as the deterioration in the rate of factory operation caused
by a decrease in production.

QuoteFor synthesizers, although such new products as battery-powered shoulder and mobile synthesizers contributed to sales and sales were upbeat compared to the previous consolidated fiscal year in Japan, Australia, and Brazil, sales of core products fell significantly, especially in North America and Europe.

In terms of electronic drums, sales of new low-end electronic drum products remained robust, both in Japan and overseas, and sales were up greatly year on year in Australia and Brazil. Despite these bright spots, however, sales of electronic drums were down overall, due to poor sales of mid-range and high-end products in North America and Southeast Asia. As a result, net sales for this segment fell by 25.8% year on year, to ¥18,364 million.
Guitar-related equipment    For guitar effects, sales of new mid-range multi-functional guitar effects were robust, and in Australia and Brazil they exceeded the sales of the previous consolidated fiscal year, but overall sales of guitar effects were down, due to factors including sluggish sales for large lineup of single-function compact guitar effects, especially in Japan. In the multi-track recorders category, a series of multi-track recorders also fell substantially, due to the impact of the contraction of the market. As a result, net sales for this segment fell by 23.6% year on year, to ¥9,018 million.
Home electronic musical instruments    Sales were robust for new digital piano products with the new SuperNATURAL Piano sound engine, which went on sale in Japan in the second half of the consolidated fiscal year under review, and sales for this category also increased year on year. The Company also focused on electronic accordions as a new business field, and sales grew in each local market. Nevertheless, the significant impact of reduced sales of digital pianos and electronic organs due to weak consumer spending, especially in North America, resulted in decline in net sales in this segment by 19.9% year on year, to ¥9,628 million.
Professional video, professional audio and computer music equipment    Sales of Computer music category increased as a result of adding a music-production software maker (Cakewalk, Inc.) as a new consolidated subsidiary. Sales of low-end music-production systems packaging software and hardware were also robust. Overall computer music sales, however, were sluggish, due mainly to declined sales of portable recorders caused by intensifying competition. Sales of video and professional audio equipment were down, due to reduced capital investment by broadcasters and other corporations. As a result, net sales for this segment fell by 17.5% year on year, to ¥5,714 million.
Others    Sales of products including sound engine for online karaoke machines and revenues from music schools declined. Overall net sales in this segment were down 18.2% year on year, to ¥2,760 million.

No doubt today's real unemployment rate of 22.7 % here in the USA is contributing to the overall lackluster sales of Roland Products in North America.

[source]
http://usawatchdog.com/real-unemployment-rate-2011/ (http://usawatchdog.com/real-unemployment-rate-2011/)

Roland US recently teamed with GE Capital to provide 12 months - no interest loans for Roland gear (subject to credit check)

http://www.rolandus.com/go/ge_money/ (http://www.rolandus.com/go/ge_money/)

In tough economic times like these, Roland Japan (who designs all the products) will be responding by re-prioritizing and re-tasking its limited engineering workforce to focus on creating brand new lower cost gear (with reduced feature set), to generate new sales revenue in the lower cost product market segments, as a response to today's cash strapped world economy.
I'm of the opinion they are not in a position today to place those same engineering resources creating new firmware, or adding new features to existing premium priced products with declining sales like the VG-99, VB-99 during a global economic recession.
Remember this is the same company that decided to cancel creating a GR-55 Editor and not adding a 1/4" Normal Guitar Input jack on the GR-55, deeming these too costly. Apparently lack of these items has not deterred the extremely high user demand and robust sales the GR-55 has been experiencing since its release this year.
The Roland Corporate Financial Officers call the shots, and I reluctantly agree their decisions have proved to be the smart decision.

The GR-55 is a hit, as reflected in the significant growth rate of www.VGuitarForums.com (https://www.vguitarforums.com) this year (We've more than doubled our numbers to (effective July 2011) to over 4000 members !)

Ever since the GR-55 was announced at Winter NAMM show in mid January 2011, we are growing at a rate of  250 (average ) new members each month. The good news,  key people at each Roland distributor around the globe are silently observing and paying attention to our discussions, and this will influence the direction of future products.   

I can only hope this will benefit us all with new improved products that effectively raise each of our personal expectations of what a guitar can sonically achieve in the 21st century. 

But to be honest, I would not hold my breath waiting for a possible future VB-99 or VG-99 or GR-55 firmware update during the present economic conditions.

Hopefully our collective luck will change for the better - and very soon!
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: germanicus on July 15, 2011, 08:49:53 AM
This reflects my conversation with Rolands Director of Sales Strategic Accounts at the gr55 clinic I attended in D.C. recently.

He basically told me that domestic sales of the vg99 were terrible, and they thought it was just too expensive for the market. Gr55 is the new model for price point and degree of feature set.

He didnt rule out a new vg product, but reading between the lines I wouldnt hold my breath. I love the vg99, but I would also wager that for a majority of those guitarists looking to get a VG/GR product, the gr55 feature set and price point makes much more sense. I think the dual modelling chains in the vg99 is fantastic and groundbreaking for many, but overall how many guitarists use that?
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: whippinpost91850 on July 15, 2011, 11:03:12 AM
THE PREMISE THAT IF WE MAKE IT CHEAP ENOUGH THEY WILL COME IS SILLY. CONSIDERING ALOT OF LIVE PERFORMERS WILL FIND THE PATCH DELAY ALONE,UNUSABLE.
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: whippinpost91850 on July 15, 2011, 11:25:41 AM
Didn't mean to be so negative in my last post. i'm loving alot of the capabilities of my GR55, but am finding the work around for the patch delay alone to be more expensive then, paying a little more for a more live usable unit. I don't know maybe It's just me.  I just like things (not neccessarily easy)to work
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: germanicus on July 15, 2011, 12:00:02 PM
Quote from: whippinpost91850 on July 15, 2011, 11:03:12 AM
THE PREMISE THAT IF WE MAKE IT CHEAP ENOUGH THEY WILL COME IS SILLY. CONSIDERING ALOT OF LIVE PERFORMERS WILL FIND THE PATCH DELAY ALONE,UNUSABLE.

Its not silly if they lose money as a result of the vg99 'kitchen sink' method and decide to dump that division.

I would much rather have roland playing smart with market demands than ignoring market pressures and then completely folding their guitar synth development department as a result of losing their ass on a product. Roland for all its faults, has been the torchbearer. I gotta hand it to them for that, and they continue to try and push new tech (ie why the V-Link is included on the vg99 and gr55 - an attempt to push the integration of sounds and live video). Id rather have better alternate tuning performance or quicker patch changes than V-link, but I dont think their resource consumption is equivalent.

Just look at how many companies have stuck their feet into the water of guitar synths and are either no longer in business or gave up on it (this is regardless of how good their products were)....

yamaha....
axon...
K-Muse photon...
Gibson (shadow system)...
Parker (MidiAxe, their onboard midi conversion guitar)...
G Vox...
Casio...
IVL...
Korg...
Zeta...
Passac...
Optek...

Roland is really all there is in terms of a robust live playable setup of this stuff at the moment.
Not much else out there. Sonus mono midi converter and the Keith McMillan stringport. Everything else is vaporware or out of production.

Dont get me wrong id love a vg100 with two modelling chains AND 2 onboard pcm synths with updated COSM everything and crazy effects routing. Id pay a large deal for it as well. But Im (we) are very much in the minority im afraid.
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: MCK on July 15, 2011, 12:26:23 PM
Great analysis and views extended in this thread. In the software world bugfixes & maintenance releases are a cost element while new version upgrades are a potential profit generator. I suspect similar thoughts apply here for Roland. I can understand the relative diminishing of the higher end market for a VG99 follow-on and I can understand the lack of enthusiasm for free software updates.

