GR55 Live Set up question

Started by jgcable, September 24, 2013, 07:38:25 AM

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jgcable

Hello, I have been a long time VG88/99 user for home use and am about to switch to the GR55 to use live.  Here is my live rig currently.
Mesa Boogie Single Rectifier Series 2 half stack.  The only effect I use is a delay in the loop and a wah out in front. I use this rig for clean, heavy rhythm and solo because it has the solo boost feature.  My band plays everything from STP to Alice in Chains to Ozzy to The Black Crowes.
Its a 4pc.  Guitar, Bass, Vocals and Drums.
I want to use the GR55 for synth pads and some guitar/amp modeling on clean parts of songs. I don't want to use the GR55 for my heavy rhythm or solo tones live. 
I am thinking my set up would be: 

GR55 GUITAR OUTPUT set to NORMAL PU. I would plug a cable from this output jack directly to the input jack of my Mesa Boogie amp head. 

GR55  RIGHT OUTPUT AND LEFT OUTPUT. I would take 2 cables and go into 2 channels of my PA mixer which will send that signal directly to the PA system. This would be my synth pad, guitar/amp modeling tone source. 

This way I could have my clean channel coming from my 1/2 stack (which is mic'd and in the PA) and the synth tones coming directly from the PA. 

If I wanted to use amp modeling or guitar modeling I could control it with the GK2A pickup that I have. 

I have read tons of posts regarding the GR55 but it appears that hardly anybody uses a traditional guitar amp live with one. I am not interested in using the GR55 for my guitar tone. Only for synth backing tones. I also don't want the GR55 tones playing through my guitar amp. I only want them in the PA system. 
Does this sound like I am on the right track? 

Toby Krebs

Use the 2 cable method. Velcro or strap together the 13 pin GK cable to a good quality guitar cable and run them to separate inputs. Guitar cable to your wah etc.. and 13 pin GK cable to your GR55. Don't use the guitar out on the GR55. It sucks especially if you try to use it with a Mesa/Marshall etc...amp. I have modded my GR55 so it has a better guitar out but if yours is new I don't recommend you start off drilling holes in it. The GR55 is great for keyboard synth tones and I often use it that way myself although I use the guitar modelling in it as well for smaller gigs.

Good Luck!

T.C.

mockchoi

It's such a frustrating device, can do so many things, and is so limited in others.  There just is no good way to do what you're intending (granted I don't completely understand what you're intending; you say both that you want to use guitar/amp modeling on clean parts of songs, and that you're not interested in using the GR55 for guitar tones).

I agree you don't want the 'guitar out' going into your amp, or wah, or whatever.  The guitar out works well enough for clean tones, but you won't be happy with the heavier ones.  So you could maybe run both the 1/4 inch cable out of your guitar and another out of the 'guitar out' jack into some sort of switching device.  Or resign yourself to playing clean tones through the PA and not your guitar amp (there are definitely good clean tones inside the GR55).  Or mod the GR55.

jgcable

That doesn't sound too bad. 

My guitar would have the 13 pin cable going to the GR55 and the standard guitar cord going to my Morley Wah.  If I want synth tones only I switch the GK2A to SYNTH and they will play through the PA. If I want synth and guitar tones I switch to MIX and I will get my actual guitar through my guitar amp and the synth through the PA. If I want guitar only coming through my amp I switch to GUITAR on the GK2A.

I could also route COSM amp or guitar modeling the same way if I ever wanted to.

For example.... one of the songs we do is Here I Go Again by Whitesnake.  There is a break in the middle of the song where there is a nice break that starts with a clean guitar and turns into a cello with a synth playing in the background. Currently.. since I am the only guitar player and we don't have a keyboard player I have been playing the clean part with a chorus pedal and some delay and I switch to a high gain tone to mimic the cello/violin part in the song. It sounds ok but I am thinking I could do a much better job with the GR55.  I could start off the same as I usually do with my clean guitar and the chorus pedal but I could also add a synth pad in the background coming from the board by switching my GK2A from GUITAR to MIX. When the violin/cello part comes up I could switch patches on the GR55 and change channels on my guitar amp and play both a violin/cello synth patch coming through the PA system and my distorted high gain guitar coming from my amp.

