GR-55 - GK3 guitar out not working

Started by Elantric, February 16, 2011, 10:13:09 AM

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Toby Krebs

The wedding went very well. Must have as we received an additional 50 dollar tip each along with our 380 to 550 dollar per man compensation. Yes it was a good day! The GR55 was once again a versatile monster. Used it solo for the first 90 minutes to play jazz standards along with a composition or two of my own and a couple of backing tracks(On Broadway etc...). After that 4 of the finest musicians in my town joined me for a 2 hours of dance music though we could have played just about anything we wanted to. Funk-Rock-Hip Hop etc...the GR55 and it's new effect loop delivered everything I needed and did it without being a distraction in any way. Because I am now able to have two or three levels of gain in one patch it is almost exactly like playing a conventional rig feel wise and tone wise I would put the GR55s amp modelling up against anything even Axe/Fractal/Kemper/Eleven Rack/Singer/Ford/Chrysler/Toyota etc...well you get the idea. It's awful darn good! So if you want a lot more out of your GR55 hack that doggy or get one of the cool breakout boxes from one of the guys one the forum. Makes a world of difference!

gumtown

I have had my GR-55 'modded' for a good couple of years now, although being a bass player, i still use it in a similar way.
It gets used in a few different configuations, it has a Tech21 Vt-Bass (analog Ampeg emulation) preamp pedal in the loop when used direct to PA. I like to have real knobs to tweak my level and tone.
It has also been used in 4CM (four cable method) configuration, by using a regular guitar/bass amp with effect loop, and connected like..
GR-55 loop out > amp input.
amp FX send > GR-55 loop return.
GR-55 L/Mono output > Amp Fx Return.
This allows just the guitar/bass normal pickup to pass through the amp's preamp tone shaping section, return back to the GR-55 for effects and mixing in the PCM synth, or modeled tones run via the GR-55 preamps, back into the amp's power amp section (via the FX return).
That allows the PCM synth to pass to the amp without the preamp colouration.

My dilema now is I have recently (being last year) picked a new Marshall VBA400 bass amp, but it's FX loop is pre-EQ, the Vt-Bass pedal does not do it justice, running two preamp's in series, so it's had to go, and the synth tones are muffled, as my previous setup uses reasonably full range speakers.
Although last Saturday night's gig went well as i decided to use both bass rigs just out of pure self indulgent spite (because I can) @ 850 watts.
The GR-55 Left-out ran to one and the GR-55 right-out ran the other .....

I was suitably impressed.!!!  :)


Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Toby Krebs

Big Bad Fat TONE!!!! Nice! I wish the bass players I work with would embrace some technology as you have. They seem to only bring a bass -a  cable and an amp if I'm lucky! Keep pushing the envelope Gumtown!

PonyK

Hi- my first time out here, just trying to get some answers... I got the Gr-55 and Gk-3 (over kill. granted) to try to take some of the sounds in my, and have the printed out for me using MIDI Instrument into Nation Software for guitar. So long story short, if it isn't too late...., I found some nice sounds that where clean and pleasant, and did my thing w/ the software. and then on my own, just played with all the 'cool' sounds that could be made.... tried to learn some phrasing for other instruments, that you really cant play like a guitar, and make it sound like a flute. well, anyway, I was doing most of the of this at home w/ headphones on, and really didnt dig into the idea of trying to to get the Mix, or guitar only until just recently. I just figured the that in the past when I tried to get mix or just guitar sounds, I was on a path that didnt allow it, and I honestly didn't worry about it, Now to the real point (aren't you glad?) i read and read,a dn played w/ the rig, and saw the differences stated about the OUTOUT Jack, and saw Youtube videos saying there is a Global way to get the Guitar Pickups to be available in ALL Patches with a single setup.And was getting Pumped! here we go!!!!! but Nada! So I is REALLY likely that ai am doing something wrong in the global part of the setup, Bu have come to realize that yes i can get sound - plain flat dry sound out of the OUTOUT Jack, and even out of the Left mono jack; but I dont want to have set up Two systems to do what I was led to believe would play out of a single amp! And/or just the headset from the phones on the GR-55 itself...... So I guess my Rant/Question is I have No sound from my Mix or Guitar only, what am i doing wrong? Or, will it just not happen? can I reasonably to have a synth/mix/both from one amp, or the headset phones from the back of the GR-55?    ???  WOW, sorry didn't to go off like that! Any thoughts?  Thanks, in advance :'(