There could be two ways out of the rut that I can see. One is to opensource the code and I'm pretty sure this will not happen given the propriety nature of the technology at hand and how it would possibly clobber the potential future product ranges from Roland.

The other option is to make chargeable updates. I for one would not mind paying a yearly subscription to receive a reasonable updates and a guarantee for bug fixes. This could at the very least enable Roland to keep funding 1 or 2 engineers to be allocated to the VG99 firmware updates.
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: Elantric on July 15, 2011, 01:35:30 PM
QuoteThe other option is to make chargeable updates.

I would pay for a VG-99 update.

Roland did something similar back in 1996 for the Roland VS-880 V-Studio.

They charged $100 for a VS-880-S1 "System Expansion Kit"update that was available from Roland, only as a Iomega ZIP Disk which contained the new firmware update.

It forced me to buy a Iomega SCSI Zip drive for another $179


http://web.archive.org/web/19970615031127/http://www.rolandus.com/products/MI/MIprod_PA.html#VS-880-S1 (http://web.archive.org/web/19970615031127/http://www.rolandus.com/products/MI/MIprod_PA.html#VS-880-S1)

The problem is that in 2011, Roland Corp in the USA will not update their web server to support secure sales cart for software downloads - and they figure they will only sell 20% of the potential new "VG-99 Version 2.0 update " sales - before free bootleg copies show up on the Torrent sites.
 

---

The VS-880-S1 extends the recording, mixing and editing power of the revolutionary VS-880 Digital Studio Workstation. New VS-880-S1 features include auto mixing functions, new effects such as a COSM-based Microphone Simulator, and expanded recording and sync features.

Features:
New Auto Mixing function records and plays back comprehensive mixing data in realtime without the use of an external sequencer
New COSM-based Microphone Simulator faithfully emulates the characteristics of classic microphones and can even simulate the effects of mic distance from sound source
New mixer Snap Shot mode allows for changing effects and mixer settings in realtime
10 new effects algorithms with 100 new presets:

    Voice Transformer
    Mic Simulator
    19-band Vocoder
    Hum Canceler
    "Lo-Fi" Multimedia Sound Processor
    Space Chorus
    Reverb with "gate" and "ducking" modes
    Space Chorus
    4-band Parametric EQ
    10-band Graphic EQ
    Vocal Canceler

New effects insert and routing options including master inserts for using EQ and compression on the entire mix; 2 simultaneous reverbs
Simultaneous playback of six tracks recorded in MASTER mode
New easy method for recording w/ EQ and effects
Enhanced disk drive functions including disk reliability check and disk repair
Sync Track/Tempo map generation from marker points
Improved editing features with locate point buttons; new Shift Lock mode
Effects selection and parameter adjustment in realtime via MIDI


Here's a long time VS-880 user who makes good use of the "VS-880-S1" update

http://createdigitalmusic.com/2011/01/a-stunning-live-performance-on-rolands-1996-workstation-vs-880/ (http://createdigitalmusic.com/2011/01/a-stunning-live-performance-on-rolands-1996-workstation-vs-880/)

Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: MCK on July 15, 2011, 02:11:22 PM
Hah. I recall the zip drives. Sunk so much money into so many similar dead end tech... Oh well. You are right of course as usual. Good thing VG99 has so much to offer that I have yet to master!
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: whippinpost91850 on July 15, 2011, 02:14:09 PM
I'ld pay for a GR55 update. Too bad a few bad apples might spoil it for everybody.
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: aliensporebomb on July 15, 2011, 10:40:12 PM
Sure I'd pay for an update - heck I've done it before.

I've still got my Roland VS-840 which I was able to turn into a VS-840EX by using a software update on ZIP disc Roland produced - I think it was about $55.
I still use it for effecting and routing my analog guitar rig (Boogie StuPre + Lexicon + TC gear) using its digital out into my computers' digital in.

That being said - I'd be EXTREMELY leary of updating a $1400 piece of equipment using an illegal download from a torrent site - brrrrr, no thanks!  Legit all the way.
You need to have recourse from a manufacturer when it's a piece of gear you rely on and use to run your music business.

Face it - things are tough all over.  That earthquake in Japan just being one problem.  My previous day gig was IT in the securities industry.  Around 2005 I moved to IT work in the real estate sector just before it blew a gasket and things got very bad - I don't really know if things will ever go back to the way they were but I do admit the VG-99 is an expensive device - it can do some spectacular things and it can do some things that other devices have probably eclipsed it some.    But most of the guitarists I know are not using this type of setup - they've got a Strat or a Les Paul and a Fender or Marshall amp and some pedal effects.  Or a more modern guitar and some type of low to medium priced modeler.

But I'm not "most guitarists" (link to footage from most recent gig):
Ionosphere Casting Shadows Live at ConvergenceCon 2011 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4dJ39SJuMk#ws)

-Yes the market is in a down economy. 
-Yes these are specialty devices that are expensive (the GR-55 less so but still a fair chunk of change).
-Yes, guitarists are arch traditionalists who don't often explore the far out reaches of sound but mine well worn "safe" paths.
-Yes, many guitarists are often seeking out the guitars and gear their musical heroes played.  Only a handful of "names" seem to play the VG-99.
-Yes the guitarists who would buy a VG-99 would have their hands full exploring the box just as-is.

But in some ways Roland has itself to blame for the poor sales:
-Little to no marketing in music magazines for the VG-99.  What marketing there was didn't play to the devices' strengths.
-The two ads I did see poorly illustrated the product capabilities and I didn't actually even think of buying one until the Premiere Guitar article plus Bill Ruppert's samples.
-The display kiosks I've seen for the VG-99 were only briefly operational.  Just long enough to make me go "yeah, I want one".
-One was pulled out of the store I was trying it out in two summers ago and was never returned to the sales floor.
-That same kiosk started to exhibit display screen problems (not the VG-99 but the little video display that shows the capabilities with little buttons that played segments
of the video) so maybe that's why but...
-The other had a partially-functional GK cable and I would often find the kiosk and VG shut off or a salesperson pushed a half-stack in front of it so you didn't even know
  it was there.  You had to look for it.

I always had before made sure these things were on and working and I'd sometimes demo the stuff while in the store but it's sort of a futile errand. 

As far as the GR-55 - that device does appear to have a lot more interest and notoriety than the VG-99.  The marketing appears more spot-on and just finding one to buy is difficult since the demand is still there.  I don't rule out getting one at some point but I'd actually consider getting a second VG-99:  I want to run four paths of COSM audio
at some point with my custom patches.

But maybe the market finds it a tough sell to push a product with a several year learning curve?  Most players don't have the patience.

I've pretty much given up on the software update of old but if I can illustrate the nylon guitar hysteresis problem maybe they'll fix that one. 


Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: tekrytor on July 16, 2011, 11:58:35 AM
First, Kudos Ion Man for posting your lovely spatial immensity! Let's get ethereal! Shades of Kitaro, Gilmore and Eno.

I second the paid upgrade option. Around 1985, I paid Roland $ 17 plus postage for an official EPROM (remember those) upgrade for my GR-700 (remember those), which provided significant performance improvment. I would gladly pay for factory upgrades and that is one reason why I believe in Roland. Their customer service has always treated me like a rock star despite my much lower position on the food chain. I think they take us musicians, pro and amateur, seriously. They also know many of us are lifelong buyers, like cars, we may not but every year, but when we so make a major purchase, they want to be the one. Their products are always at the top of my wish lists because they know what I want and they treat me right. Times may be bad, but Roland will be there for us, trying as hard as they can in a very tough environment for then too.
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: cynegetic on July 16, 2011, 04:41:33 PM
While I lave the 99. Because of their lack of support I will not buy another roland product unless the sound if out makes me wet my pants.