We also do Dust in the Wind by Kansas and I play the entire violin solo note for note on the guitar. I would like to switch to a violin synth patch for that part of the song. 

mojo thorne

Quote from: jgcable on September 24, 2013, 08:55:59 AM

For example.... one of the songs we do is Here I Go Again by Whitesnake.  There is a break in the middle of the song where there is a nice break that starts with a clean guitar and turns into a cello with a synth playing in the background. Currently.. since I am the only guitar player and we don't have a keyboard player I have been playing the clean part with a chorus pedal and some delay and I switch to a high gain tone to mimic the cello/violin part in the song. It sounds ok but I am thinking I could do a much better job with the GR55.  I could start off the same as I usually do with my clean guitar and the chorus pedal but I could also add a synth pad in the background coming from the board by switching my GK2A from GUITAR to MIX. When the violin/cello part comes up I could switch patches on the GR55 and change channels on my guitar amp and play both a violin/cello synth patch coming through the PA system and my distorted high gain guitar coming from my amp.


I would try to avoid situations where you need to change patches on the GR-55 mid-song, unless you have a point in the song where you actually stop playing for 1 or 2 seconds.  The patch changes are not instantaneous and there will be a noticeable hiccup. 

I normally try to limit myself to using one patch in a single song unless I'm doing a lot of looping.  You can get pretty creative with the assigns to control the different sounds and parameters within a single patch, and this all happens as soon as you touch the button or pedal that the changes are assigned to.

Elantric

#5
Toby Krebs posted dozens of GR-55 patches he uses at his gig. Each patch uses Multiple Control Assignments for the Expression pedal to allows you to "pan" between rhythm and solo tones or Guitar to Synth  - within the same patch  - this allow you to use One GR-55 patch per song and circumvent the long mute silence gap that occurs when changing GR-55 patches during a song.   
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8709.0

and

* GR-55 Ultimate Multi Control patches (solves the GR-55 long Patch change delay (with mute) issue)
Jim Williams Multiple Assignment Pathes.
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=5647.msg38806#msg38806

Guitarplayer_10's Ultimate MultiControl Patch
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=7267.msg50612#msg50612

All above are listed here:

GR-55 FAQ: TOP THINGS TO KNOW
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4006.0

jgcable

Understood. That's the problem I have with most synth gear. Patch changes typically have a delay. 

The thing that boggles me regarding the GR55 is the lack of information from guitar players who don't use the amp or guitar modeling portion.

Even all the Youtube videos are all demonstrating just the GR55. I couldn't find a single video showing a live player using a high gain tube guitar amp for their primary tone and the GR55 for backing synth tones. I would think that would be something that most live guitar players would be interested in. There is nothing in the GR55 amp/guitar modeling that is going to convince me to switch from my Mesa Boogie or my 5150.  I have tried the Fractal Audio AXE FX too and although its amazing in the studio I don't think it sounds real enough live. 

What I mean is this... the ultimate set up live for me would be Taurus 2 pedals like Rush uses.  I just don't have the money for that kind of rig and the fact is I'm not really going to be using the GR55 that much live. Maybe 5 songs out of 35.  I mainly want to add a nice synth pad or string ensemble behind the clean parts of some songs. I have never had any luck getting a convincing heavy guitar tone out of a modeling amp and I have owned just about every modeling rig on the planet.  I always fall back to either my Mesa Single Rectifier or my Peavey 5150-II heads and 4 x 12 cabs. 


jgcable

Quote from: Elantric on September 24, 2013, 09:11:56 AM
Toby Krebs posted dozens of GR-55 patches he uses at his gig. Each patch uses Multiple Control Assignments for the Expression pedal to allows you to "pan" between rhythm and solo tones withing each patch  - this allow you to use One GR-55 patch per song and circumvent the long mute silence gap that occurs when changing GR-55 patches during a song.   
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8709.0

and

* GR-55 Ultimate Multi Control patches (solves the GR-55 long Patch change delay (with mute) issue)
Jim Williams Multiple Assignment Pathes.
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=5647.msg38806#msg38806

Guitarplayer_10's Ultimate MultiControl Patch
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=7267.msg50612#msg50612

All above are listed here:

GR-55 FAQ: TOP THINGS TO KNOW
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4006.0

Thanks for the response but aren't these for when you are using the amp/guitar modeling portion of the GR55? I am not interested in any of that. I just want synth pads or string ensembles or piano accompaniment coming from the PA under my natural guitar signal which is coming from my Mesa Boogie Amp (which is also mic'd through the PA).       

