Axon PU100 Hex guitar pickup - ("Duncan Designed")

Started by vanceg, March 10, 2008, 05:31:31 PM

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vanceg


Elantric

#1
We were just talking about this "Seymour Duncan / Axon  Hex PU"  on the yahoo vg-8 mail list.

My thoughts.

If you think this is the missing link to getting good "Seymour Duncan sound" for your VG-99, you are wrong.


https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/PU100--axon-pu-100


Elantric


When Yamaha discontinued their G1D Hex PU in 2004,
the identical Axon AIX-103 became hard to find at the
same time.

Both were identical.

Yamaha G1D (Mag Hex) (discontinued)
http://www.instrumentpro.com/P-YAMG1D

Axon AIX-103 (Mag Hex)(rebadged Yamaha G1D - see
above)

http://kellysmusicandcomputers.com/productinfo~s~AXON-AIX-103~p~194761513.htm

I think this new Axon Hex PU is just Axon's
replacement for their old PU, the AIX-103 - it adds
the adjustable Radius feature of the GK-3, Maybe
Seymour helped designed that mechanical aspect. But the GK-13 interface has become a somewhat "standard" electrical interface - which all the manufacturers adhere to.
But I think any rumour that this PU is going to work
better as a direct PU  via a fan out box - or help the VG-99 produce "Seymour Duncan legendary
tone" - or actually perform  better than a Roland GK-3 is pure marketing fluff IMHO.

I think Axon just wants to be selling a complete package for their new AX-50 , and they found it too awkward to have to demontrate its capabilities at a trade show with  Roland GK-3 PUs  mounted on their demonstration guitars.

s0c9

#3
shoot... looks like a GK-3

Hope it works, and price is right :)
Nothing about an internal version mentioned tho'...

vanceg

???? What's with the sarcastic reply????
I was just pointing out that another 13 pin capable pickup just got announced.
I can't imagine that this would be much better than a GK-3....Maybe it is...I don't know.  I'm surely not saying it is. I have more GK2s than I need anyway so I won't be buying one of these Seymour hex pickups anyway.

Quote from: sustainiac on March 10, 2008, 06:12:02 PM
We were just talking about this "Seymour Duncan / Axon  Hex PU"  on the yahoo vg-8 mail list.

My thoughts.

If you think this is the missing link to getting good VG-99 sound,

I have an AC  power cord I can sell you that works in tandem with this PU, and significantly improves the sound of the VG-99:

http://www.audioconnect.com/html/pk14_palladian.html















not!


vanceg

I see - you might not have been being sarcastic at my post, but rather at some posting or claim that someone else made on another list or at another time....I see. 

Yeah, I'm just thinking this is another 13 pin capable pickup.  I never really wanted SD pickups on my guitar anyway....

Vance


Quote from: sustainiac on March 10, 2008, 06:24:30 PM
When Yamaha discontinued their G1D Hex PU in 2004,
the identical Axon AIX-103 became hard to find at the
same time.

Both were identical.

Yamaha G1D (Mag Hex) (discontinued)
http://www.instrumentpro.com/P-YAMG1D

Axon AIX-103 (Mag Hex)(rebadged Yamaha G1D - see
above)

http://kellysmusicandcomputers.com/productinfo~s~AXON-AIX-103~p~194761513.htm

I think this new Axon Hex PU is just Axon's
replacement for their old PU, the AIX-103 - it adds
the adjustable Radius feature of the GK-3, Maybe
Seymour helped designed that mechanical aspect. But the GK-13 interface has become a somewhat "standard" electrical interface - which all the manufacturers adhere to.
But I think any rumour that this PU is going to work
better as a direct PU  via a fan out box - or help the VG-99 produce "Seymour Duncan legendary
tone" - or actually perform  better than a Roland GK-3 is pure marketing fluff IMHO.

I think Axon just wants to be selling a complete package for their new AX-50 , and they found it too awkward to have to demontrate its capabilities at a trade show with  Roland GK-3 PUs  mounted on their demonstration guitars.