I mean jeez the can't even update their editor to reflect the changes in the last firmware update from how long ago?
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: Vgunn on July 16, 2011, 06:23:33 PM
Quote from: cynegetic on July 16, 2011, 04:41:33 PM
While I lave the 99. Because of their lack of support I will not buy another roland product unless the sound if out makes me wet my pants.

I mean jeez the can't even update their editor to reflect the changes in the last firmware update from how long ago?

Do they even make an editor?   I thought the editor was something created by a user-fan?
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: cynegetic on July 16, 2011, 10:04:17 PM
Yes. The 99 haas an official editor. Pretty good one too.
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: aliensporebomb on July 16, 2011, 10:21:54 PM
Yes, the official editor works well.  The 55 is the unit that had a fan created editor.

Re: Germanicus' quote about the Roland staffer who said the sales of the VG-99 were "Terrible".
How many of these did they sell I wonder?  <10,000 surely?  <5,000?  Anyone have a ballpark figure of VG-owners who signed up on this board prior to the GR-55 release?

How many people took advantage of the group buy?  Just to get an idea of what RolandUS figures was "terrible".
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: Elantric on July 17, 2011, 07:34:13 AM
 The VG-88  had a User created Editor.
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=downloads;cat=20 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=downloads;cat=20)


With the VG-99, we have a post called "Top things to know"
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=13.0 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=13.0)


which describes the requirement to toss away the Factory VG-99 software CD that comes in the box, because everything on it is stale.

With the VG-99, they released firmware 1.04 in December 2007 within 6 months of 1st release, which ALL VG-99 USERS NEED TO VERIFY THEY ARE USiNG VG-99 VERSION 1.04 !

If your VG-99 is still using an earlier version, you will not be able to load any patches we have here. With VG-99 firmware 1.04 , Roland rewrote the internal structure of everything, which means you must use VG-99 Editor and Librarian Version 1.01, and not version 1.00 which is on the VG-99 software CD.


VG-99 Editor and Librarian Version 1.01 must be downloaded.

For a while there were no Win7 drivers, but that changed.

Today there are downloads available to run the VG-99 on many operating systems with an Editor and Librarian that are 100% effective with the latest VG-99 firmware 1.04

But none of these are on the VG-99 software CD.

Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: kenact on July 17, 2011, 01:46:18 PM
Quote from: germanicus on July 15, 2011, 12:00:02 PMJust look at how many companies have stuck their feet into the water of guitar synths and are either no longer in business or gave up on it (this is regardless of how good their products were)....

And don't forget Fender, who has stopped production on their Squier Strat Midi Controller/Guitar.
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: audiotrax on July 17, 2011, 08:00:20 PM
Here's my 2 cents:  I still wish they would come up with a full-featured GI-20 style MIDI only guitar interface with the GR55's form factor.  Just the MIDI out - no sounds or modeling.  It could be much cheaper than the '55 but still have significant interest for the guitar to MIDI crowd.  Let's face it - soft synths and samplers rule these days for recording.

If it's at all possible come out with another JUNO 60 type all analog synth for the common man.  If someone is interested in a hardware synth, I think it's what everyone wants. Not another piece of hardware based on modeling. Please Roland take an example from the hideous failure that the hi-end Jupiter 80 is.
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: aliensporebomb on July 18, 2011, 11:59:10 AM
Quote from: Elantric on July 17, 2011, 07:34:13 AM
The VG-88  had a User created Editor.
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=downloads;cat=20 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=downloads;cat=20)


With the VG-99, we have a post called "Top things to know"
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=13.0 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=13.0)


which describes the requirement to toss away the Factory VG-99 software CD that comes in the box, because everything on it is stale.

With the VG-99, they released firmware 1.04 in December 2007 within 6 months of 1st release, which ALL VG-99 USERS NEED TO VERIFY THEY ARE USiNG VG-99 VERSION 1.04 !

If your VG-99 is still using an earlier version, you will not be able to load any patches we have here. With VG-99 firmware 1.04 , Roland rewrote the internal structure of everything, which means you must use VG-99 Editor and Librarian Version 1.01, and not version 1.00 which is on the VG-99 software CD.


VG-99 Editor and Librarian Version 1.01 must be downloaded.

For a while there were no Win7 drivers, but that changed.

Today there are downloads available to run the VG-99 on many operating systems with an Editor and Librarian that are 100% effective with the latest VG-99 firmware 1.04

But none of these are on the VG-99 software CD.

I wonder if the VG editor/librarian software will operate on Mac OS X Lion which should be out in a few days - I'm a little reluctant to update until I hear it's okay..
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: Elantric on July 18, 2011, 01:03:43 PM
I'm holding off updating to Lion too. I expect many issues with all my hardware until new Lion OSX drivers are released.
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: Jim Williams on July 18, 2011, 01:50:08 PM
Regarding firmware updates, when you pay this much for a product you should expect updates. If you buy software you get updates when you register right? Even microsoft Windows updates and microsoft is the most money hungry corporation that I can think of. If hard times are to blame for companies giving us garbage for way to much money it is time for us to raise our voices louder and louder and force corporations to give us our money worth. I work hard for my money and I expect that I get what I pay for. My VG-99 and GR-55 are very good units but what I paid for them, I have paid for updates and I want what I paid for. We are all being ripped off by the fat cats sitting in plush corporate offices, forcing us to except meritocracy while they get rich off the sweat off our backs.

I feel the need to modify this post I was rather harsh and I may have rambled a bit....I still believe that the cost of a product should include updates. This is my opinion and in no way do I wish to stop purchasing Roland products, I still believe they are the best gear out there. I am sorry if my other thought offended anyone.
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: whippinpost91850 on July 18, 2011, 02:00:42 PM
  Having previously run a business for 18yrs, I don't know that I would go quite that far, not everyone running a business is getting fat;but when there are obvious problems that show up in "the real world "I feel they should be addressed.
  I just spent another $225 (ordered RJM Y-not) to do a work-around for the MIDI switching mute/delay. I'll post my finding once I get it and see If it at least solves this problem.
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: Elantric on July 18, 2011, 02:12:24 PM
QuoteI just spent another $225 (ordered RJM Y-not) to do a work-around for the MIDI switching mute/delay.

And how is the "RJM Y-not" going to solve the GR-55's patch change Mute delay?
http://www.rjmmusic.com/ynot.php (http://www.rjmmusic.com/ynot.php)

Describe your signal flow.

Instead I use a Line6 HD500. Feed the HD-500 Input from the GR-55 Guitar output.

Feed the GR-55 Output to the HD-500's stereo Loop Return, and use the HD500 to change all patches and to kick the GR-55 in & out of the signal path, using its switched Stereo FX loop.
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: whippinpost91850 on July 18, 2011, 02:44:45 PM
I use an Egnater IE4 (midi channel switching)preamp to a PV tube power amp to a 2-12 cab for my reg guitar sound. By running a cable directly from my guiar to the Y-not to my Preamp in , I will be able switch channels with no delay or mute my guitar when only the GR55 alone is in use. I think I will also be able to switch my 2 inline pedals in line as well. I'll run a seperate MIdi cable directly to my preamp,bypassing the GR55 ,ergo avoiding the delay 8). I think I said that right. I'll try and post video on line once I get it set up.
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: whippinpost91850 on July 18, 2011, 02:47:35 PM
I meant I would run a Midi out from my preamp to the Gr55 ::)
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: whippinpost91850 on July 18, 2011, 02:50:28 PM
Elantric, What pedal are using for program change ?
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: Elantric on July 18, 2011, 03:33:42 PM
The HD500 can control everything on the GR-55 via MIDI .