gumtown

#204
Quote from: PonyK on September 24, 2013, 04:09:21 AM
Hi- my first time out here, just trying to get some answers... I got the Gr-55 and Gk-3 (over kill. granted) to try to take some of the sounds in my, and have the printed out for me using MIDI Instrument into Nation Software for guitar. So long story short, if it isn't too late...., I found some nice sounds that where clean and pleasant, and did my thing w/ the software. and then on my own, just played with all the 'cool' sounds that could be made.... tried to learn some phrasing for other instruments, that you really cant play like a guitar, and make it sound like a flute. well, anyway, I was doing most of the of this at home w/ headphones on, and really didnt dig into the idea of trying to to get the Mix, or guitar only until just recently. I just figured the that in the past when I tried to get mix or just guitar sounds, I was on a path that didnt allow it, and I honestly didn't worry about it, Now to the real point (aren't you glad?) i read and read,a dn played w/ the rig, and saw the differences stated about the OUTOUT Jack, and saw Youtube videos saying there is a Global way to get the Guitar Pickups to be available in ALL Patches with a single setup.And was getting Pumped! here we go!!!!! but Nada! So I is REALLY likely that ai am doing something wrong in the global part of the setup, Bu have come to realize that yes i can get sound - plain flat dry sound out of the OUTOUT Jack, and even out of the Left mono jack; but I dont want to have set up Two systems to do what I was led to believe would play out of a single amp! And/or just the headset from the phones on the GR-55 itself...... So I guess my Rant/Question is I have No sound from my Mix or Guitar only, what am i doing wrong? Or, will it just not happen? can I reasonably to have a synth/mix/both from one amp, or the headset phones from the back of the GR-55?    ???  WOW, sorry didn't to go off like that! Any thoughts?  Thanks, in advance :'(
Welcome aboard, Your question come up here many times per week, the simple answer is the GK mix switch does not work 'out of the box' and requires some settings changes as in this thread topic link here.
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3402.0

I recommend read all the articals in the top section of the "GR-55 Reference Library", much vital information on getting the most from your GR-55
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4006.0

Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Gaustu

Quote from:  Elantric on April 10, 2012, 07:17:18 AM
Good info - thanks for posting

Nice concept - However you must remember the big culprit in the poor "normal Pickup" signal path is upstream at the source - the crappy op amp buffer inside the GK-3.


I am puzzled with these words.  There is NJM2068V using as op amp and it is high performance, LOW NOISE amplifier. and it is in the best class of such a kind on the market. I cannot see why to call it the crappy.

Another thing I was really surprised reading this thread is the noisy guitar out. Because when I tested to use it for feeding it my next gear (NI guitar rig) which is set to high gained overdrives I don't observe more noise (white noise, hiss) then from directly connected magn pu to the same input... My pu is SD TB-4. With my ears I can hear a small difference in noise levels (1 db easily, and this is not enough so far for saying about noise issue if the difference is so in the output). I doubt my GR-55 is made of another electronic unites, though I got it month ago.
What can I say about the noise issue is only that this happens if the setting of NORMAL PICKUP LEVEL in the patch is much less then 100
Parker PDF85 modified: Sustainiac, SD TB-4, Piezo Hexpander 13 pin out.
GR-55 mod with 13 din thru, 6 analog outputs D-Sub => Presonus FS Mobile  8 analog inputs.
NI Reactor matchHEX Guitar Framer Ensemble custom.

HCarlH

Thanks to BD for this mod!   :)

I had quit using mine live due to the NOIZE. The Guitar Out to channel 3 of my Boogie Mark V made it sound like an attack of angry bees amplified through a Marshall stack on 11. I've already tested it with my Kemper and it's usable. All I need to do is use an EQ pedal to restore the slight dulling of the highs before the Kemper or my Mark V. It's worth it to not have to use the 2 cable method. I used stiff copper wire for the mod. I was worried I would melt the solder on the board and have it overlap and short either of the adjoining pins. I pre-tinned the copper wire and soldered it straight up and parallel with the pin. I went ahead and drilled a hole in the case. I never usually sell my gear and if so, I will emphasize the better tone with the mod.