Elantric

#8
The same strategy demonstrated should provide a pointer to create patches which Pan from Guitar to Synth using the Expression pedal - all in one GR-55 patch

For example in Tony Kreb's massive  " GR-55 Stand Alone Patches.g5l"  there are 297 GR-55 patches, one is called "Les Paul MSL/B3"  which uses the GR-55 Expression pedal to "pan" between a Les Paul Guitar sound and Hammond B3 Organ - all in the same patch.

Uploaded at Snapagogo.com

Jim Williams

Your setup lacks the ability to monitor your PCM pads and using the Guitar out you will need a noise gate. I have a similar setup and controlling noise can be problematic. If you are not going for an all hi gain metal tone just don't use any compressors or overdrives in front of your amp and you'll be alright.
Skype: (upon Request)

Everything from modeling to the real deal, my house looks like a music store.

mockchoi

Quote from: jgcable on September 24, 2013, 09:17:14 AM
The thing that boggles me regarding the GR55 is the lack of information from guitar players who don't use the amp or guitar modeling portion.


I don't use amp modeling (I do use some of the guitar modeling).  I don't however use a very high gain amplifier, so I'm able to use the guitar out when I have to (I only use if I need guitar and synth tones on the same song).  I also had to mod the GR55 to get a setup that works pretty well.  But, like I said, the unit really wasn't designed with this sort of thing in mind.  It's designed to be run line out into an FRFR system, and anything else it can do is an afterthought and not very well implemented.

Elantric

#11
QuoteWhat I mean is this... the ultimate set up live for me would be Taurus 2 pedals like Rush uses.  I just don't have the money for that kind of rig and the fact is I'm not really going to be using the GR55 that much live.

The "poor mans" Moog Taurus is created by using a KMI 12 Step + iPad running your favorite IOS Synth - like "Animoog".
http://pureguitar.com/gear/2013/02/19/low-budget-bass-pedals-and-beyond/




Unlike earlier Roland GR units (GR-20, GR-30, GR-33)  -  Too bad the GR-55 does NOT respond to external MIDI  note On/off commands.


Toby Krebs

Very often I just use the GR55 PCM synth tones and acoustic guitar sounds and get my high gain stuff from my Line 6 M13 and a tube amp. I play all the same stuff you do. I play Burn by Mr. Blackmore this way and have patches for many Whitesnake type tunes in my GR55. Here I Go Again has some B3 and piano in it too I believe. You can always find a nice used GR33 that only has synth tones in it. I played all the cover tune keyboard heavy/ guitar stuff that way for years.

Good Luck!

jgcable

Quote from: Toby Krebs on September 24, 2013, 04:03:49 PM
Very often I just use the GR55 PCM synth tones and acoustic guitar sounds and get my high gain stuff from my Line 6 M13 and a tube amp. I play all the same stuff you do. I play Burn by Mr. Blackmore this way and have patches for many Whitesnake type tunes in my GR55. Here I Go Again has some B3 and piano in it too I believe. You can always find a nice used GR33 that only has synth tones in it. I played all the cover tune keyboard heavy/ guitar stuff that way for years.

Good Luck!

Thanks for the response Toby. I could see how your live rig would work because you are going from an M13 into a tube amp.  That Line 6 stomp box modeler is still a modeling signal and tone. For instance.... when I used a Line 6 Vetta 2 live I also had a Roland VG88. They played fairly nicely together because they are digital modeling based tones. What I want to know is when you take a GR55 and a super high gain Mesa Boogie Rectifier half stack how to work together?  I don't want to go from a totally analog tube driven high gain sound to a digital sound. 
Recently I saw a band where the guitar player had a Bogner Line 6 modeling head and a Peavey 5150 head with two 4 x 12 cabs and an amp switching system on the floor. When he switched from the Bogner tube driven modeling head to the 5150 there was a noticeable difference in tone and not in a good way. 