(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi3.squidoocdn.com%2Fresize%2Fsquidoo_images%2F250%2Fdraft_lens17558070module147705621photo_1295677013pod_hd500_top_and_back.jp&hash=f53bc9e4a6c030e19e871cbf8006fcda6f09d3b4)
The GR-55 sits separately off to the side, as a signal processor only..
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: MCK on July 18, 2011, 03:41:12 PM
Glad to see you finally found a good use for the HD500  ;D ;D ;D  Sorry... Couldn't let you get by without a tease there... What a let down the whole HD500 & new VariAx debacle has turned out to be hasn't it...
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: Elantric on July 18, 2011, 03:53:42 PM
Life will be perfect in September 2011 when I (finally) get my JTV-69 and mount a GK-3 to it.

Basically the rig will be the JTV-69, HD-500, GR-55, and Jam man Looper  - = a clone of Germanicus's rig.

Until then, I'll keep my current rig - which i only use 10% of for the surf band:
(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.denturesurfmusic.com%2FPhotos%2Fside.jpg&hash=59d8daf082220adc1bdb5f37217e4ed913eba528)

http://www.denturesurfmusic.com/ (http://www.denturesurfmusic.com/)
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: whippinpost91850 on July 18, 2011, 04:08:39 PM
iI must be missing something when I use the guitar out on the GR55, I still get the mute/delay. I am not doing program change from the GR55
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: Elantric on July 18, 2011, 04:09:08 PM
QuoteWhat a let down the whole HD500 & new VariAx debacle has turned out to be hasn't it...

Nowhere near as bad a let down as the Dark Fire ;)
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: Elantric on July 18, 2011, 04:11:25 PM
QuoteiI must be missing something when I use the guitar out on the GR55, I still get the mute/delay. I am not doing program change from the GR55


Actually I have a custom normal PU routing bypass box built into a modified US-20, and that is what is feeding the HD-500

More details here:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=2940.msg20799#msg20799 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=2940.msg20799#msg20799)
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: whippinpost91850 on July 18, 2011, 04:17:07 PM
THAT EXPLINS IT. I THOUGH I HAD JUST COMPLETLY MISSED SOMETHING. THANKS FOR THE INFO.
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: Elantric on July 18, 2011, 05:21:43 PM
Quote
QuoteiI must be missing something when I use the guitar out on the GR55, I still get the mute/delay. I am not doing program change from the GR55

I'll try to look at this tonight and see if there is a work around.

My hunch is that if the GR-55's Guitar Out is always assigned to be "Normal Guitar", for all patches, this might avoid the GR-55 Guitar Out "Mute" during every GR-55 patch change.
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: whippinpost91850 on July 18, 2011, 05:25:58 PM
Awesome that would certainly be a less expensive alternative.Because of work I wont be able to get back to my rig until Friday. Thanks
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: MCK on July 19, 2011, 12:10:05 AM
Quote from: Elantric on July 18, 2011, 04:09:08 PM
Nowhere near as bad a let down as the Dark Fire ;)

Touchee! Well played!  ;D

PS. Great website for the Dentures.
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: whippinpost91850 on July 19, 2011, 02:35:19 PM
Elantric, did you happen to get a chance to try the guitar direct out routing ?
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: Elantric on July 19, 2011, 02:58:15 PM
It mutes with every patch change  - so if the mute bothers you (as it does me), its best to feed normal guitar output to an entirely separate audio signal path.

I use a POD HD500
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: whippinpost91850 on July 19, 2011, 03:17:06 PM
Thanks, I thought that was the case. I'll try my work around this weekend.
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: aliensporebomb on July 20, 2011, 02:26:43 PM
Any chance of having an outboard reverb unit to have a carryover "tail" to whatever sound you play prior to the cutoff then when the patch changes the tail will still sound?  I suppose that presupposes the sound you're working with having a tail would be desirable.
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: Now_And_Then on July 22, 2011, 05:32:32 PM
Quote from: MCK on July 18, 2011, 03:41:12 PM
What a let down the whole HD500 & new VariAx debacle has turned out to be hasn't it...

Could you explain this a bit? Although I, personally, find the new VariAxes to be somewhat uncompelling, and I find the HD series to be very uncompelling, the posts which I've read on their forum do not seem to suggest any sort of debacle.
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: MCK on July 22, 2011, 07:07:43 PM
Sure. Perhaps mine were not well chosen words. I was mainly referring to how the new VariAxes are almost a year behind schedule and how at release time they were introduced as the best partner for a HD500 etc. No big deal really.
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: Now_And_Then on July 23, 2011, 04:26:34 AM
Quote from: MCK on July 22, 2011, 07:07:43 PM
Sure. Perhaps mine were not well chosen words. I was mainly referring to how the new VariAxes are almost a year behind schedule and how at release time they were introduced as the best partner for a HD500 etc. No big deal really.

Ah, I see. No problem; I was just concerned that there might be technical or build problems with either product which would make them bad investments.
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: Now_And_Then on July 23, 2011, 05:12:07 AM
Quote from: germanicus on July 15, 2011, 08:49:53 AM
This reflects my conversation with Rolands Director of Sales Strategic Accounts at the gr55 clinic I attended in D.C. recently.

He basically told me that domestic sales of the vg99 were terrible, and they thought it was just too expensive for the market. Gr55 is the new model for price point and degree of feature set.

He didnt rule out a new vg product, but reading between the lines I wouldnt hold my breath. I love the vg99, but I would also wager that for a majority of those guitarists looking to get a VG/GR product, the gr55 feature set and price point makes much more sense. I think the dual modelling chains in the vg99 is fantastic and groundbreaking for many, but overall how many guitarists use that?

I think that this is the problem right here: the insistence of making an all-in-one-box product.

As far as I can tell, it a mistake to think that a guitarist who wants the COSM-processor part of the VG would also necessarily want the guitar-to-midi part. I would think that (to take an example) a $1000 VG-99 with *no* guitar-to-midi capability would have sold better than the VG-99 *with* midi capability that they actually released. The number guitarists interested in guitar-to-midi is but a very, very small fraction of the number of guitarists interested in effects boxes and pedals - every guitarist I know and have ever known has been interested in effects boxes and pedals, whereas the number of those interested in midi, well, you know...

As soon as I read the specs for the VG-99, i.e. before it had even come to market, I was very perturbed by the inclusion of a guitar-to-midi capability, because I know that this is expensive technology, and so I knew that this capability was a part, and probably a big part, of the reason why the VG-99 was so expensive. And not only is it expensive, but Roland's technology is all not all that great.

A $1400 box is not the place for someone to first experience guitar-to-midi conversion. I would think that anyone interested in it would already have some sort of Roland guitar synth (or maybe an Axon etc), in which case the guitar-to-midi capability in the VG-99 simply increases the price while giving the buyer a capability which he already has in a different unit. It is redundant. Anyone not interested in guitar-to-midi conversion might simply think that the VG-99 is not a good buy because it is too expensive, and comes with a guitar-to-midi capability that he does not want and therefore represents to him wasted money. It is a feature that not everyone finds attractive or useful. But it does increase the price for everyone, and more than likely it increases the price to the point where it decreases sales.

To me, it just seems to be a strategic error to take a system composed of discrete components and combine them in a needless way. The mere fact that both guitar-to-midi and COSM guitars use GK/hex pickups is not really a compelling reason to bundle the two technologies together.




Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: germanicus on July 23, 2011, 09:24:13 AM
Quote from: Now_And_Then on July 23, 2011, 05:12:07 AM
I think that this is the problem right here: the insistence of making an all-in-one-box product.

As far as I can tell, it a mistake to think that a guitarist who wants the COSM-processor part of the VG would also necessarily want the guitar-to-midi part. I would think that (to take an example) a $1000 VG-99 with *no* guitar-to-midi capability would have sold better than the VG-99 *with* midi capability that they actually released. The number guitarists interested in guitar-to-midi is but a very, very small fraction of the number of guitarists interested in effects boxes and pedals - every guitarist I know and have ever known has been interested in effects boxes and pedals, whereas the number of those interested in midi, well, you know...