I'm going to simply use the modeled guitars with the internal COSM amps. They don't compare to my Boogie or Kemper BUT I have found them to be a different flavor from what I am used to. (They're great if you're in a Motley Crue tribute band and need that ratty metal sound with a lot of treble).  My most recent discovery is that any amp I've brought up sounds better right away with the DYN57 mic. The condenser types sound phasy to my ears. I may try and create some new amp patches for one of my foo foo restaurant band gigs. There's only enough room for me to stand completely still and the GR-55 would get me through the gig with my K10 as a monitor.

Would like to see more of Tony K's GR gigs on video!  :)

GR-55 (or) Fishman TP + Kemper Profiling Rack -->> 
QSC K10 -->> FOH
Fender Squier Stratocaster Bullet (w/GK3), Ibanez AM93 (w/FTP pickup),  Stratocaster (w/FTP pickup)

Telecaster, Charvel SoCal ProMod, Gibson Les Paul, PV Wolfgang,

Toby Krebs

I don't do much video recording of myself but you can look up "Tony Craig and Double Booked" on youtube and see a little bit of what I do as a leader once in a great long while. Also the band I play covers with a lot is called "Wild Hare" and their may be some stuff on youtube  of me playing with them. The drummer has a giant lions mane of black curly hair so you'll know it's the right band if you can find  any of it. As far as drilling the GR55 I have drilled holes in both of mine as I buy these things for my work and don't care about selling them. No one in my area would want them anyway. Too damn hard to use LOL!

Howcome

#208
I don't know if this is already passed by here, but I am facing the next challenge in rig-building. For the main guitar sounds I use a Line6 Pod XT Pro, and I have added a GR55 to it.
The GR55 guitar-out is connected to the POD input in order to use just one cable. This works well, except for these occasions where the 'Normal Pickup' level is set to 0 in the GR patch. So, in order to have the guitar sound coming out of the POD and the PCM sounds outof the GR, I always need to set the PU volume to 100, which mixes it with the PCM sounds as well.

Apparently, the guitar out signal is 'post level'. Is there any way to set it to pre-level other than heating up the soldering iron?

CodeSmart

#209
Have you set SYSTEM->GUITAR OUT->SOURCE = NORMAL PU ?
and disable the normal pu in the patch, but with vol=100
But I got more gear than I need...and I like it!

Howcome

I did try that combination, indeed, but the whole config just gets to complicated with that. Having a separate guitar circuit that I can use regardless of the patch setting in the GR.

gumtown

If you don't require the modeled guitar tones in your outboard path,
then you might concider devaluing your GR-55 with this mod

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3994.75

Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

CodeSmart

Another nondestructive method (but associated with a cost) would be
a box from Wayne or myself and you get a guitar selector in the process.
The GKMX units has a "Send" jack that can go directly to an amp and I
think Wayne's units has a similar output...

I think most people learn to live with the way it is.
However, the guitar out on the GR-55 is a bit noisy but if the Line6 pod has a noise gate it would help
to activate it.

But I got more gear than I need...and I like it!

Toby Krebs

Quote from:  gumtown on February 16, 2014, 10:44:24 AM
If you don't require the modeled guitar tones in your outboard path,
then you might concider devaluing your GR-55 with this mod

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3994.75

Drill Baby Drill!!!(and solder too).Lately I am not using the 3 or 4 pedals in my modded GR55 loop anymore just a wah  pedal and a  Talk Box which both have buffers for a good impedance match.Love the flexibility of this and do not miss the awful guitar out on the GR55. IMHO it is not good enough for any serious work.

BackDAWman

Has anyone looked into why the 'Guitar Out' is so noisy? Has anyone got a schematic?

Gaustu

#215
Hi there.

Do I have an exclusive version of GR-55?

http://ge0eg.ho.ua/noiseA.wav

http://ge0eg.ho.ua/noiseB.wav

One of them is recorded: 1/4 jack from guitar norm PU to the sound card 1st input directly.
Another: from GR-55 norm PU guitar out to the sound card 2nd input.
Both signals calibrated before recording to be of equal level.
They both sent to different channels of recording software through the Guitar Rig 5 VST.