Elantric

#14
QuoteMaybe 5 songs out of 35.  I mainly want to add a nice synth pad or string ensemble behind the clean parts of some songs. I have never had any luck getting a convincing heavy guitar tone out of a modeling amp and I have owned just about every modeling rig on the planet.  I always fall back to either my Mesa Single Rectifier or my Peavey 5150-II heads and 4 x 12 cabs.    I have been looking at the GR55 but it seems that most players don't use them the way I want to use it. I just want backing synth pads, string pads, piano pads during the clean parts of songs


I often run two cables from the guitar -

* 1/4" Guitar cable feeds my separate Guitar Floor FX then into a Tube Guitar amp.

*  13 pin cable feeds GR-55 and I will use a Synth only patch, and use the GR-55 Expression pedal to blend it in Gr-55 output feeds a separate FRFR Amp or PA.


To use one 13 pin  cable from the guitar, Many folks modify the GR-55 to provide a straight 1/4" analog "Normal Guitar Out" jack  upstream in the circuit before any signal hits the GR-55's internal A/D convertor. This mod yields much lower noise floor than using the factory GR-55 "Guitar Out Jack" - which has proven to be too noisy to feed a high gain Marshall  type Rock & Roll amp.

Details here:

* DIY GR-55 guitar pickup input output fx loop Mod with Pictures!
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3994.0

Toby Krebs

A clarification. Yes I know the M13 is modelling stompboxes I only use it for convenience. My other board has a Butler Real Tube pedal-Boss DS1-Dunlop Fuzz Face-2 delay pedals and 2 chorus pedals which I often use with a 1982 JCM 800 combo that will peel the paint off the walls.An iconic high gain tone. Very little difference in how I use them with the GR55 or any other synth GK device. Use the volume pedal on the GR55 to bring in any PCM sound you want with whatever guitar tone you are using. Very simple to do.Turn off all the guitar modelling in the GR55. Write a bank or 2 of keyboard tones and your done.You are wanting to use it in the most simple way and that's a good thing. I play all these sounds during quiet and loud passages of lots of tunes many times with clean/dist. guitar and strings(White Room) dist. guitar/ synth pad (Counting Blue Cars) etc...I incorporate the GR55 easily into any pedal-amp setup I am using because I run it into it's own amp and it's own channel on the FOH mixer. They are two separate things and I think of them that way.

underrock

Thank you, Toby

That is a great clarification as a departure point for live use of the GR55. I am a new user and your approach is going to help me a  lot. Thanks again.

muso.greg

+1 with Toby.  8)
I don't have the same high quality or range of gear as he does but I do run into a pedal board (G System and miscellaneous dirt, etc pedals) then a Mesa Boogie for the guitar sounds, and I use the GR55 for acoustic, synth pads, piano appegios, etc into a preamp and the desk. I usually use the 2 cable method but I am thinking I may mod the GR55. I actually (thought I) stole the idea from the Edge (U2) with the way he uses multiple volume/expression pedals to introduce the guitar/synth/whatever. I use midi for some of the more complex setups with it running the floor board, GR55 and occasionally the amp channels. But I always make sure the setup can be used 'on the fly' if I want to, so if a song comes up that I need sounds that aren't in the midi presets I can 'do a dance' and get it pretty quickly. I still have some loops so that I know I can hit a particular sound real quick if I need to. The setup is a bit big for some of he venues I play but I can pull any sound I need  ;D

mdortona

JG,

Like Tony and the other folks, I run the GR-55 L/R outs to the PA and my guitar output goes into my pedalboard and into my Boogie Express or what ever amp(s) I'm using that night. The GR is only used for different parts of songs (e.g. flutes in "Can't You See", horns in "Call Me The Breeze", organ in "Born To Be Wild" etc) and I have do not use the COSM amp models. Sometimes the GK is used in tandem with the guitar as well. Pretty simple set up that gets the job done. I do not and would not use the GTR output on the GR, as others have warned against. The only thing I would suggest is to arrange you patches according to your set lists. If you need to use more than one patch per song, either put them on two adjacent footswitches or better yet, setup the "vol pedal" to toggle between patches depending if the pedal is fully up or fully down. Good luck!

Matt