Elantric

#6
No this was not directed at you vance

the sarcasm is out of context - read more details at yahoo vg-8.com, but basically there was anticipation that this PU would deliver something new:

here was the thread at vg-8@yahoogroups. com

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: kelly jacklin
> To: vg-8@yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 9:15 PM
> Subject: [vg-8] Axon and Seymour Duncan make a hex pickup...
>
>
> I didn't notice anyone mention this yet, so just in case folks
> haven't
> seen this:
> <http://tinyurl. com/2mmpe2>
> <http://messe. harmony-central. com/Musikmesse08 /Content/ Terratec/
> PR/Axon-Technologie s-Duncan- Hexaphonic- Pickup.html
>>
>
> It appears that Axon and Seymour Duncan have colluded to design a
> competitor to the GK3...
>
> kelly
>


----- Original Message -----
From: MoonCaine
To: vg-8@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2008 10:21 PM
Subject: Re: [vg-8] Axon and Seymour Duncan make a hex pickup...

> On Mar 7, 2008, at 10:54 PM, Steven Kastner wrote:
>> I wonder how this pickup will sound throughan RMC Fanout Box.
>> Since it was designed by Duncan, it might actually sound quite
>> good as an audio source.
>>
>> Steven
>>

Hm, wouldn't that be cool?

From discussions in the midiguitar and Roland GR groups I'm in, I
suspect that hex pickups in the Roland GK style aren't meant to have
pleasing sound. Judging from what I read in the discussion, it seems
that might not even be possible. I've seen it claimed that the tiny
humbucker under each string makes a tone without much high
frequencies, because that lack of high frequencies means the Guitar-
to-MIDI converter can more easily "hear" the fundamental note itself.

Perhaps SD can make a pickup that sounds good, yet still sends out
the right kind of sound that a MIDI converter needs to hear, too.

Regardless, I bet it's a great move for AXON. They get many bonuses
from associating their name with such a pickup, with Seymour Duncan's
name being the main attraction. Smart.

I'll be really surprised if any of us who already have hex pickups
should care, but for players who haven't gotten into Guitar-to-MIDI
yet, it will be more impressive that an AXON buyer wouldn't be
presented with a Roland brand name -- which, right or wrong, implies
that somehow Roland is bigger, better, or somehow more important.
Merely getting a pickup out there that's AXON-branded is good for
them. Add the marketing appeal of the Duncan name, and it's bound to
appeal to some guitarists who wouldn't have tried it before.

Congrats to AXON & Terratec for what must surely turn out to be a
very smart deal.

--moonie

>
>
>

>
>
>

Subject:    Re: [vg-8] Axon and Seymour Duncan make a hex pickup...

I have an Axon AX-101pickup. It works well with my VG-8. I also own an AX-100 MK2 which is also a great product.

The Duncan/Axon collaboration interests me because it may mean I can finally get a good sounding pickup for hex guitar. For comparison, I submit the following information on the only successfully engineered hex guitar that I know of.

Gibson has been selling their digital Les Paul for a few years. It has a specially designed hex pickup that is designed to function as if it was a standard monophinic magnetic pickup, not a pitch to MIDI driver. The guitar comes with two standard humbuckers so it can be played as a regular guitar, and an ethernet (CAT 5 or CAT 6)computer networking cable that connects it to a breakout box. The breakout box is very similar in function to an RMC Fanout Box.

The guitar has a proprietary system that is partially inside and partially outside of the guitar (inside the breakout box).

The hex pickup is (of course) a six element analog transducer, just like all of the hex pickups on the market. Gibson used to have a description of the engineering of the pickup itself on their website that indicated that they had created a different kind of magnet structure and winding that creates a better pattern of flux around each string. That description is no longer on the web site.

What is definitely different is that the 6 bus signals from the pickup are immediately converted inside the guitar to digital, and then passed to the breackout box, where it is converted back to an analog signal.

Unfortunately, you can't bypass the breakout box, and plug the ethernet cable directly into a computer for DAW access via an ASIO driver. That (in my humble opinion) was a major mistake on Gibson's part. For most potential purchaser's, hex guitar is much more a studio tool than a live tool, which would require a set of six guitar amps onstage to fully implement. And staying in the digital domain in the studio is a really practical feature.

The bottom line is that the design works really well. If you check out the audio quality in the demos of the hex pickup, you'll be dazzled.

http://www.gibson. com/DigitalGuita rNew/gibsonDigit al.html

But the price (around $3500 street) is exhorbitant. The Gibson digital is also not a top-end Les Paul. It rates as a low mid-level quality guitar, when compared to other Les Paul models. As a straight Les Paul, I'd rate it as a $2000 instrument. That makes it even less of a value overall.