Now define what is what?
Personally I hear the slight difference in character of background noise.
One of them has some additional portion of bckrnd noise because is going through:1) buffer oamp in hex board out to pin#7; 2) output buffer of GR-55. Both are made low-noise oamps as I see. so the differense is not tragical anyway for post-processing by Amps

P.S. I made those wav files 24 bit for most objective evaluation

If you will use less then 100 value for NORMAL PICKUP in Tone page setting you probably will get the worse signal/noise ratio at guitar out

For any case if that link doesn't work I attach here mp3
Parker PDF85 modified: Sustainiac, SD TB-4, Piezo Hexpander 13 pin out.
GR-55 mod with 13 din thru, 6 analog outputs D-Sub => Presonus FS Mobile  8 analog inputs.
NI Reactor matchHEX Guitar Framer Ensemble custom.

shawnb


There are a number of solutions posted in this thread, which is a sticky in the GR-55 Reference Library:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=5456.0

Solutions range from patch recommendations to mods. 
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Toby Krebs

I understand that it doesn't bother everybody. Here is what I know-when I plug a cable from the Guitar Out jack on the GR55 into my Marshall JCM800/Fender Blues Deluxe Reissue/Egnater Tweaker etc...it sounds like crap to me. Noisy and weak.Plugged straight in or even passing through my GT10/HD300 etc...the tone is good and strong and detailed.If you haven't noticed it then don't do anything about it. I modded both my GR55s' because I found the normal guitar pickup tone sounded strangled/choked/slightly muted/not pleasing to me.

Gaustu

#218
QuoteI understand that it doesn't bother everybody
There is nothing that may bother, just an illusion.

I dont want to discourage anybody here to drill holes in the unit (I have done a lot in mine) but it's a good idea to check something more out before to drill. And find out what is the real case of your worse sound/noise/crap etc.
The case may be that is not a noisy output at all, as tests tell.

Dont forget, when you make your A/B the way you do, you get the output level from GUITAR OUT 6 dB higher then output level from your guitar directly (that's it). So if you drive your amp at high gain from GUITAR OUT you get just +6 dB of the noise along with a signal and this is what you hear. The effective signal is under compression of Amp and does not grow, the background  noise increases. And you feel like your sound is a sludge. If you are in slightly bad mood, you may feel your sound is even worse in power of 2.
Add too, both signals, one from GUIT OUT and other from 7th pin are absolutely equal in their spectrums.
There are dozen of sound illusions
Dont be hypnotized by 100 opinions and make your own precise, objective and  thought tests before you will drill and solder.
Parker PDF85 modified: Sustainiac, SD TB-4, Piezo Hexpander 13 pin out.
GR-55 mod with 13 din thru, 6 analog outputs D-Sub => Presonus FS Mobile  8 analog inputs.
NI Reactor matchHEX Guitar Framer Ensemble custom.

Howcome

I am not a huge fn of drilling holes, so as a compromise to this, i only drilled one eventually. I have created a clean guitar-out coming directly from the pin 7 of the 13pin connector. This output goes into the POD so I can use that independantly of the selected patch. It is just a Y-split so the signal goes directly into the GR as well.
I am testing this at the moment and it looks good, without interference between the two inputs. Therefor I have not build a buffer for the pod output yet, but am prepared when this has to be in.
Thanks for the thoughts and suggestions!

mbenigni

QuoteThe case may be that is not a noisy output at all, as tests tell.

I can't claim to have broken out an oscilloscope or anything, but the difference between straight pin 7 output and the "Guitar Out" jack is night and day.  We're not talking about cork-sniffing territory here.  And it can't be down to a matter of +6 db - the signal to noise ratio is much higher at pin 7 than at the Guitar Out.

Not saying the mod is for everyone; pin 7 doesn't give you COSM or any of the benefits that come with that, and modding will lessen the resale value of your GR55, in addition to voiding a warranty.  But noise on Guitar Out is, unfortunately, a reality.

Now once you've tapped pin 7, you can start to go crazy trying to decide whether to use it, or whether to go for the slightly improved tone with a cable from your guitar's 1/4" output.  That's cork-sniffer/ subjective territory.