As soon as I read the specs for the VG-99, i.e. before it had even come to market, I was very perturbed by the inclusion of a guitar-to-midi capability, because I know that this is expensive technology, and so I knew that this capability was a part, and probably a big part, of the reason why the VG-99 was so expensive. And not only is it expensive, but Roland's technology is all not all that great.

A $1400 box is not the place for someone to first experience guitar-to-midi conversion. I would think that anyone interested in it would already have some sort of Roland guitar synth (or maybe an Axon etc), in which case the guitar-to-midi capability in the VG-99 simply increases the price while giving the buyer a capability which he already has in a different unit. It is redundant. Anyone not interested in guitar-to-midi conversion might simply think that the VG-99 is not a good buy because it is too expensive, and comes with a guitar-to-midi capability that he does not want and therefore represents to him wasted money. It is a feature that not everyone finds attractive or useful. But it does increase the price for everyone, and more than likely it increases the price to the point where it decreases sales.

To me, it just seems to be a strategic error to take a system composed of discrete components and combine them in a needless way. The mere fact that both guitar-to-midi and COSM guitars use GK/hex pickups is not really a compelling reason to bundle the two technologies together.

Well, if they were to cut features, I would much have rather had them pull out the D-Beam/Ribbon controller/V- Link than the midi converter. Inclusion of the Midi Converter in the VG series was something people had been requesting roland include for years.

Personally I like the inclusion of both functions in one box, and I think a reason why the gr55 is doing as well as it is, is due to the inclusion of the COSM modelling.  It covers up for 'missed' notes on the lower strings. While I think the midi conversion in the gr55 is improved over previous gr's, I think having the COSM added on top goes a long way in giving the overall impression of a much higher degree of tracking accuracy in the combined patches. Its almost a fake out in a sense.

What would be great is if there were different versions of the vg99 or gr55 with scaling price levels. This is probably impractical from a design/manufacturing standpoint, but would be nice to allow the user to choose the unit with the features that matter to them.

Id love a floor unit with the vg99's dual modelling chains, full alternate tuning capabilities, 2 PCM synths from the gr55, but without a D-beam or ribbon controller or v-link.
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: vanceg on July 24, 2011, 02:33:48 AM
I'd be happy to pay for an update to the VG-99.

I'd pay quite a lot for a VG-100 with only a few more features.

I also have to agree that Roland only has itself to blame for lackluster sales in the US.  The marketing for the VG was...Sad...at best.

But I also suspect that it won't be Roland who will end up making the device I eventually use as the next evolutionary step past the VG-99. 

But hey - the VG-99 has a LOT to offer that I have yet to explore. Lots and lots.  Like most all Roland products, I just fell like "this COULD be so very great...if you just hadn't dumbed it down".


Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: vanceg on July 24, 2011, 02:43:16 AM
Quote from: germanicus on July 23, 2011, 09:24:13 AM
Id love a floor unit with the vg99's dual modelling chains, full alternate tuning capabilities, 2 PCM synths from the gr55, but without a D-beam or ribbon controller or v-link.

I could do without the PCM synths in the GR-55 for sure. I just can't take those sounds. If there was something as interesting as the V-synth, then yeah, I'd be interested in "built in" synths...but that's not going to happen. I think the inclusion of Pitch to MIDI in the VG-99 was a good idea...they just botched the implementation pretty badly. One primary problem seems to be that the GK sensitivity that it useful for Pitch to MIDI seems to make the modeling sound bad, and if you set the GK sensitivity for the bet modeling sound, the Pitch to MIDI goes out the window. At least a large number of people have experienced this.

I agree with you about V-link: That's an essentially worthless technology to me. It's really a less-useful version of MIDI control of video from audio products. I can (and do) do a LOT more a LOT easier with MIDI than I can with Vlink. Silly Roland internal control standard.  Absurd.
Personally I like the dbeam and the ribbon controller...but I'm a controller nut.
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: aliensporebomb on July 25, 2011, 02:46:10 PM
I was recently at a convention where I was part of a panel describing the music technology - on the panel was a keyboardist who uses a laptop with softsynth, a sound designer for motion pictures, a keyboardist who uses a lot of hardware synths and another guitarist who uses a lot of stompboxes with a looping pedal and me.

Since all of us were gigging at the convention we all were talking to an interested audience on what our gear is and what it did.

ALL of the them became very fascinated with my gear when I mentioned one of the features is you can use your playing to control a lightshow.  The other stuff was cool but the idea if using your playing to control things like that really amazed them.

I do agree that the D-Beam and ribbon controller are items that the machine could do without (but I do like that they are there) but I definetely would want a guitar-to-midi capability myself.

VanceG's comments regarding the Guitar-to-Midi implementation on the VG99 is correct: you need the absolute sweet spot of low sensitivity settings for the GK setting in order to do both guitar-to-midi and cosm guitar sounds.   The desired side-effect of this is if they're at the sweet spot you control your dynamics on the guitar side much like a guitar thru a tube amp.  At least in the patches I've done.  And then the MIDI works decently.

As far as marketing goes - well, after the first ad for this thing I just didn't see any more.  The GR-55 I'm seeing ads in Guitar Player every month now.

Is it "it's selling, let's run a bunch of ads to sell more" in the case of the 55 or is it "The VG-99 isn't selling, why bother with ads when it's just going to sit there gathering dust?"

Why not sneak a VG-99 image into the GR-55 ad?  Nah, never happen.  "Let's not confuse them."
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: Now_And_Then on July 29, 2011, 08:41:42 PM
 Let's look at this from the standpoint of "Why did the VG-99 sell so badly?"

Here are some of the facts I look at when I attempt to answer this question:

01) Roland has had a variety of midi-guitar boxes, including both the GI series and the GR series, all of which did well enough to warrant follow-on devices.

02) The VG-8 "first edition" was, both in relative and absolute dollars, far more expensive than the VG-99 but seemed to have sold quite well. 'Course, I don't have any actual numbers, but it was evidently good enough to prompt Roland to work on and release 2 updates (the S1 update and the EX update) and a follow-on device, the VG-88.

03) The VG-88 "v1" seems to have been, both in relative and absolute dollars, less expensive than either the VG-8 or the VG-99. It seems to have sold fairly well, if only to judge by the fact that Roland was willing to invest the necessary engineering talent and other resources for both the v2 update, and the VG-99 follow-on device.

04) Roland has released two "combo boxes" combining both effects-box and guitar-to-midi capability. The GR-55 seems to be quite successful, whereas the VG-99's sales are "terrible". Note that the GR-55's street price is roughly half that of the VG-99.

05) I must note that a Fractal Audio Axe-FX Ultra or II is over $2100 (50% more than the VG-99) and Fractal can not make them fast enough to keep them in stock - and (as far as I know) they have NO retail brick-and-mortar presence whatsoever. Obviously I have no idea what their sales figures are or how they compare to the numbers for the VG-99, but the fact that people are willing to wait in line for months to get one is telling.

Looking at all this, the conclusion at which I arrive is that the VG-99 was the wrong product at the wrong price.
A) A combination fx/midi box sells well at $700,
B) A combination fx/midi box sells very badly at $1400.
C) A dedicated fx box can sell quite well at $2100 (Axe-FX) or even more (taking into account the original VG-8 series, which were even more expensive, both in then-year dollars and current dollars.)
D) See B.