Now that we have a valid apples-to apples comparison available, we go back to the new Axon/Duncan pickup.

Quoting the press release on Harmoney central:

"Even with all these useful features, the inner values have not been forgotten - the PU 100 was developed by pickup guru Seymour Duncan. Thus the AXON PU 100 is, in every respect, a valuable addition to any instrument:"

The way I read this, the statement above directly infers that the new pickup will stand on its own as a magnetic pickup.

If that turns out to be the case, when combined with an RMC Fanout Box, you might have a system that rivals the sound quality of the Gibson digital Les Paul. Also, the AXON/Duncan + RMC combination can be retrofitted to almost any guitar.

The price of entry would be under $500.

That's why I'm really interested.

vanceg

I didn't even realize that list was still having discussion. I thought we'd all moved over here ;-)

Anyway - I, too, am interested in hearing if the pickup does sound different from the GK-3, but I have no big hope or expectation either way.

Vance


Quote from: sustainiac on March 10, 2008, 07:53:49 PM
No this was not directed at you vance

the sarcasm is out of context - read more details at yahoo vg-8.com, but basically there was anticipation that this PU would deliver something new:

hereis the thread

>

Elantric

#8
>I didn't even realize that list was still having discussion. I thought we'd all moved over here.

We get 30 posts a day over there. Many still hate this forum and prefer Yahoo unsorted emails.

You can lead a horse to water but . . . oh never mind.

http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/vg-8/

1886 members - 40 that actually participate, 12 that are a key "brain pool"


mooncaine

For me, the list's chief attraction relates to your metaphor nicely: you can lead me to water, sure, but on the list, the water comes to me. It's like having my own tap.

Elantric

#10
But just try to find that one drop of knowledge 18 months later when you actually need it  - I can never locate info I need in a timely manner using Yahoo Group Message Search tool.  the goal over here is to at least have a few catagorized "bins" to store  and sort the knowledge we share.  for future generations of newbies. 

Pin

#11
I wasn't sure where to put this post so I put it in here as maybe it might invoke some interest.

The Axon PU100 is the variant hex pickup which was tweaked by Seymour Duncan on behalf of Terratec. I think Terratec brought it out when they introduced the USB Axon 50. I have never seen one let alone used one. I have always fancied that it might be the best of the bunch but I have never once seen one come up on Evil Bay.

My question is does anyone actually have one  / use one / have used one?

Elantric

Basically Roland has a patent on the Radius Adjustable GK-3 Hex PU - the Axon PU100 employed a similar design, Roland filed a lawsuit against Teratech for patent infringement, Roland won - and Teratech and the Axon PU100 is history. Only a very small number of Axon PU100's  shipped in Europe, but these never made it to USA 


--
QuoteLet's hope that if the FTP disappears after this year that Roland picks up the technology and fixes their abysmal tracking.

Actually I really doubt that would ever happen. People have a false assumption regarding how large companies work.
They think big companies welcome "not invented here" technology,  and get excited and pay large sums of money to acquire a license to the intellectual property and marketing rights to "a better mouse trap"  that duplicates and improves their existing product lines - and everybody gets rich.

The truth is most often the exact opposite scenario.

Ive seen big companies spend huge sums to kill competing technology viewed as possibly jeopardizing their existing investment and control of market segments.

Its common in the Rap music community
http://music.yahoo.com/news/maserati-driver-vegas-shooting-crash-rapper-165339831.html

Look what happened to Terratec / Axon when they tried to market the "Seymour Duncan designed" PU-100 "GK-3" competitor:
 
http://www.midi-classics.com/g/g42313.htm

QuoteExpand your guitar's sonic possibilities many times over by using MIDI! The AXON series of guitar-to-MIDI-controllers ensure great sound, and the new AXON PU 100 hexaphonic pickup ensures accurate signal transmission.
You need not worry about compatibility – the adjustable curvature of the magnets allows the pickup system to be installed easily on virtually any steel-string guitar, whether electric or acoustic. A clearance of nine millimeters (0.354") between the normal pickup and bridge and ten millimeters (0.394") between body and strings are entirely sufficient for installing the pickup. Of course, we provide a comprehensive range of mounting hardware.