Howcome

I will go slightly crazy, I guess, but not just whether to use the mod or a second cable. I will however need to figure out a setting that has some staying power. So, when to use the guitar-only patches of the GR or use the POD patches, which have somewhat more 'body', ihmo.
I have a general assignment using a control pedal to cross-fade between modelled and normal pickup sound. This shows that the PU sound is louder and has more bass to it. I have used both a strat and a LesPaul with identical 'modelled' equivalent.

I don't bother about resale value.. Once I buy it, I never sell stuff, but I am being treated for that. :)

mrowley

#222
I am relatively new here.
For years I used a GR20 synth together with a Boss GT5 looped in.
The GR20 has a Guitar Out Signal AND a Return (to mix the signal from an effects pedal in typical loop fashion back into the GR20 Output. This was a nice tidy cabling solution and the GK3 allowed me to select and dial volumes flexibly between Synth and GT5.

I was a little taken back to realise this option has not been offered on the GR55. I am now trying to phase out the GT5 (after 17 years of trusty Service!....wow). I will do this transition slowly to give myself time to develop GR55 patches utilising both normal mag pickups and/or modelled and synth sounds (by the way the work already done here in the forum in writing software such as Floorboard and uploading patches with various switching options is I must say ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT! Thanks to all contributors!).

My plan is to initially continue using the GT5 utilising the Guitar Out Signal (normal pickups only) and then mixing the GR55 and GT5 Outputs with an ART SplitMix4 passive 4 Channel Splitter/Mixer for one final signal to the mixing board. It will allow me time to phase in the GR55 and phase out the GT5 (which I will surely eventually keep somewhere as a backup).

I have read threads here on the GR55s guitar out signal quality but have not noticed a significant drop in GT5 quality when fed with the GR55 guitar out signal. Maybe the GT5 doesn't notice it like some, or maybe I'm going deaf after 17 years GT5! :o
Actually after disconnecting the GR20 from the GT5 I DID notice the GT5 actually needed more than just a clean bypass signal and so I had to boost most GT5 patch Levels when using it alone again.

Q: What do the specs and the Roland techos say about this guitar out signal? What is it's reason of existence? Assuming anyone can just feed Mag pickups direct to an effects pedal or amp and have the GR55 Modelling/Synths only living on the signal of the hex pickup, why bother putting the guitar out option in the GR55 without also offering a return/mix solution (good old effects loop setup)?

Elantric

#223
Quote
Q: What do the specs and the Roland techos say about this guitar out signal? What is it's reason of existence?

The GR-55 "Guitar Out" is intended to provide a direct output from either the normal Mag Pickups or COSM Modeled pickup tone and COSM Alt tuning - to feed a separate Guitar MFX unit or traditional stomp box / tube amp for normal guitar tones.
In this manner a guitar with GK-3 and GR-55 with the GR-55's Guitar Out jack assigned to feed COSM Modeled pickup tones can emulate a similar function as a Line 6 Variax DSP Modeling Guitar.

In practice the GR-55's Guitar out suffers a fair amount of noise which is only revealed when the separate Guitar MFX unit is using a high gain Rock/Metal Blues type solo tone. Careful use of the Noise Suppressor in either the GR-55 or separate Guitar MFX unit typically tames this "hiss".
     

Gaustu

I have redone my test again and again using precision meters and I am under a big puzzle why you guys are insisting that guitar out is more noisier then from 7 pin directly. This is a big mistake of yours.

I realize that it can be noisy in two cases only:
1) you setup in PATCH OTHER page source as BOTH, so additional noise from modeling source is added.
2) you set the level in EDIT->TONE tab less then full 100. So you are forced to rise the gain of your external Amp to match the gain you need thus rising a noise level. You send a weak signal to guitar out spoiling a signal to noise ratio.
The combination of both cases give the worse result.

There is a myth about bad signal quality of guitar out.
I made a video of my test with new samples added for objective information. if somebody is really interested.
Too many subjective opinions and words but no any facts and prooves from you who believes in this myth.
Parker PDF85 modified: Sustainiac, SD TB-4, Piezo Hexpander 13 pin out.
GR-55 mod with 13 din thru, 6 analog outputs D-Sub => Presonus FS Mobile  8 analog inputs.
NI Reactor matchHEX Guitar Framer Ensemble custom.