**********************************************

From my perspective, i.e. the perspective of someone who has a GR-09, a GR-33, and an AX-100 mkII, the inclusion of guitar-to-midi in the VG-99 was a complete waste of money for me. At least with the GR series, using the internal sounds was close to being plug-and-play and gives those boxes a convenience factor that is simply not present in the VG-99 - and wouldn't be there even if it were implemented correctly, which according to posts here, it isn't. (This opens up another possibility - or, if you prefer, can of worms: the VG-99 is a combination fx-pedal and guitar-to-midi device... but you can only use it as one or the other! That, right there, by itself, would be enough to make a VG-99 a bad purchase. If you wanted these capabilities, you could get close to it with a GI box and a GT-Pro or floor pedal - although you would still be missing the COSM guitars and hex-fx.

A quick look at Roland's GI and GR series, along with the fate of the Blue Chip and TerraTec versions of the Axon, and some other boxes from Yamaha et al,  and some very pricey guitar-like controllers from Synth-Ax etc seems to suggest that the ceiling for "mass-market success" for a guitar-to-midi device is in the area of $500-$600. I base this number mainly on the fact that the very effective Ax-100 mkII was a failure at a street price of roughly $750 (if I correctly remember). At $700 the GR-55 is at the very edge of the "dead zone" but the COSM technology can be seen as added value well worth the extra $100. (Or it can be seen as a COSM pedal with an added midi capability for no great increase in price.) At $1400, the perception of the midi capability being added value justifying a higher price seems not to operate.

I have no opinion regarding the D-Beam/Ribbon controller/V- Link capabilities, because I have no idea how much cost they add, although my feeling is that they are probably a lot cheaper than midi conversion. I'd have a stronger opinion, one way or the other, if I had some reliable numbers.



Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: germanicus on July 29, 2011, 10:49:02 PM
I can only speak for myself, but a big selling point of the vg99 was that it included an integrated midi conversion engine. I probably would not have bought it otherwise. At the time I bought the vg99, I had  midi converters, but the promise of having an all in one, meant alot.  The fact that the midi engine was tied into its alternate tuning engine, is a huge bonus, as this meant a ton less time creating a multitude of patches (on a seperate midi converter unit) for every single tuning variation I wanted to use. I could have a seperate midi sound module with 10 or so basic goto synth patches, and the tuning I was playing in didnt matter, as the 99 took care of making sure the output was scaled to the proper tuning. The Gr55 does this for its INTERNAL pcm synths, but not otherwise. For some terribly inept reason, they decided to NOT scale the gr55's midi output relative to how you have its alternate tuning engine configured.  ::)

I think roland could benefit from some improvements to their COSM modelling, both Amp and Guitar wise. I may be mistaken, but isnt the amp modelling in both the vg99 and gr55 actually from January 2005 (gt-Pro)?

I hope whatever product path they decide to pursue (however many years away), be it a new GR hybrid like the 55, or a new VG (with or without midi conversion), that they first and foremost put considerable effort into improving the Amp modelling and (even more importantly) the guitar modelling itself.




Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: whippinpost91850 on July 30, 2011, 10:49:42 AM
AS A 60 year old who's been using Roland guitar synths for 25yrs (mostly in cover bands) I just Wish Roland would listen to the people that actually use them!!!!! :'(
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: dead_lizard on July 30, 2011, 12:03:36 PM
we'd have more luck trying to reverse engineer it somehow, i'm beginning to think. we've waited far too long already.
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: Now_And_Then on August 01, 2011, 11:46:03 PM
Quote from: germanicus on July 29, 2011, 10:49:02 PM
I hope whatever product path they decide to pursue (however many years away), be it a new GR hybrid like the 55, or a new VG (with or without midi conversion)...

The GR-55 and the VG-99 are not really members of either the GR or VG families; by virtue of combining midi conversion with COSM modeling, they are hybrids that should be in a third family, even if Roland has not seen fit to expressly create such a family. Very roughly, the difference between them is that the GR-55 contains an onboard synth and no guitar modeling, whereas the VG-99 omits the onboard synth in favour of COSM guitars (and of course far more elaborate user tweakability.)
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: onemoreguitar on August 02, 2011, 01:11:50 AM
Actually the GR-55 has COSM guitars same as the VG-99.  It's just a dumbed down version.  It's more like a very dumbed down single channel of a VG-99, one channel of a GT-10 also dumbed down and 2 GR-20 in one.  The dumbed down part is what has kept me from going for it. 
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: Now_And_Then on August 02, 2011, 05:49:12 AM
 Oh, that's right. I forgot about that. Thank you for the correction. And luckily it does not vitiate my point at all.
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: aliensporebomb on August 02, 2011, 08:43:59 AM
Other things that they missed the boat on - I was watching a video last night on youtube where a guy bought a G-202 guitar and GR-300 module.    Everyone in the comments were going on about how "phat" it was and how great it sounded and it was a bummer that you couldn't buy one anymore.  "Why did they discontinue it?"
"How come the old ones were so scarce and expensive?"  "Why can't we get that sound anymore?"

And yet, if you buy a VG-99 or a GR-55 you get a full blown GR-300 inside it - it was never marketed in the advertising to my knowledge - it was never discussed at all!  Anyone who ever liked it would want it!  Anyone who didn't would go "Oh, that's a nice feature I won't use much".

How did I find out about it?  It was the Premiere Guitar discussion of the VG-99 and how accurate the GR-300 emulation was inside it.  The product had been out for a couple of years and I'd more or less lost interest in the whole "Let's model a Dumble 100%!" crowd but when I realize the VG-99 wasn't just a one-trick modeler but a wonder box with lots of options I went for it fully.

I saw exactly two ads in Guitar Player and nowhere else.

Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: vanceg on August 02, 2011, 08:20:09 PM
 I think it makes total sense for the VG-99 to have Pitch to MIDI. If it worked better.

The reason the VG-99 doesn't have the same amazing pitch to MIDI performance that the GR-55 has is twofold:

1) They botched the sensitivity settings. As mentioned before, setting the string sensitivity properly for the modeling side of the VG-99 messes it up for the Pitch to MIDI. And Vice Versa.  There is no almost conceivable way that this could not be fixed in software/firmware. It at least could be fixed with a very minor design change which allowed for two separate string sensitivities.

2) People are comparing the GR-55's pitch to MIDI conversion to the VG-99's when the GR-55 is triggering it's own INTERNAL synth.  There are a bunch of really great advantages to triggering an internal synth. One of which is that you don't actually have to convert to MIDI. This is the case with the GR-55: When you trigger the GR-55s internal synth, the signal is never actually converted to MIDI.  The pitch and amplitude detection send signals more or less straight to the synth.  Sure, it's still a "MIDI-Like" signal in that it contains pitch and amplitude information which triggers the internal synth, but it's not MIDI. What does this give you? Well, it saves you a few time-consuming steps: Converting to MIDI, Transmitting a MIDI message (allbe it internally), receiving a MIDI message, parsing a MIDI message.   What's that save you?  Time.  Not a LOT of time, but as we all know, Milliseconds count a LOT in the feel and responsiveness of a guitar to synth system. 

Try comparing a VG-99 set up for pitch to MIDI conversion triggering a synth to a GR-55 that is triggering the same (external) synth and I don't think you will believe that the GR-55 is such a magic device anymore. Sure, it's really nice.  I still think it tracks better than the VG-99, but if you do this comparison (which I have quite a few times), it's pretty remarkable how close the two are.  Especially considering that the GR-55 was developed several years after the VG-99.

My point is - there's really no reason the VG-99 couldn't have pretty much the same pitch to MIDI as the GR-55.  That is, if you are triggering external synths.  Personally, I really, really, really don't care for the PCM synth in the GR-55. Not my cup of tea AT ALL. So, if/when I use a GR-55 it's to trigger other devices. And, frankly, my VG-99 does just about as well as the GR-55 at that.