Using the control unit provided with it, you can change all the important settings for the connected guitar-to-MIDI-controller, even on stage in the middle of the rush of a live concert. You can do everything you need to do quickly and accurately: adjust the volume, switch presets or mix between the guitar's normal pickup and the AXON PU 100. Three color-coded LEDs indicate the operating status of the mix, so you don't have to fumble about in the dark.

Of course, even with all these useful features, the inner values have not been forgotten – the PU 100 was developed by pickup guru Seymour Duncan. Thus the AXON PU 100 is, in every respect, a valuable addition to your instrument.

(Hint: Terratec was soon hit with a lawsuit by Roland in 2008, due to the PU-100's pickup's Radius adjust screw - which Roland claimed was a direct copy from the GK-3. Roland had already filed a Patent on this specific GK-3 feature and was in process to being a granted a US Patent on the GK-3's radius adjust, which they now posses:

http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?FT=D&date=20050616&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP&CC=US&NR=2005126377A1&KC=A1&ND=4




Also most companies with patents, like Roland  - do not typically license their technology to anyone.
Instead they use the US Patent System and Courts to restrict others from selling competing products.

Witness Apple vs Samsung in 2012.


Add the costs to implement the Global RoHS Lead free rules of 2005  - forced Terratec to sell all existing Axon inventory, and sometime in 2006, Terratec did the math and projected costs vs profit for the smaller than expected "MIDI Guitar Marketplace" and decided to drop the whole Axon product line soon after.

musicamex

I have both an axon guitar pickup and a bass pickup, virtually (pun intended) unused.  So this is interesting information.   Thanks for posting it.

Does anyone have an old axon ax100  (blue chip) board or complete unit for sale?  Soundcard not necessary, just no battery leak damage.

Thx

Elantric

Remember we are talking about short lived 2008 Axon PU100 hex pickup with radius adjust.

Here is pic:




Axon PU100 pre-sales PDF
http://terratec.ultron.info/AXON/HELP_FILES/MIDI_Pickups.pdf


QuoteI have both an axon guitar pickup and a bass pickup, virtually (pun intended) unused.
Those would be the earlier Axon AIX-101 (same as Yamaha G1D) or AIX-103 bass hex PUs




AIX-101/AIX-103 Manual (pdf)
http://terratec.ultron.info/AXON/AIX103/Manual/AXON_AIX_103_Manual_1.0_GB.pdf

QuoteNeither Terratec nor Bluechip could sell enough Axons to make it worth the investment.


The nail in the coffin occurred after Terratec "cloned" the Roland GK-3 Radius Hex PU adjust for their own Terratec / Axon PU-100  "Seymour Duncan Designed GK hex PU    -
( which Roland Patented the GK PU Radius Screw )
https://www.roland.com/us/patent/



They settled out of court with Terratec paying Roland a substantial sum  - all occurred same time as the Global Electronic Industry adopted Lead Free Solder, and it became illegal to sell old Lead solder Music Gear in California after 2007.
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=500.0
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/PU100--axon-pu-100
http://terratec.ultron.info/AXON/HELP_FILES/MIDI_Pickups.pdf
All factors contributed to Terratec pulling the plug on Axon production

Pin

Quote from: Elantric on September 04, 2015, 01:27:17 PM
Only a very small number of Axon PU100's  shipped in Europe, but these never made it to USA 


Thanks Elantric. Explains why I have never seen one come up on Ebay. I do have an Axon pickup that came with one of my Axon AX100 units but it is not the Seymour version. 

ADP

I had one for a while. I bought it on eBay here in the UK. It worked just the same as a GK-3. The only thing was that when I fitted the pickup using screws and springs, it produced random notes when I tapped the cable linking it to the control unit ( the "wart"). When I put a piece of plastic between the face of the guitar and the base of the pickup, the problem disappeared. I don't know if the problem was just with my pickup or if it was some kind of design issue.

admin

Quote from: ADP on September 05, 2015, 04:34:27 PM
I had one for a while. I bought it on eBay here in the UK. It worked just the same as a GK-3. The only thing was that when I fitted the pickup using screws and springs, it produced random notes when I tapped the cable linking it to the control unit ( the "wart"). When I put a piece of plastic between the face of the guitar and the base of the pickup, the problem disappeared. I don't know if the problem was just with my pickup or if it was some kind of design issue.

Wax Potting the GK pickup solves random notes when "tapping" the pickup cable
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=43.0