While I'm on a soapbox (it's getting windy up here):  I suspect that the Dbeam and Ribbon controller cost a lot more to include on the VG-99 than pitch to MIDI did.  hardware. Lots of hardware.
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: aliensporebomb on August 03, 2011, 09:41:16 AM
I had a totally strange and vivid dream last night that might even be true.

Are there any users who have VG-99 *not* on 1.04 version of the firmware? 

The dream was basically that if you were running 1.0 or another early version, then MIDI worked fine with "reasonable" sensitivity levels on the VG-99 but if you updated to 1.04 it "broke" and the problems we see with MIDI and reasonable sensivity levels.  It was totally weird, like I was watching a youtube video in my dream.

Might not have anything to it but.....   I'm going to do some tests on 1.04 in the days ahead.  I still maintain my old GR guitar worked much better for guitar-to-midi than my current one. 

My current one is a strat and a lot of people have GK3s attached to strats.  I wonder if there's something to it?
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: Elantric on August 03, 2011, 11:41:19 AM
If you are currently on VG-99 Firmware Version 1.04 - I would stay there and avoid downgrading.

The main issue  / hurdle with downgrading to Pre Version 1.04 firmware:

*  The earlier version firmware SMF files are not available to the general public.

*  Quite a few folks had major problems back in December 2007 when attempting to update the VG-99 Firmware, and things went wrong during the update. There is a great risk in "bricking" your VG-99 if the firmware install goes wrong! (power outage, wrong SMF data transmission speed, bad checksums, etc. 

This is what Roland states the VG-99 Version 1.04 addresses:

[Version 1.04]
Four new Pickup Types have been added to GK PU TYPE parameter.
(Please refer VG-99_l_ver104_e_web.pdf.)
This update also fixes the FAVORITE SETTINGS related issue and some other functions' issues.

More here:
http://ftp.roland.co.jp/support/en/downloads/res/1812326/VG-99_v104_features.pdf (http://ftp.roland.co.jp/support/en/downloads/res/1812326/VG-99_v104_features.pdf)
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: aliensporebomb on August 03, 2011, 06:34:20 PM
Quote from: Elantric on August 03, 2011, 11:41:19 AM
If you are currently on VG-99 Firmware Version 1.04 - I would stay there and avoid downgrading.

The main issue  / hurdle with downgrading to Pre Version 1.04 firmware:

*  The earlier version firmware SMF files are not available to the general public.

*  Quite a few folks had major problems back in December 2007 when attempting to update the VG-99 Firmware, and things went wrong during the update. There is a great risk in "bricking" your VG-99 if the firmware install goes wrong! (power outage, wrong SMF data transmission speed, bad checksums, etc. 

This is what Roland states the VG-99 Version 1.04 addresses:

[Version 1.04]
Four new Pickup Types have been added to GK PU TYPE parameter.
(Please refer VG-99_l_ver104_e_web.pdf.)
This update also fixes the FAVORITE SETTINGS related issue and some other functions' issues.

More here:
http://ftp.roland.co.jp/support/en/downloads/res/1812326/VG-99_v104_features.pdf (http://ftp.roland.co.jp/support/en/downloads/res/1812326/VG-99_v104_features.pdf)

I think I'll stay on 1.04!  In all honesty it was just a strange dream I had that gave me the idea.
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: cynegetic on August 03, 2011, 07:41:31 PM
Quote from: vanceg on August 02, 2011, 08:20:09 PM
1) They botched the sensitivity settings. As mentioned before, setting the string sensitivity properly for the modeling side of the VG-99 messes it up for the Pitch to MIDI. And Vice Versa.  There is no almost conceivable way that this could not be fixed in software/firmware. It at least could be fixed with a very minor design change which allowed for two separate string sensitivities.

? MIDIs not that bad on the 99.

And you can have different GK settings per patch. Just have one that you use for your 'Mainly MIDI' patches, one for your 'Mainly Guitar' patches, and a couple that you can used for your mixed patches.

It's not like you really need ZOMG authenticstrats tonez!1! on the guitar side when you are also doing a Hammond line in unison or something.

IMHO of course.

Also, I wouldn't say that they botched the settings. Heck they didn't figure out how to get them right until a product that came out ? years later with the nuance or whatever settings (I think anyway, don't have one).
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: gumtown on August 03, 2011, 08:14:33 PM
Quote from: aliensporebomb on August 03, 2011, 06:34:20 PM
In all honesty it was just a strange dream I had that gave me the idea.
Too much time on the computer??

One thing i have found with a memory of old gear you once had, is your memory has a funny way of exagerating events over time.
Classic example is when you have a memory of a favourite piece of 80's rack gear (12bit effects processor) that seemed mavelous at the time, then one day you buy the same thing again from a junk sale, and your expectations are blown to pieces once you try the gear again
(and that nice memory ruined).

Also it could be like getting back with an old girlfriend from years ago, and then you suddenly realise why you split in the first place.

What i'm angling at is you buy and sell gear over the years, you perception at the time may have been "yeah- i would rate that at a 95%", then years later your percived rating is still 95% for that same bit of equipment.
But when compared to something new it might actually sit around 55% (or typically less), so that's where i see some saying "but the old gear was better !!"   
.... So how many different sounds could the GR-300 make?

Jumping off the soapbox now..
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: aliensporebomb on August 03, 2011, 08:47:41 PM
I'm glad you mentioned that Gumtown - something extremely, extremely weird happened at my last gig:

This guy showed up, receding hairline, thin, seemed like a techy type and he said "long time no see!" and my brain then
started spinning because I couldn't remember this guy at all - I tried to picture him with hair and then things started to
focus.  But it still was so far back in the archives that I wasn't sure if it was the guy I was remembering and then boom!

It turns out this guy not only saw me play some twenty six years ago (1985?) but he said "I'll never forget you because you let me touch the first synthesizer I ever touched". 

And guess what THAT synthesizer was?  My old Roland G-202/GR300 setup!

How weird when things come full circle.  From out of the blue I don't see this guy for the better part of three decades and what should he see but me playing the current incarnation of Roland MagHex/Module technology!

--

Back to our original topic: does Roland shoot themselves in the foot by not updating their products with software updates
or do they encourage people to buy the new products that come out later by not doing so? 

Right now with the economy even worse than it was previously with recent developments it's amazing there are people
with money to buy said devices and resources at said companies are thin. 

Some of us would pay for a software update but how many actual VG-99 owners are there - I'd wager there are more
GR-55 owners just based on the activity around here.
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: Vgunn on August 12, 2011, 05:33:45 PM
Quote from: whippinpost91850 on July 15, 2011, 11:25:41 AM
Didn't mean to be so negative in my last post. i'm loving alot of the capabilities of my GR55, but am finding the work around for the patch delay alone to be more expensive then, paying a little more for a more live usable unit. I don't know maybe It's just me.  I just like things (not neccessarily easy)to work

What is the work around?   BTW, I deal with this by creating a different patch for each song and using only the stuff I can do within a single patch for any given song.
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: vanceg on August 12, 2011, 11:12:46 PM
That's MY point!  MIDI on the VG-99 is not that bad at all!  In fact, I think it's really, really good. What they "botched" that causes people to say it's "Totally unusable" (which MANY folks have said) is that the sensitivity settings for MIDI and for the modeling don't match well.

Yes, indeedie you can set up different GK settings per patch and this is exactly what most of us who use the VG-99 for Pitch to MIDi end up doing. 

Again - it's my strong assertion that the primary reason that the GR-55 has such a better reputation for Pitch to MIDI is that it's typically used to trigger it's own synth...which doesn't have to go through the entire MIDI signal generation and reception process.

I'm all for the pitch to MIDI on the VG-99. 

That said - I don't USE pitch to MIDI very much just because I'm not that interested in triggering synths. When I do use it, it's either 1) to experiment so that I can provide product evaluations to my clients, or 2) to control effect parameters based on the pitch of the note(s) I'm playing.



Quote from: cynegetic on August 03, 2011, 07:41:31 PM
? MIDIs not that bad on the 99.

And you can have different GK settings per patch. Just have one that you use for your 'Mainly MIDI' patches, one for your 'Mainly Guitar' patches, and a couple that you can used for your mixed patches.

It's not like you really need ZOMG authenticstrats tonez!1! on the guitar side when you are also doing a Hammond line in unison or something.

IMHO of course.

Also, I wouldn't say that they botched the settings. Heck they didn't figure out how to get them right until a product that came out ? years later with the nuance or whatever settings (I think anyway, don't have one).
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: aliensporebomb on August 13, 2011, 03:54:00 PM
I think the ideal setting will be highly personal based on each individual VG-99 owners playing style and the guitar sound used.  Do you have a light touch?  Do you dig in heavy?  Are you a vintage traditionalist or a modern style player?  What is your view on how synths should be played?  Are you a staccato stylist or a smooth legato player?  All these factor. 
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: whippinpost91850 on August 15, 2011, 08:02:50 AM
I use an FCB1010 for all my program changes. I had a friend Bruce Egnater build me an external inline relay to mute the guitar output (direct to my amp)controlled by relay out on the FCB1010.  I use it when I need to have just synth sounds in parts of certain songs. After I get a break from my next couple of gigs, we are going to try modifing and installing either a quiter relay in the FCB1010 or add another circuit as there is plenty of room. Will post picture when I get back in town.
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: acousticglue on August 16, 2011, 04:39:30 AM
Getting back to the topic, it would be nice if Roland were more personal in the same standing that POD, Amplitube and others have made strides to keep a user base that is getting updates for the unit. I mean, these guys had to start a forum in their stead! How impersonal can one company be? I won't purchase another Roland product, you can bet on it. Not if they don't start playing to the masses. It doesn't matter to me that the unit can do all these things. It falls on deaf Japanese ears.
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: aliensporebomb on August 16, 2011, 07:27:25 AM
AcousticGlue has a good point.  Most of the other electronics conglomerates are communicating in the way we communicate these days:  online.  Twitter, Facebook, etcetera.  Especially twitter.  The VG-99 informal board on Facebook has been dead for months - I don't even know if it's still active.

I've been looking at Twitter recently looking at various firms and it appears that Roland_UK is the only one with a sizeable twitter presence - actually responding to a VG-99 user who was confused about some features pointing him to the Roland Canada videos up on youtube.   I follow Roland_US but I don't see them posting much.
If Roland_Japan has any presence I probably can't read it anyway! 

If you follow #VG-99 and #GR-55 you'll see a LOT of traffic in Japanese (Kanji) and I really need to get that part of the language down so I can see what they're talking about.  I get the idea there's a lot more users of these devices over there but there's no organized way to let anyone over here communicate with anyone over there!   

I'm a member of a well known Ibanez forum and there are at least five regular users from Japan (most notably Hasenobu-san who wrote a series of books on rare vintage Japanese guitars, TAD who lives very near the main Fujigen guitar plant, and a few others) who follow that board who are at least serviceable as far as their english goes - I've not seen anyone from that part of the world on the vguitarforums yet.

I'll tell you, I'm very curious what the Japanese are doing with these devices - do they have the same concerns we do about updates?  Who is using the VG-99 and
GR-55 over there?  There's a wall somewhere and we have to knock it down! 
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: Elantric on August 16, 2011, 09:10:40 AM
Join the Roland / Boss Facebook site and ask Dave Navarro about the VG-99 / GR-55 here:

???

http://app.bronto.com/public/?q=preview_message&fn=Link&t=1&ssid=4067&id=d9m11o3ircuyfqsggf44wcxdsbc7c&id2=ewsalqwhgxxesyxtp2ux3lqijnlez&subscriber_id=bixpumjuziyedvbwfuxyggqizyhvblp&messageversion_id=bokvlrlxrxzyqqrwxvtqcpvkawhibic&delivery_id=bjarrstwxutwstusbayksbdrikawbch&tid=3.D-M.Al0TdQ.B_Fj.Q2Wc..YJsv.b..l.YCY.b.TkmByA.Tkm10A.nEH30Q (http://app.bronto.com/public/?q=preview_message&fn=Link&t=1&ssid=4067&id=d9m11o3ircuyfqsggf44wcxdsbc7c&id2=ewsalqwhgxxesyxtp2ux3lqijnlez&subscriber_id=bixpumjuziyedvbwfuxyggqizyhvblp&messageversion_id=bokvlrlxrxzyqqrwxvtqcpvkawhibic&delivery_id=bjarrstwxutwstusbayksbdrikawbch&tid=3.D-M.Al0TdQ.B_Fj.Q2Wc..YJsv.b..l.YCY.b.TkmByA.Tkm10A.nEH30Q)

http://www.facebook.com/RolandCorpUS (http://www.facebook.com/RolandCorpUS)

http://www.facebook.com/BOSSUS (http://www.facebook.com/BOSSUS)
Meanwhile - VGuitarForums exists out of sheer need and the massive work of volunteers / users of this high tech Guitar gear - we have zero affiliation or funding from Roland - who prefer to remain aloof and not affiliated with our efforts here at VGuitarForums.com.

Since 2003, I have repeatedly suggested to Roland US that a User Forum for their high tech guitar products was obviously a good thing - and they disagreed.


Roland UK does the closet job to providing a decent end user forum.
http://www.rolandforums.co.uk/ (http://www.rolandforums.co.uk/)
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: Elantric on February 25, 2016, 07:32:23 AM
Old thread, but re-reading my  1st post this thread , it appears my predictions that Roland will design a lower cost VGuitar system came true (2014 Boss GP-10)

Quote
In tough economic times like these, Roland Japan (who designs all the products) will be responding by re-prioritizing and re-tasking its limited engineering workforce to focus on creating brand new lower cost gear (with reduced feature set), to generate new sales revenue in the lower cost product market segments, as a response to today's cash strapped world economy.
I'm of the opinion they are not in a position today to place those same engineering resources creating new firmware, or adding new features to existing premium priced products with declining sales like the VG-99, VB-99 during a global economic recession.
Remember this is the same company that decided to cancel creating a GR-55 Editor and not adding a 1/4" Normal Guitar Input jack on the GR-55, deeming these too costly. Apparently lack of these items has not deterred the extremely high user demand and robust sales the GR-55 has been experiencing since its release this year.
The Roland Corporate Financial Officers call the shots, and I reluctantly agree their decisions have proved to be the smart decision.

The GR-55 is a hit, as reflected in the significant growth rate of www.VGuitarForums.com (https://www.vguitarforums.com) this year (We've more than doubled our numbers to (effective July 2011) to over 4000 members !)

Ever since the GR-55 was announced at Winter NAMM show in mid January 2011, we are growing at a rate of  250 (average ) new members each month. The good news,  key people at each Roland distributor around the globe are silently observing and paying attention to our discussions, and this will influence the direction of future products.   
Title: Re: Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?
Post by: acousticglue on February 26, 2016, 05:19:57 AM
and I bought a Sy300 after saying never. The thing is the updates and there could be more to the SY300 as GR5 by NI has many features that lend to being able to synthesize the sounds. More FX being able to run or adding more categories to firmware updates. The 99 had too many things, to me, that left me wondering why I would ever use it. I dont need my pedal to control lights, I didnt nee the beam but I did need some new amps and cabs, some fresh synths inside. The possibility to add a processor or RAM (not sure could fo this). These are things that keeps a product selling. My software stuff can be reloaded if I have a failed system. 99 would be done.